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Quincey Files for Arbitration

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Old
07-06-2012, 10:16 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
I think Quincey is going to get 4-4.5M. (closer to 4.5). I dunno if hes worth that but that is what he is going to get imo.

The question is do you want him to sign for that much for 1 year or for 5 years. Pros and cons to both strategies.
that's what I'm expecting, too. And I think he'll get signed for it because we can afford it and, considering what other deals have been thrown around, it's probably pretty fair - especially over a shorter term.

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07-06-2012, 10:17 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Rzombo4 prez View Post
I don't understand why exactly everyone is freaking out over what Q could potentially be awarded. We are currently sitting on 18 MM of cap space. We literally cannot spend the cap space that we have. That good looking class of 2013 free agents will largely get signed between now and next July. Furthermore, everyone knows that Kenny doesn't have the stones to make a trade for a meaningful blueliner.

I simply don't see the logic in cutting bait with him. The right move is to get him signed for a couple of years if possible. That way we will have an asset to show for the pick we gave up. We can always later move that asset for another, better player if need be.
Yeah, I agree--but why would Quincey sign a 2-year contract (for example)? If I were him, I'd only sign either a 1-year or a 4-year/$4M+.

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07-06-2012, 10:32 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Hckytwn View Post
I think your comparisons are fair, but why do think this won't go to arbitration? What do you think he'll agree to? (Remember, he didn't even counter offer Holland's initial proposal.)
I don't think Wings have anything to win by going to arbitration, at best he'll get a similar hit to last season but becomes an UFA. I don't think Quincey has anything to win either, because I think teams will be hesitant to sign a injury prone player whose numbers are declining. Wings allegedly have an offer on the table at around $3-3.5M with terms. If arbitration goes up as far as $4-4.5M and Wings walk, he's gonna have a hard time finding $3.2-3.5M on a 3 year term on the market in August. I'd say that's impossible. Do I think we walk? No, but for Quincey that's a risk. For a player who struggles with health, taking a one year deal when there's a potential three of four year deal at decent money on the table is gambling.

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07-06-2012, 10:54 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
I don't think Wings have anything to win by going to arbitration, at best he'll get a similar hit to last season but becomes an UFA. I don't think Quincey has anything to win either, because I think teams will be hesitant to sign a injury prone player whose numbers are declining. Wings allegedly have an offer on the table at around $3-3.5M with terms. If arbitration goes up as far as $4-4.5M and Wings walk, he's gonna have a hard time finding $3.2-3.5M on a 3 year term on the market in August. I'd say that's impossible. Do I think we walk? No, but for Quincey that's a risk. For a player who struggles with health, taking a one year deal when there's a potential three of four year deal at decent money on the table is gambling.
A one-year deal is perfect for Quincey.
The Wings look like they'll field a TERRIBLE defense this year. That means Q will move from #6 defenseman perhaps all the way to #2 defense, and get PP time (more or less than Kronwall, will be one question).

So Quincey is going to have a chance to put up HUGE numbers in Detroit this year.

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07-06-2012, 11:02 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
A one-year deal is perfect for Quincey.
The Wings look like they'll field a TERRIBLE defense this year. That means Q will move from #6 defenseman perhaps all the way to #2 defense, and get PP time (more or less than Kronwall, will be one question).

So Quincey is going to have a chance to put up HUGE numbers in Detroit this year.
He maybe thinks himself that he has that chance. But I think the coaching staff has some other plans, to make him more Stuart-like defensive D, with some secondary PP help.

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07-06-2012, 11:10 AM
  #106
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He maybe thinks himself that he has that chance. But I think the coaching staff has some other plans, to make him more Stuart-like defensive D, with some secondary PP help.
That's how I see it aswell. Kronwall, White and Sammy are locks to play PP. Quincey is the 4th option IMO, but Smith will get a chance too.

If Quincey surpasses all those guys but Kronwall, and puts up 40-45 points, then good for him. But also good for us. If he shows that kind of upside, I want to keep him anyway.

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07-06-2012, 01:10 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
How does an arbitrator go beyond the stats?
He listens to cases from both sides. And included in their arguments is a long list of items, beyond just stats. You don't think players have left their arb hearings crying because the team pointed out their plus/minus, do you?


Quote:
It will be anything but easy to show he's worth less (and in fact, he's not worse than Ericsson whose sole saving grace is his PK work).
That's not a fact, that's your opinion Quincey was inferior to Ericsson in his time here. He provided little offense and was a blackhole defensively. The biggest factor in showing he's worth more than Ericsson (not that he will be directly compared) may be Quincey's camp's ability to show he is actually a PP asset.


