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Zanon signing to set-up another move?

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Old
07-06-2012, 10:15 AM
  #26
Foppa
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I appreciate the optimisim but...

Their defense is way better. Johnson is good but he's not even Doughty on an off-year for Doughty. Mitchell and Scuderi are better shutdown guys than Hejda and O'Byrne. Voynov craps all over Wilson. And Greene is one of the best, meanest 3rd pairing guys in the league.

Their offense is way better. Look at those line comparisons. You have Duchene going up against Kopitar, PAP against Dustin Brown, an aging Hejduk against Williams, Stastny against Richards and David freaking Jones against Jeff Carter. Now our third line is really our first line and that may make things a tad more even but c'mon...not close.

And yes, Jon Quick IS that much better than Varlamov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Look at the Kings team this year. Is this defense really that better than ours?

Drew Doughty - Rob Scuderi
Willie Mitchell - Slava Voynov
Alec Martinez - Matt Greene
Davis Drewiske

Compare that to:

Eric Johnson - Shane O'Brien
Jan Hedja - Ryan O'Bryne
Ryan Wilson - Greg Zanon
Matt Hunwick

I actually think our is deeper and better.

Is Jon Quick that much better than Semyon Varlamov?

Are LA's top two lines better than ours? They are pretty close.

Dustin Brown - Anze Kopitar - Justin Williams
PA Parenteau - Matt Duchene - Milan Hejduk

Dustin Penner - Mike Richards - Jeff Carter
Jamie McGinn - Paul Stastny - David Jones

Is their checking line better than ours? I don't think their 3rd line can come close to ours.

Dwight King - Jarret Stoll - Trevor Lewis/Simon Gagne
Gabriel Landeskog - Ryan O'Reilly - Steve Downie

What about the 4th line? It's pretty close again.

Brad Richardson - Colin Frasor - Jordan Nolan
Cody McLeod - John Mitchell - Marc Olver/Chuck Kobasew

I think this team is ready to contend. If we can somehow manage to sign a vet like Doan to play alongside Duchene and save the rest of our cap money to re-sign our young players when they hit UFA status, we will be in good shape.

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07-06-2012, 10:46 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa View Post
I appreciate the optimisim but...

Their defense is way better. Johnson is good but he's not even Doughty on an off-year for Doughty. Mitchell and Scuderi are better shutdown guys than Hejda and O'Byrne. Voynov craps all over Wilson. And Greene is one of the best, meanest 3rd pairing guys in the league.

Their offense is way better. Look at those line comparisons. You have Duchene going up against Kopitar, PAP against Dustin Brown, an aging Hejduk against Williams, Stastny against Richards and David freaking Jones against Jeff Carter. Now our third line is really our first line and that may make things a tad more even but c'mon...not close.

And yes, Jon Quick IS that much better than Varlamov.
Lets not forget this is the Kings team that tried to trade Dustin Brown and could not score a goal if their life depended on it.

Their defense was crap. Those shut down guys you mentioned were getting walked all over.

Carter couldn't score goals. Richards stunk. They were not the same team in the regular season as the team that got hot with 10 games left in the season.

Skill wise, our team compares almost identically to LA. What the Avs do in the playoffs is another matter.

Matt Greene = Shane O'Brien
A young Doughty = Erik Johnson
Mitchell = Hedja
Voynov = Wilson

Not much difference IMO.

And I completly dis-agree about the forward lines. They are so close it's not even funny. The thing that makes us better is the O'Reilly line. Williams, Brown, Penner...nothing special. It's basically Kopitar, Carter, Williams, Brown and Richards vs. Duchene, Stastny, Parenteau, Landeskog and O'Reilly and I don't see a huge difference there. Throw in McGinn, Jones, Downie and Hedjuk....

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07-06-2012, 10:50 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Matt Greene = Shane O'Brien
Mitchell = Hedja
Voynov = Wilson
These three are not even close.

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07-06-2012, 10:54 AM
  #29
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LA's forward group is so much better than Colorado's. Their bottom six is worse, but it doesn't matter because of how much better their top six is. Brown, Kopitar, Richards, Williams, Carter, and Penner is a group that punishes you both physically and by putting pucks in the back of the net.

Depending on player progression, I don't think the Avalanche are too far away from SC contention, at least as a middle seed. I think the player additions so far this off-season have made Colorado a tad better, but definitely not good enough to draw comparisons to the Stanley Cup Champions.

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07-06-2012, 10:56 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
LA's forward group is so much better than Colorado's. Their bottom six is worse, but it doesn't matter because of how much better their top six is. Brown, Kopitar, Richards, Williams, Carter, and Penner is a group that punishes you both physically and by putting pucks in the back of the net.

