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Oilers sign Darcy Hordichuk (1year/$850k)

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Old
07-04-2012, 12:18 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
The problem with this argument is that Hordichuk isn't a good enough player to be on the ice with the other teams star players.
He would get burned.


As for the rest of this discussion its gone completely off the rails. Reading through some of the posts and my position (along with a few others) has been completely misrepresented.

Firstly we have posters comparing Hordichuk to Lucic which is ridiculous because Lucic can play the game at a high level....Hordi can't.

Then we have posters referencing the 1980's as justification as to why teams need a 4th line tough guy. Different era...its like suggesting goalies should be using a stand up style because Grant Fuhr was outstanding in the 80's.

Not being a fan of players like Hordichuk does not mean that you are anti-toughness. It just means that the value of a tough guy that is only good enough to play reduced minutes on the 4th line is minimal at best.

Functional toughness has value. A player that has the skillset (like Lucic) to play in the top 6 against the other teams best players has value.

Maintaining a roster spot for a player of marginal skills such as Hordichuk doesn't make a team better.
Of course, guys like Lucic are a better option!!

Jesus, who is actually comparing Hordichuk to Lucic as hockey players? You seem to be guilty of exactly what you are accusing people of in terms of misrepresenting people's opinion.

The bottom line is that Hordichuk will be interchanged with other players as a 13-14th forward throughout the season, and he role is not that of an stereotypical "goon", as seems to be the consensus with some.

Look on the first page of this thread, with Hordichuk knock Minnesota tough guy Brad Staubitz around and driving him absolutely nuts to the point of drawing a penalty. That is the role Hordichuk is meant to play, and when he does, he's pretty effective at it.

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07-04-2012, 12:35 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Of course, guys like Lucic are a better option!!

Jesus, who is actually comparing Hordichuk to Lucic as hockey players? You seem to be guilty of exactly what you are accusing people of in terms of misrepresenting people's opinion.

The bottom line is that Hordichuk will be interchanged with other players as a 13-14th forward throughout the season, and he role is not that of an stereotypical "goon", as seems to be the consensus with some.

Look on the first page of this thread, with Hordichuk knock Minnesota tough guy Brad Staubitz around and driving him absolutely nuts to the point of drawing a penalty. That is the role Hordichuk is meant to play, and when he does, he's pretty effective at it.
The one example you cite is the only one I can think of. Across the whole season. Thats one of the problems with having a pest in the lineup thats not good enough to play minutes. Theres little opportunity for him to antagonize. We had three guys, Hordi, Sutton, and Eager, who were supposed to be antagonizers that rarely were.

I would say that Hordi's role on this club has been much closer to goon then what you describe.


Last edited by Replacement: 07-04-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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07-04-2012, 12:53 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
The problem with this argument is that Hordichuk isn't a good enough player to be on the ice with the other teams star players.
He would get burned.


As for the rest of this discussion its gone completely off the rails. Reading through some of the posts and my position (along with a few others) has been completely misrepresented.

Firstly we have posters comparing Hordichuk to Lucic which is ridiculous because Lucic can play the game at a high level....Hordi can't.

Then we have posters referencing the 1980's as justification as to why teams need a 4th line tough guy. Different era...its like suggesting goalies should be using a stand up style because Grant Fuhr was outstanding in the 80's.

Not being a fan of players like Hordichuk does not mean that you are anti-toughness. It just means that the value of a tough guy that is only good enough to play reduced minutes on the 4th line is minimal at best.

Functional toughness has value. A player that has the skillset (like Lucic) to play in the top 6 against the other teams best players has value.

Maintaining a roster spot for a player of marginal skills such as Hordichuk doesn't make a team better.
Pretending that intimidation is a thing of the past in the NHL is ridiculous. I would agree that having an enforcer that plays two shifts a game is ridiculous and no where did I say he was going to take a regular shift with Hall etc?

What I said was he is a good enough player that he can play more than a couple of shifts a game.

I disagree there is no place for a player like Hordichuk, I would agree there is no place for a player like McIntyre.

Shift disturbers still have a place in the game. One dimensional tough guys no. I consider Hordichuk more of a disturber than a tough guy. I think that may be why there is a big difference on opinion in this thread. First you have to agree on what Hordichuk is and I don't even think we agree on that point.

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07-04-2012, 01:22 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The one example you cite is the only one I can think of. Thats one of the problems with having a pest in the lineup thats not good enough to play minutes. Theres little opportunity for him to antagonize.

I would say that Hordi's role on this club has been much closer to goon then what you describe.
And I would say that he is not, so we both have valid opinions on the matter.

