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07-06-2012, 10:23 AM
  #726
orange is better
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
50 goals are a lot though. I would love to see anything above 30 from him on a consistent basis. Giroux and Ryan would be deadly for years and he would be worth giving up Voracek plus for easily.
Well I actually agree that 50 probably isn't reasonable to expect, which I states 2 posts ago. I think 40 is a completely realistic expectation though.

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07-06-2012, 10:27 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Nor is Bobby Ryan. I agree that the proposed deals may be a little much for Ryan, but I was more just talking about the person (not sure if it was you or not) that said he wouldn't even do Voracek for Ryan. That is just ridiculous.
Ryan is closer to his peak than Voracek is. I agree that Ryan is way better, though, and he's more of a sure value. Voracek for Ryan would be a clear no from Anaheim. I'd do the deal, I'd just keep a 1st out of it (or Laughton). Voracek + 1st or Laughton + Gus. I don't think Anaheim would take that, but I wouldn't give more than that. If we need to pay more, it doesn't worth it imo.

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07-06-2012, 10:30 AM
  #728
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
Its not like Ryan had bad linemates on the Ducks. I could see Nash hitting 50 with Giroux but Ryan will probably stay around the 35 goal area which isn't bad at all.
Considering that Scott Hartnell was close to 40 playing on G's wing, I could definitely see Ryan hitting 45-50.

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07-06-2012, 10:30 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Well Ryan is scoring 30+ goals a season. I assume you were pointing out that Ryan has "peaked" at this point, because you think Voracek has not (which is what others are saying). If he wants to reach Bobby Ryan levels, he would have to double his goals. If you don't think Voracek will will improve (or not to those levels) then consider the comment directed at the others saying he is only 22 and will improve.

As far as Schenn is concerned I drew the same inference. You were asserting that Ryan has peaked because he is 25-26, and while you may not have said it, but others have so I was simply pointing it out.
I'm not really sure how you got all of that out of what I said.

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07-06-2012, 10:38 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I'm not really sure how you got all of that out of what I said.
Really? In a thread where people are saying that Voracek has not reached his peak yet so he is more valuable (or equally valuable) than Ryan and you say that Ryan has already reached his peak, you don't see where I drew the inference that you were saying Voracek will catch up to Ryan? You may not have been saying that, but it is certainly a fair inference to draw.

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07-06-2012, 10:42 AM
  #731
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I say that we keep all of young guys and try and have 1 season without a major overhaul again. We have lost JVR, Carle and Jags already. I say let the kids play and then re-visit Ryan later on. Or wait 3 years and we know that the then 28 year old will want to be here for free!

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07-06-2012, 10:45 AM
  #732
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It's not exactly rocket science that a 25 year old is at/closer to his peak than a 22 year old.

Voracek is being underrated here. He's immensely skilled and is still young for a guy thats put 4 years in the league. I see no reason that he won't be a 60 point player in his prime over the next few seasons.

He won't be a 30-40 goal scorer, but thats not his game. He's a different type of winger than Ryan. He's also cost controlled and is unlikely to make as much as Ryan while we hold his rights. That's very valuable IMO.

I value goal scoring wingers slightly more than playmaking but all factors considered, I would not pay much more on top of Voracek to get Ryan. This team also needs to stop losing first round picks so I would not be in favor of Voracek + 1st or Voracek + Laughton

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07-06-2012, 10:46 AM
  #733
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Love how people are making out that Ryan would be a lock for 50 goals next to Giroux.

You people do realise that there were two 50 goal scorers in the NHL this year right? One of them was the best player in the league, the other is the best sniper in the league.

Ryan isn't on par with either of them.

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07-06-2012, 10:52 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
50 goals are a lot though. I would love to see anything above 30 from him on a consistent basis. Giroux and Ryan would be deadly for years and he would be worth giving up Voracek plus for easily.
I love this logic. Nash has bad line mates so he'll be a 50 goal scorer. Ryan has good line mates so he won't be a 50 goal scorer.

I don't think either is likely.