Depending on player progression, I don't think the Avalanche are too far away from SC contention, at least as a middle seed. I think the player additions so far this off-season have made Colorado a tad better, but definitely not good enough to draw comparisons to the Stanley Cup Champions.
Agree, and it also comes down to when a player peaks in a season. You can't peak to early, you can't peak, or leave your run too late. LA times their run magnificently, and turned on the burners when required.

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07-06-2012, 10:59 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Lets not forget this is the Kings team that tried to trade Dustin Brown and could not score a goal if their life depended on it.

Their defense was crap. Those shut down guys you mentioned were getting walked all over.

Carter couldn't score goals. Richards stunk. They were not the same team in the regular season as the team that got hot with 10 games left in the season.

Skill wise, our team compares almost identically to LA. What the Avs do in the playoffs is another matter.

Matt Greene = Shane O'Brien
A young Doughty = Erik Johnson
Mitchell = Hedja
Voynov = Wilson

Not much difference IMO.

And I completly dis-agree about the forward lines. They are so close it's not even funny. The thing that makes us better is the O'Reilly line. Williams, Brown, Penner...nothing special. It's basically Kopitar, Carter, Williams, Brown and Richards vs. Duchene, Stastny, Parenteau, Landeskog and O'Reilly and I don't see a huge difference there. Throw in McGinn, Jones, Downie and Hedjuk....
I really appreciate the optimism, but the only point where we can boast being better than LA is on the third line. And our third line played significant minutes as our top line so that isn't saying much. Potentially, if everything worked just right, we'd be that good. But right now all we can say is EJ could be as good as Doughty, Elliott could step up as a number 2 D, Duchene could be an all-star, Stastny could return to being better than Richards...etc.

Hypotheticals, unfortunately, do not win hockey games.

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07-06-2012, 11:01 AM
  #32
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I don't see them making any trades until the start of the season.

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07-06-2012, 11:06 AM
  #33
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There's no point in comparing the Avs to the Kings right now, unless you're looking a few years back. And even then, the Kings team a few years ago was a lot different. The Kings got into the playoffs a few times and took their licks and came out better for it. The Avs need to start with that.

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07-06-2012, 11:12 AM
  #34
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Also, Kings roster is not the best in the NHL. So even if Avs would be as good, it would still give only a long shot for the Cup. That's what Kings had. And I'm willing to bet quite a lot that Kings doesn't repeat their success immediately. They had a hot goalie that took them much further than they should have went and their players had their best games at exactly right places. I'm not saying Kings win was all luck, but they needed a huge amount of luck there too. I'd say they are top-4 in West, so second round would be my guess for their 2013 playoff success.

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07-06-2012, 11:14 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Lets not forget this is the Kings team that tried to trade Dustin Brown and could not score a goal if their life depended on it.

Their defense was crap. Those shut down guys you mentioned were getting walked all over.

Carter couldn't score goals. Richards stunk. They were not the same team in the regular season as the team that got hot with 10 games left in the season.

Skill wise, our team compares almost identically to LA. What the Avs do in the playoffs is another matter.

Matt Greene = Shane O'Brien
A young Doughty = Erik Johnson
Mitchell = Hedja
Voynov = Wilson

Not much difference IMO.

And I completly dis-agree about the forward lines. They are so close it's not even funny. The thing that makes us better is the O'Reilly line. Williams, Brown, Penner...nothing special. It's basically Kopitar, Carter, Williams, Brown and Richards vs. Duchene, Stastny, Parenteau, Landeskog and O'Reilly and I don't see a huge difference there. Throw in McGinn, Jones, Downie and Hedjuk....
What are you talking about? Their defense (Scuderi and Mitchell especially) and Quick were the main reason they've made the playoffs.

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07-06-2012, 11:30 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Lets not forget this is the Kings team that tried to trade Dustin Brown and could not score a goal if their life depended on it.

Their defense was crap. Those shut down guys you mentioned were getting walked all over.

Carter couldn't score goals. Richards stunk. They were not the same team in the regular season as the team that got hot with 10 games left in the season.

Skill wise, our team compares almost identically to LA. What the Avs do in the playoffs is another matter.

Matt Greene = Shane O'Brien
A young Doughty = Erik Johnson
Mitchell = Hedja
Voynov = Wilson

Not much difference IMO.

And I completly dis-agree about the forward lines. They are so close it's not even funny. The thing that makes us better is the O'Reilly line. Williams, Brown, Penner...nothing special. It's basically Kopitar, Carter, Williams, Brown and Richards vs. Duchene, Stastny, Parenteau, Landeskog and O'Reilly and I don't see a huge difference there. Throw in McGinn, Jones, Downie and Hedjuk....
No.