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07-04-2012, 01:27 PM
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And I would say that he is not, so we both have valid opinions on the matter.
We both agree that a pest that is hitting, ruffling feathers, and upsetting the opposition is a good thing. Of what we had Hordi was the closest to that style but we've seen some of the best here so maybe I'm underscoring him.

To me an effective pest is a good enough hockey player to log significant minutes and play some difficult minutes. Hordi isn't that.

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07-04-2012, 01:38 PM
  #181
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Good article on Hordi at ON.

http://oilersnation.com/2012/7/4/hor...-the-same-page

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07-04-2012, 01:55 PM
  #182
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Very candid interview with Darcy. Like that sort of stuff.

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07-04-2012, 01:58 PM
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Its a confusing read. Revealing in a sense but Hordi is all over the map and not really a communicator. Hard to make sense of some of it.

For instance Hordi in several comments is throwing Renney under the bus then trying to smooth it over, then several comments where he acknowledges where he himself didn't have the right attitude.

The stuff on Eager though is just mysterious. Eager did nothing all season.

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DH: Benny knows exactly what his role is. He knows what he has to do and I think that people get frustrated with him, but I think when Bennie played well he felt that maybe he was rewarded. So maybe when he wasn’t rewarded he didn’t want to fight for somebody. And that’s what I think that it came down to. So it’s one of those things were sometimes you feel you deserve a little more than you’ve been getting so you’ll go to bat for somebody. But I think that he thought he was getting the short end of the stick and he just gave up on that role, and maybe on Tom a little bit.

I think that sometimes you’ve got to do it and then maybe you get rewarded but obviously sometimes there could be a power struggle. But Bennie and I feed off of each other. When I’m in the lineup and when Bennie’s in the lineup you get that much tougher. Now it’s not just picking on one guy, you’ve got a couple of guys you have to go through. And it becomes more of an intimidation factor where Bennie can go after them and then if someone comes after Bennie, then I can go after them.
Eager watching somebodies back? lol. This is the same guy that would skate past the **** and allow somebody like Sam Gagner try to fight. The same guy that did nothing when RNH was hurt and skated right by.

The bolded is essentially an indictment. Hordi being stupid enough to openly acknowledge something that he sensed from Eager that could easily be used against Eager.

Personally after reading that I would fire Eagers ass. Pretty much what many people thought. Eager was asshurt most of the year and refusing to do what was asked of him. Gave up. Yep, sounds about right.

Doesn't sound like an attitude that we should want to have in the dressingroom.


Last edited by Replacement: 07-04-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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07-05-2012, 12:27 AM
  #184
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@hrmcewan: "I like the Hordichuk signing because Dan Tencer said he was nice to RNH this one time." - an #Oilers fan.

McEwan, you devil you! lol

But yeah, dude can't play.

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07-06-2012, 04:59 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Of course, guys like Lucic are a better option!!

Jesus, who is actually comparing Hordichuk to Lucic as hockey players? You seem to be guilty of exactly what you are accusing people of in terms of misrepresenting people's opinion.
Feel free to peruse the thread and read some of the nonsense being posted.
Here is an example...

Quote:
I believe the toughness of the team has an impact on how the skill players play the game.

If RNH and Eberle look down the bench and see they are the toughest on the team it will have an impact on how they play.

Ideally you have guys like Lucic for a tough guy and most of your players are large and can take care of themselves, and their smaller super-stars when needed.

The Oilers do not have near enough of it (toughness). I believe that players like Hordichuk and Eager, that the Oilers do have, being stapled to the bench when the situation calls for them to be on the ice has an impact on the play of the skilled players, and their health.

Normally a pretty good poster but suggesting that playing Hordichuk and Eager in a 4th line role will help our skill players like Lucic does in Boston is ridiculous.


Quote:
The bottom line is that Hordichuk will be interchanged with other players as a 13-14th forward throughout the season, and he role is not that of an stereotypical "goon", as seems to be the consensus with some.

Look on the first page of this thread, with Hordichuk knock Minnesota tough guy Brad Staubitz around and driving him absolutely nuts to the point of drawing a penalty. That is the role Hordichuk is meant to play, and when he does, he's pretty effective at it.
So you cite a grand total of 1 isolated incident and use that as the measure of Hordichuks value?

Good grief.

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07-06-2012, 05:03 PM
  #186
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Pretending that intimidation is a thing of the past in the NHL is ridiculous. I would agree that having an enforcer that plays two shifts a game is ridiculous and no where did I say he was going to take a regular shift with Hall etc?