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07-06-2012, 10:57 AM
  #735
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Just to point something out for consideration. Bobby Ryan has scored 30+ goals per season in the NHL each year he has been here. He is older, but has played the same amount of years. Voracek has played four years and has not scored 20 goals yet. He is younger but with more experience at the same age as Ryan, scored 13 fewer goals.

I'm not saying Voracek will not improve, but to conclude that simply because he is 22 he will be better or as good, or even as valuable, is ridiculous. I like Voracek. I want him to re-sign. But if given the choice between Voracek and Ryan, I'd take Ryan every single day of the week. I am not sure what I would trade for him, however. I think the Voracek, Laughton, 1st may be a bit much, but I certainly wouldn't scoff at that deal like it was some kind of insult.

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07-06-2012, 11:15 AM
  #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Just to point something out for consideration. Bobby Ryan has scored 30+ goals per season in the NHL each year he has been here. He is older, but has played the same amount of years. Voracek has played four years and has not scored 20 goals yet. He is younger but with more experience at the same age as Ryan, scored 13 fewer goals.

I'm not saying Voracek will not improve, but to conclude that simply because he is 22 he will be better or as good, or even as valuable, is ridiculous. I like Voracek. I want him to re-sign. But if given the choice between Voracek and Ryan, I'd take Ryan every single day of the week. I am not sure what I would trade for him, however. I think the Voracek, Laughton, 1st may be a bit much, but I certainly wouldn't scoff at that deal like it was some kind of insult.
Agreed completely. People completely neglect the fact that Ryan brings us closet to a cup now and in the future. We need to grab a scoring winger like him to take the next step. ESPECIALLY of hartnell doesn't resign for a discount next year and leaves via FA. Do you think voracek can replace hartnell as well as making up the numbers people claim
He will put up to match the production of bobby ryan?

I like jake, he's a good young player. But Ryan is a better player. It's really obvious and idk how it can be debated.

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07-06-2012, 11:34 AM
  #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I love this logic. Nash has bad line mates so he'll be a 50 goal scorer. Ryan has good line mates so he won't be a 50 goal scorer.

I don't think either is likely.
Nash is one of the best wings in the league that has been stuck on a crappy team in Columbus. Nash would be deadly with Giroux.

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07-06-2012, 11:35 AM
  #738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Agreed completely. People completely neglect the fact that Ryan brings us closet to a cup now and in the future. We need to grab a scoring winger like him to take the next step. ESPECIALLY of hartnell doesn't resign for a discount next year and leaves via FA. Do you think voracek can replace hartnell as well as making up the numbers people claim
He will put up to match the production of bobby ryan?

I like jake, he's a good young player. But Ryan is a better player. It's really obvious and idk how it can be debated.
And those two would be able to play together for years to come. That is a huge step we need to take.

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07-06-2012, 11:42 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
It's not exactly rocket science that a 25 year old is at/closer to his peak than a 22 year old.
That is assuming everyone peaks at the same age.

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07-06-2012, 11:45 AM
  #740
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I don't get the Ryan infatuation.

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07-06-2012, 11:49 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Mkoll View Post
That is assuming everyone peaks at the same age.
No, its assuming the majority of people peak around the same time frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I don't get the Ryan infatuation.
Uh..He's a a perrenial 40 goal scorer, that has been a PPG forward more than once.

Oh, wait.

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07-06-2012, 11:55 AM
  #742
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[QUOTE=Protest;52217277]No, its assuming the majority of people peak around the same time frame.


[QUOTE]

I am sure there are a plethora of players from all over sports who peak at different ages.

There is no static peak age. And using words like "majority" and "around" shows the diversity and differences between those players.

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07-06-2012, 11:57 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I don't get the Ryan infatuation.
I don't get this lack of infatuation for Ryan

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07-06-2012, 12:05 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Mkoll View Post
I am sure there are a plethora of players from all over sports who peak at different ages.

There is no static peak age. And using words like "majority" and "around" shows the diversity and differences between those players.
There are, but if you look at statistics for hockey broken down by players' ages, the best offensive seasons come between age 23 and 28, with the peak years being 25 and 26. So, the majority of players have their highest offensive production at that age. (Bobby Ryan's age)

When you're expecting something to happen would you place your bet with the majority, or the exception to the rule?

