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Free Agent Frenzy Part VII: It's Still Only July Edition

View Poll Results: What should the Rangers do with their two 2013 3rd round picks?
Trade both picks 15 36.59%
Trade one pick, but keep the other 10 24.39%
Hang on to both picks 16 39.02%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-06-2012, 07:53 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Not in my opinion, but I sure as hell hope that I'm wrong. That would certainly solve a lot of issues.

Also, 65-75 points is a "first line" number. But when you're trying to win a championship, you want to have players in every niche that are better than most of the other players filling the same niche for other teams. 65 points for a first liner means you're either the least valuable player on the first line for a good team, or the most valuable first liner on a not so great team (though there are always exceptions, as the Bruins showed).
There were only 21 guys in the NHL last year who scored 70 points or more. Only 9 touched 80 points. When it comes to goals, here is what I posted in the Alex Semin thread...

Only 101 forwards scored 20 or more goals last season. With 30 teams and 3 players per top line that means that a lot of 1st liners were 20-25 goal guys...so no...20 goal players do not play on the third line. This isn't 1993 anymore.

In fact only 30 forwards scored 30 goals last year. So on average each team has 1 guy who is a 30 goal scorer. And even that is skewed because of those 30 guys, two play for the Pens, two play for the Sens, three for the Sharks, three for the Devils, two for the Ducks, and two for the Habs. So really...in fact...most teams don't even have a 30 goal guy
.

So no...65 points does not mean you are the worst first liner. Would you say that about Alex Ovechkin,
Teemu Selane, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Zach Parise or Daniel Sedin? Because those are all first line guys from teams that made the playoffs last year. They all had between 65 and 69 points.

The fact of the matter is that scoring is not what it was 10-20 years ago and some people fail to realize that. There was one single 100 point player in the entire NHL last season.

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07-06-2012, 07:54 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
He's not saying we should do it now.

The Rangers were an awful team before Jagr and could've gotten a franchise first line forward.

Sting is very outspoken in his feeling that getting Jagr set the franchise back years. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do agree pre-Jagr we should've been going for top picks instead of doing what we actually did.
Dude, Sather had to come in the early 2000's and completely rebuild the scouting/development office to the Rangers. It was in shambles after the Checketts/Smith years.

The front office didn't start to stabilize until about 2003, and didn't really commence in a real game plan until 2006.

I will say that I don't think Jagr was expected to come here and do what he did. He was just a stop gap who had an unexpected resurgence.

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07-06-2012, 07:57 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
We must have different definitions of the word tanking.

Playing a team full of young players or role player veterans and not winning many games is not my idea of tanking, nor do I believe there is anything wrong with that if that happens to be the stage of the rebuilding process that your franchise finds itself in. That's the place the Rangers should have found themselves in several years ago. They chose to ignore that phase.

The Red Wings have proven that for many years, they had a far greater understanding of how to scout Sweden and Russia than any other team. That's about it. The Devils did it during an era where you didn't need top offensive talent to win. Despite Boston's win two years ago, I'd argue that elite offensive talent is still a necessity. Elite offensive talent, most of the time, is what's valued the most, and what goes at the top of the draft.

And there's very little risk of #1 picks busting. Very, very few ever have.
Tanking, "full rebuild", "full youth movement" its pretty much all the same to me. The New York Rangers have NEVER done that as an organization. I don't think can do that because of the city they play in. No ownership has ever agreed to that.

I mean christ people want to trade Del Zotto as soon as possible round these parts. Can you imagine if we have 6 players on the roster in the same development path. People would go crazy.

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07-06-2012, 07:59 PM
  #354
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Dude the only other way your going to get top draft picks other then tanking is trading quality. Do you want to give up Marc Staal? Hank?

Cause that is what your looking at if you want to pick #1 overall. On top of that, its not like you can do that every year. You got to be very creative to pull it off, and right opportunity has to come.

Red Wings have proven you don't need #1 draft picks to contend. New Jersey was competitive forever without #1 draft picks.

Not to mention, you run the risk of some of those #1 draft picks busting.
You're refusing to actually engage in the discussion, because you're starting out by insisting that Sting agree to the word "tank". It's like saying "have you stopped beating your wife?" and then insisting that the person simply answer the question yes or no without recourse to other options like "I never beat her" or "I don't have a wife".

