I don't know if anyone responded to this when I originally asked it. But in a 7 game series is Hasek more reliable than Fuhr? We can all agree Hasek had the better career and peak. But Fuhr is on a very, very short list of goalies who you would want in net in a tight game or series, or even in overtime. I really don't think there is any difference at all in that circumstance.
Have you, perchance, missed the 98 Olympics? How did Hasek do in OT against Canada?
But how the ***** are the Oilers going to stop the Red Wings? I'm sure Coffey and Lowe can handle like 6 600+ goal scorers no problem. And a player with probably the quickest hands in hockey ever.
Even if noodle legs Wayne puts up 3 points a game, they still lose pretty easy.
1st bold: Yes, usually that would be a sign as to who the better team was...
Many of those guys in those years did well in the season, were expected to do very well in the playoffs, and then disappointed. Yzerman scored 10 points in 6 games but was a -7(!) in the playoffs.
If Hull and Yzerman can't do well against the 89 Hawks and 91 Stars, how do they fare against Conn Smythe-worthy lines? Even Fedorov's 94 season saw him become a minus player agaist the 8th seeded Sharks.
The Oilers at their optimum level are going to give you some of the best playoff performances ever. A lot of the optimal Wings are early round playoff exits.
Are you serious here? A series result isnt entirely or even mostly attributable to individual players. You have failed to consider the VASTLY different team contexts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike
Gotcha. Wings fail to outscore Avs at ES with 97 Fedorov on the ice, therefore they can surely contain/outscore Gretzky's 47 point +28 year, Coffey's 37 point +26 year and Kurri's 19 goal +24 season. And after preventing the Green Unit from getting a single shot on goal for 1:26, Mark Messier would crumble before the puck possession skills of people that didn't practice puck possession together for 300 days a year.
02 Lidstrom went -4 against the Blues
08 Datsyuk was a +1 vs the Pens with very little offense
98 Yzerman was a minus player against the Phoenix Coyotes. Overall I'm less critical because of his offense on the PP, but just saying his defense may be overrated.
98 Hasek is legitimately scary, but even then I don't know how that holds up over a 7 game series with a team that isn't as dedicated to defense as the 1998 Czechs. That year Hasek was good but Olaf Kolzig was clearly better in the playoffs.
I think the defensive reputations of the Peak Wings players overshadow their actual performances. They could give up more goals than they scored against fairly average opposition. Gretzky-Kurri-Coffey-Messier had Smythe-worthy efforts and outscored the opposition by a healthy margin, even the teams like 84 Isles, 85 Flyers or 88 Flames/Bruins that were better than the teams that outscored these peak Wings.
Here you are cherrypicking +/- of all things in select series (again failing to account for even things like injuries). I can ofc play that game too:
Gretzky 85 in 3 games vs LA Kings: 0 goals 4 assists. ****ing awful for a player who scored at a 2.5 ppg clip in the regular season (87 goals).
Gretzky 87 in 5 games vs Detroit: 0 goals 2 assists. 180 points in the regular ssn. Did I describe the previous example as ****ing awful? I take it back there and place it here. Forget 02 Red Wings - all in their prime - whats up with the 87 Red Wings of all teams?
Yes prime Gretzky is BY FAR the best player in this comparison and likely in any comparison. But other than him who else? Coffey in the 80s has insane numbers and likely better than 95 Coffey which was the best year by a D i ever saw but peak Yzerman, Fedorov at least compare if not surpass. Peak Messier is likely behind all 3 so. Hull matches up to Kurri in goalscoring. OK Hull cant play D while scoring 86 goals you say? Let's just add Datsyuk for a two way player (on his line for synergy). Kurri alone certainly cant be better than those two. Robitaille matches well to Anderson but if you dont agree just add Larionov. Is Anderson better than both? I dont know much about the Oiler role players but Draper has got to be better doesnt he? Forgetting McCarty, Maltby too.
Lidstrom and Chelios on D as compared to (keep in mind that i count Coffey as a primarily offensive player)? Huge gap.