First off, their defense never got "walked all over". They were losing games 1-0 and 2-1. Their defense and goaltending is what saved their ***** when their offense took most of the regular season off. The individuals on their blueline might be comparable to the Avs' own in regards to roles, but not in skill. Mitchell is one of the premier shutdown guys in the league. Saying that Hejda is his equal is an insult. And Johnson is a young Doughty? I thought Doughty was a young Doughty. With any luck Johnson will get to that level, taking the more traditional route for a d-man and growing into it over the course of 5+ seasons, whereas Doughty just sort of appeared, fully formed. But right now comparing the two makes you look like you wore your rose-colored glasses to bed and started dreaming. Also, I love Wilson. I think he has it in him to take a big step one of these days and become something pretty good. Nothing spectacular, but solid. The sort of guy just about any team would take. However, I also admit to being biased. I just like Wilson a lot. Voynov has twice his skill and potential. Any GM in the league would take Voynov over Wilson right now, and for good reason. The gulf between them will almost certainly grow wider in the coming years, despite my hopes for Wilson. Finally, Greene and O'Brien. We've all been pleasantly surprised by O'Brien. But mostly because our expectations were pretty damn low. Hopefully he keeps at it and can become as dependable as Greene has been for LA. Right now, that is not the case.

And as for the LA offense - they greatly underachieved last season. People had them slotted in as a contender but they somehow forgot to score goals. What we saw in the playoffs was much more in line with what that team was supposed to be all season. And if you can't see a difference between their forwards and ours, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe start watching baseball?

Sure, the Avs have got some good building blocks. With any luck and a year or two, they'll start realistically comparing to the Kings. But until those assets mature, it doesn't do anybody any good to overrate what they are.

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07-06-2012, 11:40 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hedgeduck View Post
I really appreciate the optimism, but the only point where we can boast being better than LA is on the third line. And our third line played significant minutes as our top line so that isn't saying much. Potentially, if everything worked just right, we'd be that good. But right now all we can say is EJ could be as good as Doughty, Elliott could step up as a number 2 D, Duchene could be an all-star, Stastny could return to being better than Richards...etc.
Hypotheticals, unfortunately, do not win hockey games.
Fair enough. Good points. I guess I look at our roster and see loads of un-tapped potential.

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Old
07-06-2012, 11:43 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Hennessy View Post
No.

First off, their defense never got "walked all over". They were losing games 1-0 and 2-1. Their defense and goaltending is what saved their ***** when their offense took most of the regular season off. The individuals on their blueline might be comparable to the Avs' own in regards to roles, but not in skill. Mitchell is one of the premier shutdown guys in the league. Saying that Hejda is his equal is an insult. And Johnson is a young Doughty? I thought Doughty was a young Doughty. With any luck Johnson will get to that level, taking the more traditional route for a d-man and growing into it over the course of 5+ seasons, whereas Doughty just sort of appeared, fully formed. But right now comparing the two makes you look like you wore your rose-colored glasses to bed and started dreaming. Also, I love Wilson. I think he has it in him to take a big step one of these days and become something pretty good. Nothing spectacular, but solid. The sort of guy just about any team would take. However, I also admit to being biased. I just like Wilson a lot. Voynov has twice his skill and potential. Any GM in the league would take Voynov over Wilson right now, and for good reason. The gulf between them will almost certainly grow wider in the coming years, despite my hopes for Wilson. Finally, Greene and O'Brien. We've all been pleasantly surprised by O'Brien. But mostly because our expectations were pretty damn low. Hopefully he keeps at it and can become as dependable as Greene has been for LA. Right now, that is not the case.

And as for the LA offense - they greatly underachieved last season. People had them slotted in as a contender but they somehow forgot to score goals. What we saw in the playoffs was much more in line with what that team was supposed to be all season. And if you can't see a difference between their forwards and ours, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe start watching baseball?

Sure, the Avs have got some good building blocks. With any luck and a year or two, they'll start realistically comparing to the Kings. But until those assets mature, it doesn't do anybody any good to overrate what they are.
I have to agree. Before the season started, LA was listed as a team ready to contend for the Cup. They ALMOST blew it by severely underachieving in the regular season. I remember an announcer saying they could all just thank Quick for his play, otherwise they would have been a huge bust. The Kings we saw in the playoffs were the team they are supposed to be.

The Avs, give them another 2 years, and we might be there in the same discussion. As it stands now, the Kings are a level above the Avs in terms of product on the ice. Luckily, the Avs have the "potential" to get there.

