HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Summer Roster Moves VI: Return of the Peg-i

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-06-2012, 05:58 PM
  #76
static80
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,633
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
So it's evident this team needs a 2/3 veteran C to take some pressure off Hodgson and Ennis. They've been mentioned in other threads, but it's time to put a stake in the sand. Who do you want, what's realistic, and who do you think Regier is after? (I really thought Regier thought he was signing Jokinen when he dealt Roy...)

Two that stand out to me and make sense:

Filpulla (for a deal around Sekera)
Brodziak (for a deal around Leopold)

Both are plausible candidates and good in different ways. Both would fill a huge hole and allow Regier to go after scoring on the wing. Neither would stand in the way if Grigorenko comes out the gate like Malkin (as unlikely as that may be.)

Regier can't go into the season sporting Ennis, Cody, and a plethora of fourth-line depth centers. He also can't count on Ott or Leino to pick up the slack (which they may be asked to do in lieu of injuries anyway). So what's his master plan? And I said this before, but I really think Hecht becomes his worst case scenario...
Buffalo needs a line 4 center, they have their 3 centers already.

static80 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 05:59 PM
  #77
Rhett4
KALETA REBORN
 
Rhett4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Cassidy Must Go
Country: United States
Posts: 11,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zman5778 View Post
Pominille and Flip took almost the same number of draws last season. Flip isn't a center.

Brodziak kinda sucks at taking draws.....and we already have two very unproved options there.....
Well provide some 2/3 options you think could be had.

Rhett4 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:09 PM
  #78
tsujimoto74
Registered User
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
It amazes me that Sabres fans haven't come down to earth regarding the value of their loser core... even after Roy was traded.

I don't think Vanek's "objective" 60 points, is worth more then Dubinsky and Boyles combined 60 points.... do you want to look at 2011 when Vanek had 70 pts... and dubi+boyle had 90?

And after objective points... Dubinsky and Boyle are objectively better in every other way
Nice straw man you built there. By that logic, we can get Malkin for ~Pominville and Leino. Quick! Somebody call Darcy and tell him!

tsujimoto74 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:12 PM
  #79
dkollidas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,064
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Vanek will be gone in 2 years

Id rather watch a harder working, more competitive team, while the new core develops (with the added bonus that the hard work rubs off on the new core as it works its way up)

I really don't think Vanek will be gone in two years. I realize his contract will be up, but I have a feeling Darcy will find a fair number for him at which he'll stay with the club. I think Lindy is hard on him because he feels he can be a "great" player, but so far has only been a "very good" player. I also think the quotes that came out this off-season, from guys like Roy and Boyes, may get Lindy to change his tune and ease up on the guys, if even just a little bit. I also think he's just not the kind of guy that wants a forward playing 22-24 minutes per night because of the drag it will put on their skating with his insistence on forwards playing a solid 2-way game.

dkollidas is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:17 PM
  #80
Rob Paxon
⚔Z E M G U S⚔
 
Rob Paxon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: corfu, ny
Country: United States
Posts: 18,789
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Rob Paxon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
It amazes me that Sabres fans haven't come down to earth regarding the value of their loser core... even after Roy was traded.

I don't think Vanek's "objective" 60 points, is worth more then Dubinsky and Boyles combined 60 points.... do you want to look at 2011 when Vanek had 70 pts... and dubi+boyle had 90?

And after objective points... Dubinsky and Boyle are objectively better in every other way
I didn't realize a tallying of points is how you judge value. Maybe we should trade Vanek for three 4th liners if that's the case.

It's much easier to find players for Dubinsky and Boyle's roles than it is for Vanek's. In either case you're likely to get players perhaps not quite as good at those roles, which is very clearly less important in filling the roles of Dubinsky and Boyle.

Bobby Ryan hasn't shown to be any more of a winner than Thomas Vanek if you want to go that route. He joined a Stanley Cup winning team and they haven't done squat since, so maybe he's the problem. I haven't seen Dubinsky hoist a cup, nor Boyle.