What I said was he is a good enough player that he can play more than a couple of shifts a game.

I disagree there is no place for a player like Hordichuk, I would agree there is no place for a player like McIntyre.

Shift disturbers still have a place in the game. One dimensional tough guys no. I consider Hordichuk more of a disturber than a tough guy. I think that may be why there is a big difference on opinion in this thread. First you have to agree on what Hordichuk is and I don't even think we agree on that point.
Show me where I suggested that intimidation is no longer a part of the game?

My point is that there is no place for terrible hockey players who cant play the game.

MacIntyre had the distinction of being one of the worst hockey players I have ever had the displeasure of watching. So being more useful than MacIntyre is like saying a knife works better than a fork for soup.

This team needs a disturber (grit player...pick your adjective) that can actually play the game. A top 6 player thats actually out on the ice when the other teams tops 6 players are. Not a marginal 4th liner who (if Kruger is smart...and I think he is) would never see the ice when anything but the other teams 4th line is playing.

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07-06-2012, 05:17 PM
  #187
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So you cite a grand total of 1 isolated incident and use that as the measure of Hordichuks value?

Good grief.
It is simply an example of the role Hordichuk can and should play, and I was pretty clear in my post as to that being the intent of the example.

Should have known better that it would be disregarded immediately.

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07-06-2012, 05:23 PM
  #188
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It is simply an example of the role Hordichuk can and should play, and I was pretty clear in my post as to that being the intent of the example.

Should have known better that it would be disregarded immediately.
So then build your argument. By all means...explain how Hordichuk adds value to the team outside of that 1 incident because I didn't see anything in your post that underscored your contention.

Hordichuk has never been a good enough player to warrant increased ice time in more challenging situations. History has shown that.
He never was much of a hockey player to begin with and now that he is over 30 he is worse than ever, but yet somehow giving him more minutes is going to make an impact and help the team.

Not buying it...it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

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07-06-2012, 05:44 PM
  #189
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So then build your argument. By all means...explain how Hordichuk adds value to the team outside of that 1 incident because I didn't see anything in your post that underscored your contention.

Hordichuk has never been a good enough player to warrant increased ice time in more challenging situations. History has shown that.
He never was much of a hockey player to begin with and now that he is over 30 he is worse than ever, but yet somehow giving him more minutes is going to make an impact and help the team.

Not buying it...it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
Hordichuk by his own accounts was ineffectual in the earlier posted article. While saying his partner in crime flat out gave up.

At least Hordichuk laid out some hits but as far as being an antagonist I already called out that only one example has been cited across a whole season. Whoopee ****. We have Hordichuk, Eager, Sutton, Peckham, for mayhem and we're still team fairy. Maybe if we get a handful more talentless goons...

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07-06-2012, 05:48 PM
  #190
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Hordichuk by his own accounts was ineffectual in the earlier posted article. While saying his partner in crime flat out gave up.

At least Hordichuk laid out some hits but as far as being an antagonist I already called out that only one example has been cited across a whole season. Whoopee ****. We have Hordichuk, Eager, Sutton, Peckham, for mayhem and we're still team fairy. Maybe if we get a handful more talentless goons...
No kidding.
There seems to be a disconnect in terms of a player with grit that can actually play the game and a player with grit that can't.

One helps your team...the other one doesn't.

Maybe you and I (and a few others) have it backwards.

Seriously though the hits are great but wouldn't be nice to watch an Oilers team that can actually hit the other teams best players for a change?

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07-06-2012, 05:58 PM
  #191
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So then build your argument. By all means...explain how Hordichuk adds value to the team outside of that 1 incident because I didn't see anything in your post that underscored your contention.

Hordichuk has never been a good enough player to warrant increased ice time in more challenging situations. History has shown that.
He never was much of a hockey player to begin with and now that he is over 30 he is worse than ever, but yet somehow giving him more minutes is going to make an impact and help the team.

Not buying it...it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
He's getting more minutes??

Maybe you think that he has been signed to play 9 minutes a night and all 82 games.

He's a 13-14th winger that can skate a bit, hit a bunch and get under the skin of the opposition every once and a while. He's nothing more than that, nor will he ever be more than that.

That's why he's signed to 850K for one year. His role is clearly defined and yet you seem to think that anyone who doesn't hate this deal doesn't know what they're talking about...again.

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07-06-2012, 06:01 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
He's getting more minutes??

Maybe you think that he has been signed to play 9 minutes a night and all 82 games.

He's a 13-14th winger that can skate a bit, hit a bunch and get under the skin of the opposition every once and a while. He's nothing more than that, nor will he ever be more than that.