Hasek vs Fuhr? Even granting that Fuhr was (by popular acclaim at least) clutch?
So can Gretzky alone account for those gaps? I dont think so. Hockey is too much of a team sport.
Yes the real life 84 Oilers would prolly beat the real life 02 Red Wings. Maybe even pretty easily. With all players in their prime the Red Wings have a ridiculous advantage because of the over the hill marquee names they brought on. Like someone said only Lidstrom was really in his peak for the 02 Red Wings whereas for the Oilers it seems like all but Messier were at least very close to their peak.
Why do I feel that so many of you guys are ignoring the entire premise that every Detroit player would be in their prime?
My goodness.
Detroit's 3rd line center would likely be a guy who won consecutive Selkes while finishing 4th in scoring behind only Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin.
Detroit's goaltender would be the guy who could single handedly win a game more so than any other goalie in the history of the game.
If you want to argue that the entire premise is unfair, sure I get it. But why are people either ignoring or acting like Detroit's 02 roster in their prime (all 8-9 HOFers) couldn't beat the team of the 80s?
It is very clear most of you were too young to remember the 1980s, or not that smart about the game of hockey. I think that in certain areas of North America, there are some people who think they know the game, but clearly do not. Oilers in 5.
But how the ***** are the Oilers going to stop the Red Wings? I'm sure Coffey and Lowe can handle like 6 600+ goal scorers no problem. And a player with probably the quickest hands in hockey ever.
Even if noodle legs Wayne puts up 3 points a game, they still lose pretty easy.
It's been pointed out, repeatedly -- if you get into a skill-on-skill game versus the 80s Oilers, you lose. Only the 83 Isles, the 86 Flames and the 89 Kings managed to beat them from 83-90. The 83 Isles were of course a dynasty. The 86 Flames caught a cocky 86 Oilers. The 89 Kings were a Gretzky squad - so it was if you had Oilers A vs Oilers B. Someone had to lose. The Oilers got rematches against all three adversaries - and pasted them to the tune of 12 wins and a loss in 13 games en route to three dominant series victories and then Cups.
Some say those of us who saw the 80s Oilers are just being nostalgic for them - I would say we remember just how incredibly good that team was. To put it another way, against their real live opponents in that 8-season span from 1983 to 1990, they played 28 playoff series and won 25 of them - and only lost to a truly superior opponent once, whom they promptly surpassed the next season and made it look easy.
Fantasize all you want about that 02 Wings squad and what mighta, coulda, shoulda been -- I'll go with the real-life results.
That's exactly what the thread is about, "mighta," "coulda", etc. The WINGS IN THEIR PRIME. Get it? Not the real 02 team (which, by all accounts, would have given the Oilers a run for their money), but a fantasy superteam. Which would have killed the Oilers, on defense and in goal alone.
Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 07-06-2012 at 10:34 PM.
Reason: Flaming
And upfront, for every superstar that Oilers have, the in-their-prime Wings have two, and each one (even Shanahan) had to learn defensive responsibilities.
Gretzky = Yzerman + Feds
Kurri < Robitaille + Larionov
Messier < Datsyuk + Hull
Anderson < Shanahan + Holmstrom
And I don't see anybody on Oilers D who could contain Detroit's firepower.
BTW, I also think that both Fedorov and Datsyuk (four Selkes between them, I believe?) could be tasked with simply containing Gretzky. They both were frequently counted on to provide offense as well, but with 88 Larionov and 89 Yzerman centering Holmstrom, Shanahan, Robitaille and Hull, those two could be sacrificed. And to a good result.
Surprised there is as much of a debate surrounding this one. 2002 Wings all at their peak wipes the floor with the Oilers. Better depth at every position and far better defense and goaltending. Gretzky might win a game on his own, but he can't play 60 minutes, unlike the Wings with 4 lines of Hall of Fame forwards.