What Sting is saying is that there were quite a few good many years during the last decade where the team did whatever it had to in order to make the playoffs. In all of those years it was clear that the team didn't have the quality to proceed beyond the first round, but they did it anyway. Had they not made deadline trades for reinforcements or spent in free agency to get 2nd tier players (and god forbid they should ever have actually have been sellers at any point), the natural course of events would have allowed them to finish in the lottery and given them an opportunity to strike gold with a Stamkos, Tavares, etc.

This is not hard to understand, but those in the Thou Must Always Strive to Thine Utmost to Make the Playoffs camp will forever dismiss the concept by labeling it as "tanking".

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07-06-2012, 08:01 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
There were only 21 guys in the NHL last year who scored 70 points or more. Only 9 touched 80 points. When it comes to goals, here is what I posted in the Alex Semin thread...

Only 101 forwards scored 20 or more goals last season. With 30 teams and 3 players per top line that means that a lot of 1st liners were 20-25 goal guys...so no...20 goal players do not play on the third line. This isn't 1993 anymore.

In fact only 30 forwards scored 30 goals last year. So on average each team has 1 guy who is a 30 goal scorer. And even that is skewed because of those 30 guys, two play for the Pens, two play for the Sens, three for the Sharks, three for the Devils, two for the Ducks, and two for the Habs. So really...in fact...most teams don't even have a 30 goal guy
.

So no...65 points does not mean you are the worst first liner. Would you say that about Alex Ovechkin,
Teemu Selane, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Zach Parise or Daniel Sedin? Because those are all first line guys from teams that made the playoffs last year. They all had between 65 and 69 points.
Quote:
The fact of the matter is that scoring is not what it was 10-20 years ago and some people fail to realize that. There was one single 100 point player in the entire NHL last season.
It's definitely going down again, but some of those guys also scored 65-69 points because they were injured. One of them is over 40 years old, and while an amazing player, is no longer an "elite" scorer.

What's really important to look at is points per game, and you notice that most of the best teams in the league have multiple players whose points per game average is in the 1 point per game range. And if you don't have one or two players like that, it's very difficult to win.

Regardless, I just don't see Kreider ever scoring 65-75 points. I think he's a great young player, who could end up being invaluable because of his athletic ability, his versatility and usability in numerous different situations, and I do think he'll get get his fair share of points and goals. Just not 65-75.

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07-06-2012, 08:02 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Tanking, "full rebuild", "full youth movement" its pretty much all the same to me. The New York Rangers have NEVER done that as an organization. I don't think can do that because of the city they play in. No ownership has ever agreed to that.

I mean christ people want to trade Del Zotto as soon as possible round these parts. Can you imagine if we have 6 players on the roster in the same development path. People would go crazy.
This is what boggles my mind the most. You simply don't trade a 22 year old two way defenseman that scored 11 goals and 41 points last season, just like you don't trade a 21 year old center that just scored 51 points last season.

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07-06-2012, 08:03 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by nsvoyageurs View Post
For an update on the Coyotes situation, for those who want Shane Doan:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4393492/
Can they financially afford to keep him?

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07-06-2012, 08:08 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
You're refusing to actually engage in the discussion, because you're starting out by insisting that Sting agree to the word "tank". It's like saying "have you stopped beating your wife?" and then insisting that the person simply answer the question yes or no without recourse to other options like "I never beat her" or "I don't have a wife".

What Sting is saying is that there were quite a few good many years during the last decade where the team did whatever it had to in order to make the playoffs. In all of those years it was clear that the team didn't have the quality to proceed beyond the first round, but they did it anyway. Had they not made deadline trades for reinforcements or spent in free agency to get 2nd tier players (and god forbid they should ever have actually have been sellers at any point), the natural course of events would have allowed them to finish in the lottery and given them an opportunity to strike gold with a Stamkos, Tavares, etc.

This is not hard to understand, but those in the Thou Must Always Strive to Thine Utmost to Make the Playoffs camp will forever dismiss the concept by labeling it as "tanking".
It semantics. No matter what you want to call it.

Now, your also saying that I think its a bad thing? Not necessarily, its an approach. Its approach that can work, and is pretty much the only way to build top to bottom. It worked with Chicago, it worked with Pitt, it may work with Edmonton.

But you can build in other ways. Different GM's/markets have different approaches.

If you guys think "tanking" was the way to go, thats fine. But lets not sugar coat it.