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07-06-2012, 11:47 AM
  #39
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NHL defenders:

EJ
Hejda
OB1
OB2
Wilson
Zannon
Hunwick

Unless I'm missing something that is seven defenders with Hunwick likely seeing lots of pressbox duty. Hopefully he gets more icetime and O Brien is benched. I don't think guys like O Brien are worth the boneheaded mistakes. But regardless, teams carry seven defenders on the roster quite often.

Gaunce is hopefully first callup. Barrie and Elliot should not have been in the NHL last year. Especially being scratches and barely getting minutes. For once the Avs should do things right and let them develop in the AHL.

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07-06-2012, 12:50 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymond Flurrie View Post
So are you saying that if a prospect impresses in the camp and players excluding Zanon are "pretty much ok", you throw Zanon to waivers immediately (before a single game is played) after signing him to a multi-year contract?
That's a little extreme but if a prospect does look just absolutely dynamite then yes we're going to have to make a move. If a prospect is only marginally better, then of course they're going to send the prospect down for another year.

I want to see Elliott, Barrie, and Gaunce work for spots on the roster though. I think management hedged their bets a little on Elliott last year and it didn't pan out. Injuries (as always) rattled this team last year and we're going to need some veteran defensemen to fill spots. I don't see how the Zanon acquisition makes someone expendable. As Dan O'Dowd's philosophy (yikes) goes - they acquired veteran players as "bridges" to their youth on the defensive corps.

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07-06-2012, 12:56 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Look at the Kings team this year. Is this defense really that better than ours?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Is Jon Quick that much better than Semyon Varlamov?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Are LA's top two lines better than ours?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Is their checking line better than ours?
Maybe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
What about the 4th line?
Yes

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07-06-2012, 01:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Yes.

Yes

Yes

Maybe

Yes
I take it your a Caps fan and didn't watch ANY Avs games.

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07-06-2012, 01:25 PM
  #43
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Theres no way LA's 3rd line is better than ours if we're talking Landy-Radar-Downie.

The rest though, I agree with Bonzai.

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07-06-2012, 01:29 PM
  #44
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I take it your a Caps fan and didn't watch ANY Avs games.
No he is an Avs fan and I assume he watched a lot of Avs games.

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07-06-2012, 01:33 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
That's a little extreme but if a prospect does look just absolutely dynamite then yes we're going to have to make a move. If a prospect is only marginally better, then of course they're going to send the prospect down for another year.

I want to see Elliott, Barrie, and Gaunce work for spots on the roster though. I think management hedged their bets a little on Elliott last year and it didn't pan out. Injuries (as always) rattled this team last year and we're going to need some veteran defensemen to fill spots. I don't see how the Zanon acquisition makes someone expendable. As Dan O'Dowd's philosophy (yikes) goes - they acquired veteran players as "bridges" to their youth on the defensive corps.
I'm totally ok with them competing with someone, but why not to compete against each other? I have enough faith on Avs d-men that the best of them could play a full NHL season.

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07-06-2012, 02:46 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
I take it your a Caps fan and didn't watch ANY Avs games.
Just a huge Peter Bondra fan....but Avs are my favorite team.

The only reason you could argue the Kings are comparable to the Avs is because the Kings have largely underachieved for what seems like the past 2-3 years. It finally came together for them this year.

I'd say the Avs have another 3 years or so before they are on the Kings level. Of course a big Weber signing could avance that quickly, but the Avs players are in their young twenties where the Kings guys are mostly in their mid-late 20's.

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07-06-2012, 03:05 PM
  #47
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I'd say the Avs have another 3 years or so before they are on the Kings level. Of course a big Weber signing could avance that quickly, but the Avs players are in their young twenties where the Kings guys are mostly in their mid-late 20's.
Agree, and I hope you're right. 2-3 years of improvement and multiple years of being competitive thereafter sounds really nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Fair enough. Good points. I guess I look at our roster and see loads of un-tapped potential.
This is a much better way to put it. Let's hope they hear Sherman's recent message and step it up to reach that potential. Seems like we're close.

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07-06-2012, 03:15 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Yes.

Yes

Yes

Maybe

Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
I take it your a Caps fan and didn't watch ANY Avs games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrickAHL View Post
No he is an Avs fan and I assume he watched a lot of Avs games.



Like brickAHL said , Bonzai is an Avs fan. Sooooo ....

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07-06-2012, 04:28 PM
  #49
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Agree, and I hope you're right. 2-3 years of improvement and multiple years of being competitive thereafter sounds really nice.



This is a much better way to put it. Let's hope they hear Sherman's recent message and step it up to reach that potential. Seems like we're close.
Then again, about how many NHL-teams you can say "they have a lot of potential"? 15? 20? 25?

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07-06-2012, 04:38 PM
  #50
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Avs youngest team in NHL

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