I'd love to get Boyle but he's hardly a centerpiece to a Thomas Vanek trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
it wasn't a straw man... the poster i quoted referred to objective value.
And you didn't demonstrate value, just the total points of two players getting presumably twice the total ice time of Thomas Vanek.

Rob Paxon is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:17 PM
  #81
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 34,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Nice straw man you built there. By that logic, we can get Malkin for ~Pominville and Leino. Quick! Somebody call Darcy and tell him!
it wasn't a straw man... the poster i quoted referred to objective value.

Jame is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:19 PM
  #82
tsujimoto74
Registered User
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
it wasn't a straw man... the poster i quoted referred to objective value.
You were the one who brought up point totals. Leino and Pominville's combined totals are about Malkin's individual totals, therefore, by your argument, that's a fair package for him.

Edit: Actually, they're a bit closer to Stamkos..Maybe we should offer that package for him and see what Steve Y thinks.

tsujimoto74 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:20 PM
  #83
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 34,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
I didn't realize a tallying of points is how you judge value. Maybe we should trade Vanek for three 4th liners if that's the case.

It's much easier to find players for Dubinsky and Boyle's roles than it is for Vanek's. In either case you're likely to get players perhaps not quite as good at those roles, which is very clearly less important in filling the roles of Dubinsky and Boyle.

Bobby Ryan hasn't shown to be any more of a winner than Thomas Vanek if you want to go that route. He joined a Stanley Cup winning team and they haven't done squat since, so maybe he's the problem. I haven't seen Dubinsky hoist a cup, nor Boyle.

I'd love to get Boyle but he's hardly a centerpiece to a Thomas Vanek trade.
if you'd like to post your "objective value" data, i'd personally be glad to tear into it in regards to Vanek for Dubi+Boyle.

Vanek is an overrated, and almost completely 1 dimensional.

Vanek is a 60 pt 1 dimensional player
Dubinsky is a 45 pt complete player

trade wise, considering they are both signed for 2 more years, and Dubinsky costs 3 million less... they are practically equals.

Adding in Boyle makes it a near landslide in Buffalo's favor

Over the last 3 years, Dubinsky has scored 18 less points per season then Vanek... in place of those 18 points... he kills penalties, wins faceoffs, hits like a truck, and costs 3 million less

Jame is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:24 PM
  #84
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 34,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
You were the one who brought up point totals. Leino and Pominville's combined totals are about Malkin's individual totals, therefore, by your argument, that's a fair package for him.

Edit: Actually, they're a bit closer to Stamkos..Maybe we should offer that package for him and see what Steve Y thinks.
i understand that you think Vanek is a franchise player like Malkin and Stamkos.

I don't feel the same way.

Jame is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:26 PM
  #85
tsujimoto74
Registered User
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
if you'd like to post your "objective value" data, i'd personally be glad to tear into it in regards to Vanek for Dubi+Boyle.

Vanek is an overrated, and almost completely 1 dimensional.

Vanek is a 60 pt 1 dimensional player
Dubinsky is a 45 pt complete player

trade wise, considering they are both signed for 2 more years, and Dubinsky costs 3 million less... they are practically equals.

Adding in Boyle makes it a near landslide in Buffalo's favor

Over the last 3 years, Dubinsky has scored 18 less points per season then Vanek... in place of those 18 points... he kills penalties, wins faceoffs, hits like a truck, and costs 3 million less
Vanek also faces shutdown pairings..Dubi and Boyle, not even close. If we remove Vanek and replace him with a slew of lesser pieces, where do other teams put their shut down effort? Probably on Ennis, an maybe Pominville. So we get rid of a scorer and reduce the effectiveness of our other scorers to fill the 3rd line with "complete" players?

Also, Vanek did PK for a stretch (I think in 08), and he scored a bunch of shorties. Ruff was just too dumb to let him keep doing that.

tsujimoto74 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:28 PM
  #86
La Cosa Nostra
The Future
 
La Cosa Nostra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
It amazes me that Sabres fans haven't come down to earth regarding the value of their loser core... even after Roy was traded.