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07-06-2012, 08:09 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Tanking, "full rebuild", "full youth movement" its pretty much all the same to me. The New York Rangers have NEVER done that as an organization. I don't think can do that because of the city they play in. No ownership has ever agreed to that.

I mean christ people want to trade Del Zotto as soon as possible round these parts. Can you imagine if we have 6 players on the roster in the same development path. People would go crazy.
It's not the same to me at all. Tanking, AFAIC, is a concerted effort to create artificially -induced negative results in order to gain high draft picks. The entire point of drafts is to make team sports somewhat cyclical. If your team is in the rebuilding process, then there is nothing wrong with being "bad" and getting high draft picks. That's why there is a draft.

And I think you can do it perfectly easily. They pretty much did it unintentionally a number of times, they just missed being so bad that they would get a really high pick. 1999? 2004? 2005? The idea that it would somehow affect the fans is ludicrous. The fans would not only come back, but with that #1 pick on the roster, the fanbase would explode.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about in regards to rebuilding the scouting department. Sather's idea of rebuilding the front office here was full-on nepotism and cronyism. He hired his friends. I'm not even going to touch the three years to commence the game plan thing. That's absurd.

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07-06-2012, 08:12 PM
  #360
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Can they financially afford to keep him?
He wants to stay there if they do. He loves it there. Imo he would give them a HTD

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07-06-2012, 08:14 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Tanking, "full rebuild", "full youth movement" its pretty much all the same to me. The New York Rangers have NEVER done that as an organization. I don't think can do that because of the city they play in. No ownership has ever agreed to that.

I mean christ people want to trade Del Zotto as soon as possible round these parts. Can you imagine if we have 6 players on the roster in the same development path. People would go crazy.
Nash is the only guy people have been willing to give up mdz for. Let's not act like we would trade mdz for just anyone. A 30-40 goal scorer when we need a top 6 guy? Yup u betcha

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07-06-2012, 08:15 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
It's not the same to me at all. Tanking, AFAIC, is a concerted effort to create artificially -induced negative results in order to gain high draft picks. The entire point of drafts is to make team sports somewhat cyclical. If your team is in the rebuilding process, then there is nothing wrong with being "bad" and getting high draft picks. That's why there is a draft.

And I think you can do it perfectly easily. They pretty much did it unintentionally a number of times, they just missed being so bad that they would get a really high pick. 1999? 2004? 2005? The idea that it would somehow affect the fans is ludicrous. The fans would not only come back, but with that #1 pick on the roster, the fanbase would explode.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about in regards to rebuilding the scouting department. Sather's idea of rebuilding the front office here was full-on nepotism and cronyism. He hired his friends. I'm not even going to touch the three years to commence the game plan thing. That's absurd.
Exactly. Tanking is sitting good players in favor of lesser performers, making lopsided (against you) trades, not promoting stud prospects who have nothing left to prove in the minors - all with a goal of artificially decreasing your performance.

Simply accepting the natural course of events (and rolling with it by making trades geared for the future, rather than the here and now) without scrambling to apply every bandaid available to limp into the 8th seed, is not.

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07-06-2012, 08:17 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
It's definitely going down again, but some of those guys also scored 65-69 points because they were injured. One of them is over 40 years old, and while an amazing player, is no longer an "elite" scorer.

What's really important to look at is points per game, and you notice that most of the best teams in the league have multiple players whose points per game average is in the 1 point per game range. And if you don't have one or two players like that, it's very difficult to win.

Regardless, I just don't see Kreider ever scoring 65-75 points. I think he's a great young player, who could end up being invaluable because of his athletic ability, his versatility and usability in numerous different situations, and I do think he'll get get his fair share of points and goals. Just not 65-75.
Only two of the guys I mentioned played less than 78 games (sedin - 72 & datsyuk 70). Hell throw Patty Kane in there. He had 66 in 82.

As for PPG...the Kings has no one average a PPG...Kopitar was the only one close. Philly only had one guy close (Giroux). In fact, other than Pittsburgh no one had two guys at a ppg. The Rangers have a guy in that range.

I honestly think you are over estimating how many point per game players there are in the NHL anymore. In fact only 7 players played in 60+ games and averaged 1.0 points/game or better. There are prolly 35-45 more in the 0.8 - 0.9 range and if that is the range you want then the Rangers already have two of those guys.

Side Note: I agree Jagr set us back... But honestly we are good now so I don't care anymore.