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07-06-2012, 12:09 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
I don't get this lack of infatuation for Ryan
People act like he's playing on some crap line with bad players, and Giroux will magically allow him to finally blossom. That's not the case. I'm tired of trading picks and young players, especially when they've demonstrated that they can be very good, so we can get stars approaching the wrong end of their prime. Why not keep Voracek, stop shaking up the core by moving notable pieces every year, and try to build a team for once?

Edit: I know, Ryan is already in his prime and will be for a few more years. But we have yet to see the best of Voracek, I believe. Considering what Voracek has shown, I'd rather hold onto him.

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07-06-2012, 12:29 PM
  #746
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This discussion has really gone in a direction that isnt getting at the real issue.

The issue isn't whether Ryan is a better player than Voracek, but if he's the right piece that fills a need on THIS team, at the expense of what it would take to get him.

Ryan is a luxury on this team. It's hard to justify that he's really filling a hole that needs to be filled. Factor that in with salary considerations, and the fact that the Flyers prospect pool cannot afford to be further depleted right now, and a move like this doesn't make sense.

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07-06-2012, 12:33 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
This discussion has really gone in a direction that isnt getting at the real issue.

The issue isn't whether Ryan is a better player than Voracek, but if he's the right piece that fills a need on THIS team, at the expense of what it would take to get him.

Ryan is a luxury on this team. It's hard to justify that he's really filling a hole that needs to be filled. Factor that in with salary considerations, and the fact that the Flyers prospect pool cannot afford to be further depleted right now, and a move like this doesn't make sense.
I think Ryan fills a need, but the cost to acquire him will create more needs. This is the type of team you keep together and add free agents to. You have young, good players, with low cap hits, and that is the type of thing you keep together. I'd rather add Semin for just the cost of cap space, than Ryan for 2 roster players and a 1st.

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07-06-2012, 12:38 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
It's not exactly rocket science that a 25 year old is at/closer to his peak than a 22 year old.

Voracek is being underrated here. He's immensely skilled and is still young for a guy thats put 4 years in the league. I see no reason that he won't be a 60 point player in his prime over the next few seasons.

He won't be a 30-40 goal scorer, but thats not his game. He's a different type of winger than Ryan. He's also cost controlled and is unlikely to make as much as Ryan while we hold his rights. That's very valuable IMO.

I value goal scoring wingers slightly more than playmaking but all factors considered, I would not pay much more on top of Voracek to get Ryan. This team also needs to stop losing first round picks so I would not be in favor of Voracek + 1st or Voracek + Laughton
How in the world can a 15-18 goal scorer (so far) be underrated? No one said he stinks, if anything everyone is agreeing that they like Jake, but for a proven 35 goal scorer, it's a no brainer to make the deal.

And Gus has little value, and our first round pick(20+) is essentially a crapshoot. So all you're really losing of REAL value is Jake. That's a steal of a trade, which is why it will neve happen.

I can't comprehend the concept of holding onto potential over proven. Makes zero sense to me.

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07-06-2012, 12:38 PM
  #749
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Yep. I do not like Semin, but I think signing him is better for the team overall than trading pieces for Ryan.

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07-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #750
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
How in the world can a 15-18 goal scorer (so far) be underrated? No one said he stinks, if anything everyone is agreeing that they like Jake, but for a proven 35 goal scorer, it's a no brainer to make the deal.

And Gus has little value, and our first round pick(20+) is essentially a crapshoot. So all you're really losing of REAL value is Jake. That's a steal of a trade, which is why it will neve happen.

I can't comprehend the concept of holding onto potential over proven. Makes zero sense to me.
Because scoring goals isn't the only skill set in the NHL. The advantage defensively is Voracek. Ryan floats and doesn't really work hard in his own zone. How is Voracek not proven? He's already proven he can atleast put up 40-50 points and be responsible defensively. He can continue to get better. He's only 22 years old. Ryan is about to reach his peak years in terms of goal scoring. It would be nice to have him with Giroux but its not really a need when there are options in free agency. Not for what Murray is asking.

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