I don't think Vanek's "objective" 60 points, is worth more then Dubinsky and Boyles combined 60 points.... do you want to look at 2011 when Vanek had 70 pts... and dubi+boyle had 90?

And after objective points... Dubinsky and Boyle are objectively better in every other way
Ok so because 2 players combined had 20 more points that means something? that's 2 players vs 1, the way you would compare them is Dubinsky and Boyle vs Vanek and 3rd line center. Those 2 aren't even close to Vaneks value. 7 straight 25+ goal seasons with minimal ice time. Those 2 aren't even in the same stratosphere in terms of value.

La Cosa Nostra is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:30 PM
  #87
tsujimoto74
Registered User
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i understand that you think Vanek is a franchise player like Malkin and Stamkos.

I don't feel the same way.
No, I don't. I think he's a very good hockey player, and you're selling him short.
Do you think Leino + Pominville gets you Stamkos? I sure as hell don't. It doesn't work for the same reason Dubi and Boyle < Vanek. It's quantity over quality. Maybe you should try to suspend your hate for the "Rochester core" for a few minutes and try to understand that a 30-40 goal scorer has more objective value than 2 15-goal scorers.

tsujimoto74 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:30 PM
  #88
Sabretip
Registered User
 
Sabretip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 7,927
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWidz8930 View Post
Why not sign Arnott? 1 yr at $3M. Not really a shutdown guy, but if you put him in between Ott and Leino you've got a line that's defensively responsible (for the most part) and will put some pucks in the net. Also could play in the top-6 if Hodgson or Ennis gets hurt.
I've been wondering if Regier is indeed considering him as a 1-year rental - granted, Arnott's age and lack of footspeed aren't selling points but he's been credited with adding a lot of stability and leadership to the Blues last season and was able to help out on their PP. He also was a respectable 50% face-off winner and still has size to make him tough to knock off the puck. Having a Cup winner in the locker room also wouldn't hurt the younger guys to be around. However, Arnott got $2.5M last summer - he's going to have to accept a pay cut a year later, not a raise.

Hodgson-Vanek-Ott
Ennis-Ryan-Foligno
Arnott-Pominville-Leino
McCormick-Kaleta-Gerbe

If Regier were to sign him on a 1-year, $1.5- 1.75M deal as depth/experience behind the 23-year old Ennis/Hodgson, and then focus on adding a scoring winger in trade for Ryan, I'd be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
Does anyone else believe that Regier doesn't foresee Grigorenko making the team this season?
There's no mystery here - Regier acknowledged that he didn't want to put pressure or rely on Grigorenko making the team this season, even adding that it would be a bonus if he did surprise.

Sabretip is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:34 PM
  #89
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 39,514
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
if you'd like to post your "objective value" data, i'd personally be glad to tear into it in regards to Vanek for Dubi+Boyle.

Vanek is an overrated, and almost completely 1 dimensional.

Vanek is a 60 pt 1 dimensional player
Dubinsky is a 45 pt complete player

trade wise, considering they are both signed for 2 more years, and Dubinsky costs 3 million less... they are practically equals.

Adding in Boyle makes it a near landslide in Buffalo's favor

Over the last 3 years, Dubinsky has scored 18 less points per season then Vanek... in place of those 18 points... he kills penalties, wins faceoffs, hits like a truck, and costs 3 million less
There is value to having a one-dimensional player like Vanek though when surrounded by complete players, as he would draw top checkers thus freeing up other lines to hopefully get some mismatches. If you were to trade Vanek, now you let teams focus more on the Foligno-Ennis-Stafford line--they don't get the same mismatches they like to feast on.