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07-06-2012, 08:18 PM
  #364
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The Red Wings real gold was struck in the 3rd rd with a top 5 dman of all time!

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07-06-2012, 08:31 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by dtrap View Post
Only two of the guys I mentioned played less than 78 games (sedin - 72 & datsyuk 70). Hell throw Patty Kane in there. He had 66 in 82.

As for PPG...the Kings has no one average a PPG...Kopitar was the only one close. Philly only had one guy close (Giroux). In fact, other than Pittsburgh no one had two guys at a ppg. The Rangers have a guy in that range.

I honestly think you are over estimating how many point per game players there are in the NHL anymore. In fact only 7 players played in 60+ games and averaged 1.0 points/game or better. There are prolly 35-45 more in the 0.8 - 0.9 range and if that is the range you want then the Rangers already have two of those guys.

Side Note: I agree Jagr set us back... But honestly we are good now so I don't care anymore.
Yes, I consider .8 and .9 to be in that range. And we do have two guys like that. But both of our players in that range are either in their prime or exiting it, and we had to pay them exorbitant contracts to acquire them.

PIT: Two guys with .9 PPG or more, plus Crosby doing it as well in his 20 games.
CHI: Three guys with .9 PPG, plus Kane at .8
VAN: Two guys with .9
NJ: Two guys with .9
OTT: basically 4 guys at .8 or higher

Definitely, scoring is going down again over the last two seasons. But I think both the Bruins and the Kings are anomalies. The Bruins got lucky that the Penguins were decimated with injuries, and the Kings were an awesome team that went through a midseason coaching change and had way more talent than their scoring production indicated during the regular season. Mike Richards is not a 44 point player. They also didn't have Gagne for most of the year.

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07-06-2012, 08:31 PM
  #366
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Only 2 teams can get the top two pics...

I can't imagine us doing too much worse than the year we ended up getting Brendl and Lundmark. Didn't do us much good.

...and yes I said Art Ross regarding Nash. In 2009 he had 79 points with Voracek, Umberger and the mighty Huselius as the other top point getters. He was 40-39-79 with those guys. Is it delusional to think that he could be 45-49-94 with the Rangers? I don't think so.

The award could be won with that many points. St. Louis did it in 2004. Even if the Sedins or sid or some body else get 100+ Nash will still have been in competition for the award. It is not crazy to think this.

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07-06-2012, 08:35 PM
  #367
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I can't imagine us doing too much worse than the year we ended up getting Brendl and Lundmark. Didn't do us much good.

...and yes I said Art Ross regarding Nash. In 2009 he had 79 points with Voracek, Umberger and the mighty Huselius as the other top point getters. He was 40-39-79 with those guys. Is it delusional to think that he could be 45-49-94 with the Rangers? I don't think so.

The award could be won with that many points. St. Louis did it in 2004. Even if the Sedins or sid or some body else get 100+ Nash will still have been in competition for the award. It is not crazy to think this.
Nash just being a 35 40 guy for this team would be HUGE

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07-06-2012, 08:37 PM
  #368
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This is what boggles my mind the most. You simply don't trade a 22 year old two way defenseman that scored 11 goals and 41 points last season, just like you don't trade a 21 year old center that just scored 51 points last season.
You're quick to defend Del Zotto and Stepan, but not quick to offer a potential fix to our top six. It's ignorant to think people want MDZ gone. We want a good return in a trade, and I'd hate to break it to you: Dubinsky isn't gonna bring it.

In fact... I've yet to see a single post explaining how we can fix the top six without moving Del Zotto (or Stepan)... other than UFA-- and that raises another problem with our cap... if we give Semin a competitive offer for a retirement contract(5+years price based on what else he's being offered-- at least 5.5m I'd guess) knowing the risk-- or a competitive offer on Doan for the rumored FIVE YEARS that he wants at his age, then we're losing a kid to salary cap in the next few years anyway for bigger risks than we'd get in a solid trade.

You guys that keep complaining about people 'wanting' to move Del Zotto is just flat out ignorant and baseless. Find somebody else to move or don't complain about it... There's really nobody else on the roster. Not everybody can be untouchable.