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The Wings and even some in the free market may not want to pay him more but that's not how arbitration works.
Looking at only stats is also not how it works.


Last edited by jaster: 07-06-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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07-06-2012, 01:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
He listens to cases from both sides. And included in their arguments is a long list of items, beyond just stats. You don't think players have left their arb hearings crying because the team pointed out their plus/minus, do you?
That doesn't mean an arbitrator will consider "he's mean and the coaches don't like him" when considering cost.

It also burns bridges, so yes, you can get nasty, but you'd better be prepared to lose that player forever beyond the award at your option.

Quote:
That's not a fact, that's your opinion Quincey was inferior to Ericsson in his time here. He provided little offense and was a blackhole defensively. The biggest factor in showing he's worth more than Ericsson (not that he will be directly compared) may be Quincey's camp's ability to show he is actually a PP asset.
Which you just refuted by posting ---> your <--- opinion. Funny how that becomes fact when you post it, but opinion when someone else makes a similar assertion.

And Ericsson had 3 yrs of the worst +/- on the team (or was that Lilja's streak??), but he 'deserves' his $3.25 MM and an NTC.

Gotcha.

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07-06-2012, 02:15 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
That doesn't mean an arbitrator will consider "he's mean and the coaches don't like him" when considering cost.

It also burns bridges, so yes, you can get nasty, but you'd better be prepared to lose that player forever beyond the award at your option.
It doesn't need to go to that extreme, and I don't think the Wings will try to make Quincey cry. I'm just saying they will look at more than just stats.


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Which you just refuted by posting ---> your <--- opinion. Funny how that becomes fact when you post it, but opinion when someone else makes a similar assertion.
C'mon Fugu. You explicitly stated that your position was a fact, you used the word "fact." I did not. Mine was clearly an opinion, as is everything on this forum that is typed without a cited source or reference.

I watched all 18 games Quincey played here. He provided very little offense and was abused defensively. Ericsson also provided very little offense, but was good defensively last year. Ergo, Ericsson was better as a Wing last year than Quincey. My opinion. Now will Quincey be better next year after getting more comfortable with the Wings system, as many are insisting? I don't know, but I sure hope so.

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07-06-2012, 02:23 PM
  #110
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I did not see the "E was good defensively" stuff until he got paired with superior defensemen, like Lidstrom and Kronwall.

So, no, I'm not buying.

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07-06-2012, 02:39 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I did not see the "E was good defensively" stuff until he got paired with superior defensemen, like Lidstrom and Kronwall.

So, no, I'm not buying.
Do you think Quincey, in his time in Detroit, was better, worse, or as good as Ericsson defensively?

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07-06-2012, 02:48 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Do you think Quincey, in his time in Detroit, was better, worse, or as good as Ericsson defensively?

Ask me in three years--- about the amount of roster time Ericsson got to get to this point.

Your question shouldn't even be considered when the guy had two months as a Wing, and entering when they're were at their lowest point of the season, mainly due to injuries.

However, as this next season gets going, I think I'll have a better handle of where he fits in and what he can do. I honestly don't think you can make an assessment you can stand behind given his total time on the team and circumstances when he started.

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07-06-2012, 03:04 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Ask me in three years--- about the amount of roster time Ericsson got to get to this point.

Your question shouldn't even be considered when the guy had two months as a Wing, and entering when they're were at their lowest point of the season, mainly due to injuries.

However, as this next season gets going, I think I'll have a better handle of where he fits in and what he can do. I honestly don't think you can make an assessment you can stand behind given his total time on the team and circumstances when he started.
Good job ducking away from that question! But your avoidance provides me with your answer

I agree though, we'll have a more accurate viewing next season, when everybody starts fresh and on even ground.

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07-06-2012, 03:07 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I did not see the "E was good defensively" stuff until he got paired with superior defensemen, like Lidstrom and Kronwall.

So, no, I'm not buying.
Considering your eyesight regarding Lilly's defensive abilities I have no doubt you didn't see E's either.

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07-06-2012, 03:08 PM
  #115
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Considering your eyesight regarding Lilly's defensive abilities I have no doubt you didn't see E's either.

Nothing wrong my eyesight, especially in that regard. Lilja sucked then and he still sucks. His role never rose above 6/7 on any team after he left his coddled Swedish status here.

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07-06-2012, 03:11 PM
  #116
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Good job ducking away from that question! But your avoidance provides me with your answer

I agree though, we'll have a more accurate viewing next season, when everybody starts fresh and on even ground.