New Sabres Captain is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:35 PM
  #90
buffswords
Registered User
 
buffswords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Hamburg NY
Country: United States
Posts: 206
vCash: 500
What would NYR want for Dan Girardi?

buffswords is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:37 PM
  #91
Rob Paxon
⚔Z E M G U S⚔
 
Rob Paxon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: corfu, ny
Country: United States
Posts: 18,789
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Rob Paxon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
if you'd like to post your "objective value" data, i'd personally be glad to tear into it in regards to Vanek for Dubi+Boyle.

Vanek is an overrated, and almost completely 1 dimensional.

Vanek is a 60 pt 1 dimensional player
Dubinsky is a 45 pt complete player

trade wise, considering they are both signed for 2 more years, and Dubinsky costs 3 million less... they are practically equals.

Adding in Boyle makes it a near landslide in Buffalo's favor

Over the last 3 years, Dubinsky has scored 18 less points per season then Vanek... in place of those 18 points... he kills penalties, wins faceoffs, hits like a truck, and costs 3 million less
Right, practically equals. Get back to me when Rick Nash is traded for Dubinsky and Boyle.

Lots of players kill penalties and hit and they're obviously important. But there's a reason players like Vanek are paid substantially more (not to the level Vanek is paid though as that's an offer sheet anomaly). There's also a reason the Rangers would want Vanek, because if they had added a player like him before the Devils series, they might've won the Stanley Cup. That's why they're desperately trying to trade for Rick Nash, and that's why they would shoot Dubinsky's mother in the face as part of the trade.

Rob Paxon is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:44 PM
  #92
SabresFanInLA
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 36
vCash: 500
It seems like a foregone conclusion we are all making that the Sabres will resign Kaleta. I think they will, too, but the Ott signing does make me wonder.

Ott is sorta a 35pt Kaleta. Does Ott, along with a cheaper option in Tropp, make Kaleta expendable? We have a bit of a logjam for the 4th line (Kaleta, Ellis, Scott, McCormick, Tropp, maybe Gerbe or Adam, even Porter). Perhaps Darcy is considering using Kaleta's approx. $1.3 cap hit elsewhere? He does miss a lot of games.

That said, he played a lot of minutes last year, killed penalties, was one of our most effective defensive forwards, and is one of the best in the league at drawing penalties. I personally feel like Kaleta's hits and penalty drawing skills win us a couple games a season, and I think the Sabres know that. I just wonder if they feel like they upgraded with Ott and don't NEED Pat.

Has Darcy ever said definitively that he will resign 36?

SabresFanInLA is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:44 PM
  #93
Rhett4
KALETA REBORN
 
Rhett4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Cassidy Must Go
Country: United States
Posts: 11,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
Buffalo needs a line 4 center, they have their 3 centers already.
You're assuming Grigorenko is automatically making the team and providing the support that Ennis and Hodgson will need? I'd argue they have far more fourth line centers than 3rd. McCormick, Ellis, and Porter could all play 4C. Who can play 3C? They need a veteran 3C desperately because counting on two 22-year-olds (one of whom has played about 15 games at center in the NHL) and a rookie is asking a lot (even if that rookie is the next 95pt center).

Rhett4 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 06:46 PM
  #94
Rhett4
KALETA REBORN
 
Rhett4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Cassidy Must Go
Country: United States
Posts: 11,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFanInLA View Post
It seems like a foregone conclusion we are all making that the Sabres will resign Kaleta. I think they will, too, but the Ott signing does make me wonder.

Ott is sorta a 35pt Kaleta. Does Ott, along with a cheaper option in Tropp, make Kaleta expendable? We have a bit of a logjam for the 4th line (Kaleta, Ellis, Scott, McCormick, Tropp, maybe Gerbe or Adam, even Porter). Perhaps Darcy is considering using Kaleta's approx. $1.3 cap hit elsewhere? He does miss a lot of games.

That said, he played a lot of minutes last year, killed penalties, was one of our most effective defensive forwards, and is one of the best in the league at drawing penalties. I personally feel like Kaleta's hits and penalty drawing skills win us a couple games a season, and I think the Sabres know that. I just wonder if they feel like they upgraded with Ott and don't NEED Pat.