Surprised there is as much of a debate surrounding this one. 2002 Wings all at their peak wipes the floor with the Oilers. Better depth at every position and far better defense and goaltending. Gretzky might win a game on his own, but he can't play 60 minutes, unlike the Wings with 4 lines of Hall of Fame forwards.
Which centers do the Wings have who can stand up to peak Messier physically?
BTW, I also think that both Fedorov and Datsyuk (four Selkes between them, I believe?) could be tasked with simply containing Gretzky. They both were frequently counted on to provide offense as well, but with 88 Larionov and 89 Yzerman centering Holmstrom, Shanahan, Robitaille and Hull, those two could be sacrificed. And to a good result.
5 Selke's, and one for Yzerman. This is so one-sided.
Again, goddamnit, we are not looking at 1987 Hasek, but at 1998 Hasek. The one that stopped every superstar in Canada and Russia.
Isn't he the same Hasek that lost three overtime games to the Capitals in one series? Hasek wasn't immune to being outplayed in a seven-game series in his prime. If we're taking them at their best and Fuhr plays like he did in the 1984 playoffs, there's really no difference in net unless we're going to host this series six years in a row with natural aging.
Which centers do the Wings have who can stand up to peak Messier physically?
That's like trying to stand up to Lindros physically - not the best way to play them. Prime Fedorov, Datsyuk, Larionov and Draper are a murderers row of smart defensive centers... Not a single one of that Edmonton can match when it comes to covering prime Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Larionov, Shanahan.
I'm just surprised anyone is arguing for the Oilers.
Isn't he the same Hasek that lost three overtime games to the Capitals in one series? Hasek wasn't immune to being outplayed in a seven-game series in his prime. If we're taking them at their best and Fuhr plays like he did in the 1984 playoffs, there's really no difference in net unless we're going to host this series six years in a row with natural aging.
What I find funny about this is that Hasek is basically all but consensus a top 5 goalie all-time and well ahead of Fuhr in most serious appraisals, but then you get "welll, maybe Fuhr can outplay him anyway..." but at the same time we're supposed to believe Messier and Gretzky will just skate circles around Yzerman and Fedorov because the former are ranked higher on all-time rankings than the latter.
Just an example of how people seem so keen to make this come out the Oilers' way against all logic.
Which centers do the Wings have who can stand up to peak Messier physically?
The Red Wings were able to stand up to the Legion of doom line, who had unbelievable size in 1997. I think the grind line(in their prime) is enough to shut down Messier's line.
Jari Kurri was a great two way player, with a huge offensive upside, moreso than Fedorov.
I don't think so. Kurri at his best was the second best scorer in the NHL and so was Fyodorov. The difference is: Kurri achieved that while playing with the first best scorer, Wayne Gretzky. Not so Fyodorov.
The Red Wings were able to stand up to the Legion of doom line, who had unbelievable size in 1997. I think the grind line(in their prime) is enough to shut down Messier's line.
Detroit should win this series.
Ok and if the Wings put as much effort into stopping Messier's line as they did in stopping the LoD line, who do you have left to counter Gretzky, who is the much bigger threat in the first place?
Again, if you have the Grind line and the Fed line out there countering the Gretz and Mess lines for 40-45 mins a game, you now have 15-20 mins of icetime left to split between your remaining 2 scoring lines.
Having a prime Luc, a prime Hull, a prime Larionov is all well and good but it doesn't mean squat if they're only getting 3rd and 4th line minutes now does it?
Do people not realise we're talking about Gretzky in '84 here???
Even if you shadow him and get your best checkers out there on him 90% of the time, he's still going to burn you and if he doesn't Messier's line will.
Best you can hope for is to limit him, you're not going to actually shut him down and then you have to be able to put enough pucks into their net to win the game.
Waiting for PP opportunities and only giving your 2 scoring lines combined 15-20 mins of ice aint gonna cut it.
Playing defense first is not going work against that Oilers team.
Best bet will be to completely load up a scoring line to go against Gretzky's line to keep up with their production as best they can.