That's why he's signed to 850K for one year. His role is clearly defined and yet you seem to think that anyone who doesn't hate this deal doesn't know what they're talking about...again.


Its a bad signing and a waste of a roster spot because Hordichuk is a bad hockey player. He doesn't help the team and this notion that Renney held the team back by not playing Hordichuk more is silly.

If this position is way off base then it should be quite easy to counter.

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07-06-2012, 06:04 PM
  #193
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Its a bad signing and a waste of a roster spot because Hordichuk is a bad hockey player. He doesn't help the team and this notion that Renney held the team back by not playing Hordichuk more is silly.
Fine. Darcy Hordichuk's signing comes at the expense of signing a top 6 winger/centre that can play the game at a high level.

Stupid Tambo.

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07-06-2012, 06:11 PM
  #194
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Fine. Darcy Hordichuk's signing comes at the expense of signing a top 6 winger/centre that can play the game at a high level.

Stupid Tambo.
Poor response. The thing is theres lots of guys that can hit and fight. But with that alone they're not much value and basically just taking up a roster spot. The guys with real value in this regard can also play the game.

Theres immense value in a player that can log a lot of minutes, get in faces, and play against most lines and good players.

Hordi is such an also ran. The kind of player you get when you recruit similar scrubs like Eager, Barker, and Sutton to a bad team and expect it to get better..

I shouldn't be too happy, nor should you, that the Oilers chronically set the bar this low in trying to round out a roster. They got capspace, maybe work a little harder getting some quality fill that can actually make some kind of contribution.

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07-06-2012, 06:22 PM
  #195
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Poor response. The thing is theres lots of guys that can hit and fight. But with that alone they're not much value and basically just taking up a roster spot. The guys with real value in this regard can also play the game.

Theres immense value in a player that can log a lot of minutes, get in faces, and play against most lines and good players.

Hordi is such an also ran. The kind of player you get when you recruit similar scrubs like Eager, Barker, and Sutton to a bad team and expect it to get better..

I shouldn't be too happy, nor should you, that the Oilers chronically set the bar this low in trying to round out a roster. They got capspace, maybe work a little harder getting some quality fill that can actually make some kind of contribution.
Any response made in this thread trying to show any example of Hordichuk being effective at any time has automatically been dismissed. What else is there?

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07-06-2012, 06:37 PM
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Any response made in this thread trying to show any example of Hordichuk being effective at any time has automatically been dismissed. What else is there?
One of the problems is it hasn't happened a lot or as Guymez stated you'd be stating it.

Effective would be getting under the skin of opposition on a more consistent basis. Really I have to say this Hordichuk shows no imagination in this regard. Its not just about grimacing and leering and looking like a snarling pitbull at the end of a leash.

He's not getting in guys heads much. I'm sure most opposition take a look at him frothing in the mouth and laugh it off. But at least Hordi is doing OK in penalties taken/penalties drawn.

Eager on the other hand is a complete and selfish joke. The guy Hordi supported has taken over 3X as many penalty minutes as he's drawn. Essentially we're paying Eager to self destruct and on past history were doing that with full knowledge of that likelihood.

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07-06-2012, 08:15 PM
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All of this talk that he can not play. He can play 4th line type minutes. We complained and rightly so that Smack could not play. But Hordichuk can actually skate well, get in to make hits, hits hard, can handle the puck a little bit. I think people disparage his other skills just to prove their point that they do not want that type of player on the team at all.

Hordichuk can be a pest type guy if he is given a little bit of rope and some ice time and I do not mean gobs of ice time. Give the guy 6-10 minutes a game and he will do his job and do it well IMO. I do not feel he was given much chance to do that last season. It seemed like every time things got rough he was stapled to the bench. Such as a couple games against Colorado, Renney talked big about responding to the kids being run, which was contradicted completely by the ice time he gave out. Hordichuk played I think 2-3 minutes in one of those Avs games and he did not play at all after stuff got chippy and some runs were taken.

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07-07-2012, 01:42 AM
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All of this talk that he can not play. He can play 4th line type minutes. We complained and rightly so that Smack could not play. But Hordichuk can actually skate well, get in to make hits, hits hard, can handle the puck a little bit. I think people disparage his other skills just to prove their point that they do not want that type of player on the team at all.