I'm not trying to be evasive. He struggled, looking solid at times especially in the playoffs when saved teammates' bacons a few times. He had some gaffes too. However, given that the team as a group really sucked too--- what does that really say about any of them? That none of them are the next coming of Prime Lidstrom? Sure, I can agree with that. Heck, Kronwall had me banging my head against the wall defensively during the entire season. Are we going to dump him as well?

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07-06-2012, 04:55 PM
  #117
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Can't we agree that Q and E are equally awful and move on?

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07-06-2012, 04:58 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Nothing wrong my eyesight, especially in that regard. Lilja sucked then and he still sucks. His role never rose above 6/7 on any team after he left his coddled Swedish status here.
Its too bad you'll never appreciate bottom pairing defensemen and pk specialists. they're very important for good teams.

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07-06-2012, 05:06 PM
  #119
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Can't we agree that Q and E are equally awful and move on?
Why would we ever agree to such a thing around here

In all honesty both these guys are better than how Detroit fans view them.

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07-06-2012, 05:10 PM
  #120
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Its too bad you'll never appreciate bottom pairing defensemen and pk specialists. they're very important for good teams.
I will admit I hated Lilja while he was here, but our pk simply hasn't been as good without him. I am sure Chicago fans would point out the same thing about Brent Sopel. Pittsburgh hasn't been the same without Gill and Scudari (more of a true top four guy, but really their biggest mistake in letting him go). You might not always like those stay at home guys and sure they fight the puck and are sometimes pilons. But it seems almost every cup winning team lately has one. E is getting very good at this role which is encouraging for us.

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07-06-2012, 07:52 PM
  #121
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Why would we ever agree to such a thing around here
This board would explode.

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07-06-2012, 08:15 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
That doesn't mean an arbitrator will consider "he's mean and the coaches don't like him" when considering cost.

It also burns bridges, so yes, you can get nasty, but you'd better be prepared to lose that player forever beyond the award at your option.



Which you just refuted by posting ---> your <--- opinion. Funny how that becomes fact when you post it, but opinion when someone else makes a similar assertion.

And Ericsson had 3 yrs of the worst +/- on the team (or was that Lilja's streak??), but he 'deserves' his $3.25 MM and an NTC.

Gotcha.
Over the last 2 seasons (the season before and the season after his extension), Ericsson has the best combined +- of Red Wings defenseman at +24.

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07-06-2012, 11:59 PM
  #123
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I will admit I hated Lilja while he was here, but our pk simply hasn't been as good without him. I am sure Chicago fans would point out the same thing about Brent Sopel. Pittsburgh hasn't been the same without Gill and Scudari (more of a true top four guy, but really their biggest mistake in letting him go). You might not always like those stay at home guys and sure they fight the puck and are sometimes pilons. But it seems almost every cup winning team lately has one. E is getting very good at this role which is encouraging for us.
E is improving. 3 yrs of development in the NHL. Good for the Wings.

Lilja played on the PK with mainly Cheli and Lidstrom, but our PK got worse when he left, right?

How about--- the PK was once upon a time manned by elite two way forwards like Dats, Z and even Hossa at times. Or that having a far superior team at that time translated to better results for everyone? Like being the leading scoring team in the league?

The PK did not recede because Lilja left.

I like how everyone ignores the overarching point that he's been basically a 6/7 defenseman since he left the Wings, and has gotten paid far less for it than what Holland was willing to overpay? Certainly some of that may be due to his poor head, but that was another reason for Holland to move on, which he wasn't willing to do and let Lilly make that decision for him.



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Over the last 2 seasons (the season before and the season after his extension), Ericsson has the best combined +- of Red Wings defenseman at +24.
Yeah, why not go back over his entire time here? You're cherry picking. Furthermore, the last two seasons, his IT has DECREASED and he was playing against lesser competition = being protected.

You know, that's probably fine because the Wings were trying to develop him, to build his confidence and to get him to take small steps and stick to keeping it simple. That's fine. However--- let's not pretend that none of that was necessary and that he was horrific before they came up with the plan to help him develop.

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07-07-2012, 01:37 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post

Yeah, why not go back over his entire time here? You're cherry picking. Furthermore, the last two seasons, his IT has DECREASED and he was playing against lesser competition = being protected.

You know, that's probably fine because the Wings were trying to develop him, to build his confidence and to get him to take small steps and stick to keeping it simple. That's fine. However--- let's not pretend that none of that was necessary and that he was horrific before they came up with the plan to help him develop.
I was simply replying to what you wrote. Ericsson did not have the worst +- for 3 straight years- not even close.

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07-07-2012, 01:39 AM
  #125
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I was simply replying to what you wrote. Ericsson did not have the worst +- for 3 straight years- not even close.

So post three years of data, not two.

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