Has Darcy ever said definitively that he will resign 36?
They qualified him, so yes. They acquired Ott to add truculence, not replace it.

Rhett4 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 07:28 PM
  #95
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 34,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
No, I don't. I think he's a very good hockey player, and you're selling him short.
Do you think Leino + Pominville gets you Stamkos? I sure as hell don't. It doesn't work for the same reason Dubi and Boyle < Vanek. It's quantity over quality. Maybe you should try to suspend your hate for the "Rochester core" for a few minutes and try to understand that a 30-40 goal scorer has more objective value than 2 15-goal scorers.
i dont think any 2 players get you stamkos... stop trying to rationalize your terrible comparison.

if dubi is a 15 goal scorer, then vanek is a 25 goal scorer

maybe you should recognize that these turd bag 1 dimensional players need to go (roy, vanek)

maybe you should recognize NHL trade value (see derek roy)

Jame is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 07:31 PM
  #96
tsujimoto74
Registered User
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i dont think any 2 players get you stamkos... stop trying to rationalize your terrible comparison.

if dubi is a 15 goal scorer, then vanek is a 25 goal scorer

maybe you should recognize that these turd bag 1 dimensional players need to go (roy, vanek)

maybe you should recognize NHL trade value (see derek roy)
Then Dubi and Boyle don't get Vanek. That's not a terrible comparison. It's the exact argument you gave in a different context.

Derek Roy and Vanek have extremely different values for a multitude of reasons (injury, will/can he bounce back?, impending UFA, etc.), and if you don't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

tsujimoto74 is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 07:31 PM
  #97
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 34,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
There is value to having a one-dimensional player like Vanek though when surrounded by complete players, as he would draw top checkers thus freeing up other lines to hopefully get some mismatches. If you were to trade Vanek, now you let teams focus more on the Foligno-Ennis-Stafford line--they don't get the same mismatches they like to feast on.
that's absolutely true...

im more interested in being a difficult team to play against and changing the culture over the next 2 years.

the next 2 years are not contender years

Jame is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 07:33 PM
  #98
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 34,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Then Dubi and Boyle don't get Vanek. That's not a terrible comparison. It's the exact argument you gave in a different context.
stamkos / vanek is a terrible comparison in any context

Quote:
Derek Roy and Vanek have extremely different values for a multitude of reasons (injury, will/can he bounce back?, impending UFA, etc.), and if you don't see that then I don't know what to tell you.
yea... i know...
Dubi and Boyle is a lot higher trade value then Ott and salary dump

Jame is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 07:34 PM
  #99
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i dont think any 2 players get you stamkos... stop trying to rationalize your terrible comparison.

if dubi is a 15 goal scorer, then vanek is a 25 goal scorer

maybe you should recognize that these turd bag 1 dimensional players need to go (roy, vanek)

maybe you should recognize NHL trade value (see derek roy)
i think you need to step away from the stats a little, Gms pay for potential and previous accomplishments too

heartsabres* is offline  
Old
07-06-2012, 07:34 PM
  #100
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 34,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Right, practically equals. Get back to me when Rick Nash is traded for Dubinsky and Boyle.

Lots of players kill penalties and hit and they're obviously important. But there's a reason players like Vanek are paid substantially more (not to the level Vanek is paid though as that's an offer sheet anomaly). There's also a reason the Rangers would want Vanek, because if they had added a player like him before the Devils series, they might've won the Stanley Cup. That's why they're desperately trying to trade for Rick Nash, and that's why they would shoot Dubinsky's mother in the face as part of the trade.
i'll get back to you when vanek is traded for dubinsky + (ny wont trade boyle)...call the + jt miller

vanek is paid substantially more because he got a retarded offersheet.

vanek is a nice piece to add to a contender (if they can afford it)... in buffalo his best value is in trade supporting the rebuilding of quality talent around the new core

Jame is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:14 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.