Hordichuk can be a pest type guy if he is given a little bit of rope and some ice time and I do not mean gobs of ice time. Give the guy 6-10 minutes a game and he will do his job and do it well IMO. I do not feel he was given much chance to do that last season. It seemed like every time things got rough he was stapled to the bench. Such as a couple games against Colorado, Renney talked big about responding to the kids being run, which was contradicted completely by the ice time he gave out. Hordichuk played I think 2-3 minutes in one of those Avs games and he did not play at all after stuff got chippy and some runs were taken.
He was one hell of a lot better than Eager. but that ain't saying much. Could you imagine this club with a Clutterbuck or Glencross who we gave away or a guy like Rene Bourque who was somehow expendable in Calgary. Those are examples of players who are physical and hit a lot and can finish. It makes so much more of a contribution to your club when your energy pest guys can chip in goals. Its absolutely demoralizing to the opposition to have the most hated player on the ice score a goal. I'll add Torres in with this value.

Hordi never scores, not his game, I realize, but its a valuable commodity to be entirely missing. Hell even Semenko scored goals, even Laraque scored the odd goal, not that I want to go back to him but.

The way to piss off an opponent the most is for the pest to be in the offense. Those kind of goals and pts win hockey games imo.

I grew up on 4th line contributions being gold to teams. I'll never forget that.

I will say if Eager can ever get his head screwed on tight he could be a regular 10 goal scorer in this league. Hopefully it happens.

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07-07-2012, 02:34 AM
  #199
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Effective would be getting under the skin of opposition on a more consistent basis. Really I have to say this Hordichuk shows no imagination in this regard. Its not just about grimacing and leering and looking like a snarling pitbull at the end of a leash.

He's not getting in guys heads much. I'm sure most opposition take a look at him frothing in the mouth and laugh it off. But at least Hordi is doing OK in penalties taken/penalties drawn.
I'm neutral on the Hordichuck signing. He can't play hockey, but he may come in useful a dozen times over the course of the season.

I will disagree with the bolded part. Hordichuck can be kind of scary when he gets worked up. I mean he's not a real heavyweight obviously but he's always been the kind of guy that looks like he could cross the line. Dress him against the Canucks, Flames, Stars and Ducks. I wouldn't mind seeing Hordi throw down with Souray once this year.

As for the more intelligent kind of disturber, I think Smyth should be nominated to take some of that on. He's big enough and he can take care of himself. If he's going to be a net presence some of that is required anyway ... remember when he melted Gigučre down?



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Eager on the other hand is a complete and selfish joke. The guy Hordi supported has taken over 3X as many penalty minutes as he's drawn. Essentially we're paying Eager to self destruct and on past history were doing that with full knowledge of that likelihood.
Eager was disappointing no doubt.
Can't imagine he's happy with the quotes Hordi gave in that article though.

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07-07-2012, 03:33 AM
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Oilerdiehard
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He was one hell of a lot better than Eager. but that ain't saying much. Could you imagine this club with a Clutterbuck or Glencross who we gave away or a guy like Rene Bourque who was somehow expendable in Calgary. Those are examples of players who are physical and hit a lot and can finish. It makes so much more of a contribution to your club when your energy pest guys can chip in goals. Its absolutely demoralizing to the opposition to have the most hated player on the ice score a goal. I'll add Torres in with this value.

Hordi never scores, not his game, I realize, but its a valuable commodity to be entirely missing. Hell even Semenko scored goals, even Laraque scored the odd goal, not that I want to go back to him but.

The way to piss off an opponent the most is for the pest to be in the offense. Those kind of goals and pts win hockey games imo.

I grew up on 4th line contributions being gold to teams. I'll never forget that.

I will say if Eager can ever get his head screwed on tight he could be a regular 10 goal scorer in this league. Hopefully it happens.
Well 4th liners generally do not score a heck of a lot and you do not expect or count on much offense from that line during their more limited ice time.

You mention George Laraque outside of what one or two seasons when scoring was probably higher, just prior to dead puck era. Laraque generally scored anywhere from 2 to 6 goals per season.

Hordichuk has had 3, 4 and 7 goal seasons, so that would seem to put him in the Laraque range.

Well of course a hard nosed guy that scores 20 or 25 goals would be great. But we do not have those guys and not many of them seem to be floating around to pick up either. For me that is more valid to bring into the conversation if Glencross, Bourque or Clutterbuck were putting up goals like you say while playing a 4th line, limited minutes energy role. But they are not in that role and should not be.

Are you saying though if we had one of those guys that suddenly there would be no need for traditional 4th liners? Do the teams of the players you mentioned not have the usual 4th line physical / energy guys? Pretty sure those teams feel the need to have both, so I do not really see an either or here. Hordichuk would not be stealing a big, physical 20+ goal scoring wingers spot in the top 6 and that big, scoring winger is not stealing Hordichuk's spot on the 4th line either.

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