Sure we can survive without upgrading our top 6, but if we get somebody like Ryan or Nash in a trade focused on Del Zotto then we're gaining more than we lose. Might be an older guy, but we're getting return based on MDZ's age and the need of both teams.

and I'm not saying it's a MUST to make a trade or sign a free agent-- but it's clear that it is an important piece to fill going forward, and if MDZ can't play the right side, and staal/mcdonagh can't either, then MDZ is a 3rd pairing defenseman on this team... which is without a doubt replaceable.

and it's for a big return that people would be 'willing' to move MDZ for. if he wasn't getting back a 30-40 goal scorer then nobody would even consider it.
i mean look at the poll on JVR for MDZ... the results were pretty obvious that people like MDZ and wouldn't give him up for just anybody.

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07-06-2012, 08:40 PM
  #369
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Well said.


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07-06-2012, 08:46 PM
  #370
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My God! When is this situation going to be resolve? Sorry, but I am personally sick of it already. Can't stop but to look at at this thread over and over again.

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07-06-2012, 08:50 PM
  #371
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My God! When is this situation going to be resolve? Sorry, but I am personally sick of it already. Can't stop but to look at at this thread over and over again.
Nash? Maybe next week(but has a chance to drag into August). I think we are waiting for Doan atm. I think he would make a decision by Sunday or Tuesday at the latest.

Howson may panic if it looks like we are moving in on Doan. Personally, I am getting to the point of apathy about the whole thing.

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07-06-2012, 08:51 PM
  #372
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You're quick to defend Del Zotto and Stepan, but not quick to offer a potential fix to our top six. It's ignorant to think people want MDZ gone. We want a good return in a trade, and I'd hate to break it to you: Dubinsky isn't gonna bring it.

In fact... I've yet to see a single post explaining how we can fix the top six without moving Del Zotto (or Stepan)... other than UFA-- and that raises another problem with our cap... if we give Semin a competitive offer for a retirement contract(5+years price based on what else he's being offered-- at least 5.5m I'd guess) knowing the risk-- or a competitive offer on Doan for the rumored FIVE YEARS that he wants at his age, then we're losing a kid to salary cap in the next few years anyway for bigger risks than we'd get in a solid trade.

You guys that keep complaining about people 'wanting' to move Del Zotto is just flat out ignorant and baseless. Find somebody else to move or don't complain about it... There's really nobody else on the roster. Not everybody can be untouchable.

Sure we can survive without upgrading our top 6,
but if we get somebody like Ryan or Nash in a trade focused on Del Zotto then we're gaining more than we lose. Might be an older guy, but we're getting return based on MDZ's age and the need of both teams.

and I'm not saying it's a MUST to make a trade or sign a free agent-- but it's clear that it is an important piece to fill going forward, and if MDZ can't play the right side, and staal/mcdonagh can't either, then MDZ is a 3rd pairing defenseman on this team... which is without a doubt replaceable.

and it's for a big return that people would be 'willing' to move MDZ for. if he wasn't getting back a 30-40 goal scorer then nobody would even consider it.
i mean look at the poll on JVR for MDZ... the results were pretty obvious that people like MDZ and wouldn't give him up for just anybody.
My answer to this is go to war with what we have if management doesn't think the time is right for a trade. Sure, you have to give to get, but what some people don't understand is that Sather and Rick Nash hold all of the cards right now. Nash demanded a trade and wants out. You can't blame Howson for asking for the moon, but he's going to lose Nash for peanuts, and deep down he knows it. At this point he's prolonging the inevitable.

My point is that deals can be had without giving up major pieces. If a deal can't be made, let it play out until the deadline and re-assess.

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07-06-2012, 08:56 PM
  #373
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Nash? Maybe next week(but has a chance to drag into August). I think we are waiting for Doan atm. I think he would make a decision by Sunday or Tuesday at the latest.

Howson may panic if it looks like we are moving in on Doan. Personally, I am getting to the point of apathy about the whole thing.
I just really want this team to compete on a high level just like Detroit does for years. I am afraid Sather will do something stupid.

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07-06-2012, 09:01 PM
  #374
Lundsanity30
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Uhh why would howson lose Nash for peanuts? Don't like the return? Don't trade him. Don't like it Nash? Too bad. You signed the contract. Seriously is anyone else but me sick of athletes whining about wanting to get out of committed contracts??

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07-06-2012, 09:02 PM
  #375
Lundsanity30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw2004 View Post
I just really want this team to compete on a high level just like Detroit does for years. I am afraid Sather will do something stupid.
Eh at the worst, he would include stepan. He wont move kreider or mcd. That won't set us back especially when we added a goal scorer in Nash

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