Then try to actually shut down the Messier line leaving you with a pretty good 2nd scoring line to go against the Oiler's 3rd line and hope. in limited minutes, they can make up the difference of your 1rst line.
Either way, I still see the Oilers coming out on top.
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 07-07-2012 at 07:21 AM.
Let's say Detroit plays Fedorov-Datsyuk-Shanahan against Gretzky, backed by Lidstrom and Olausson. 5 Selkes and 7 Norrises between them, all can stand to physical pressure, and all can provide ample offense, especially on the counterattack. All are superb shots, superb passers, can play phenomenal puck control, and can beat you one on one. Who's gonna stop them once they have puck,Lowe? If Gretzky-Kurry-Semenko play 25 minutes at ES, FDS can match them minute-for-minute. How many times, do you think Semenko and Coffey will cough up the puck, and then you have the odd-man-rush?
Now, the Grind Line with Chelios and Fischer plays against Messier. They did fine against Forsberg and Legion of Doom and can legitimately score on their own (Draper scored theever-important first goal of the 97 campaign and McCarty the beautiful last one). If Detroit has the last change, the Messier line can be countered with Yzerman-Holmstrom-Robitaille that will give Messier nightmares in his own end.
At other times Y-H-R line will be destroying the 3rd line of Oilers and, like I said before, Larionov and Hull don't need a lot of time to set up, shoot, and score.
When Detroit has PP (and they will have plenty), fresh Larionov, Robitaille, Hull, Yzerman, and Holmstrom should have no problems lighting it up.
The problem is, of course, we will never know for sure, but every sensible appraisal amounts to Wings in 5.
Ok and if the Wings put as much effort into stopping Messier's line as they did in stopping the LoD line, who do you have left to counter Gretzky, who is the much bigger threat in the first place?
Again, if you have the Grind line and the Fed line out there countering the Gretz and Mess lines for 40-45 mins a game, you now have 15-20 mins of icetime left to split between your remaining 2 scoring lines.
Having a prime Luc, a prime Hull, a prime Larionov is all well and good but it doesn't mean squat if they're only getting 3rd and 4th line minutes now does it?
Do people not realise we're talking about Gretzky in '84 here???
Even if you shadow him and get your best checkers out there on him 90% of the time, he's still going to burn you and if he doesn't Messier's line will.
Best you can hope for is to limit him, you're not going to actually shut him down and then you have to be able to put enough pucks into their net to win the game.
Waiting for PP opportunities and only giving your 2 scoring lines combined 15-20 mins of ice aint gonna cut it.
Playing defense first is not going work against that Oilers team.
Best bet will be to completely load up a scoring line to go against Gretzky's line to keep up with their production as best they can.
Then try to actually shut down the Messier line leaving you with a pretty good 2nd scoring line to go against the Oiler's 3rd line and hope. in limited minutes, they can make up the difference of your 1rst line.
Either way, I still see the Oilers coming out on top.
All of Detroits lines can be used in shutdown roles. That doesnt seem to get through to you. Having the line of Shanahan - Yzerman - Fedorov and Lidström - Olausson will be good enough to score againt Oilers and slow down Gretzky. Now they have 3 other lines to cover for the rest of the Oilers team.
The fact is that this is the Detorit players at their best. Duchesne at his best were a top pairing defenseman on most contending teams and he is a third pairing guy on this.
The fact is that neither the Habs nor the Isles were at their best in '84. Thats the point of this thread. Its fantasy and in that fantasy Red Wings will most likely beat the Oilers although marginally (which already said)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs
Bowman would probably use the more physical pairing Fischer - Chelios vs Anderson - Messier.
The thing is that Bowman has alot of defensively responsible players to play on the ice.
Feds, Yzerman, Datsyuk, Larionov, Draper, Deveraux, Maltby and McCarty. He's got alot of options..
The Red Wings were able to stand up to the Legion of doom line, who had unbelievable size in 1997. I think the grind line(in their prime) is enough to shut down Messier's line.
Detroit should win this series.
This is Mark Messier we're talking about, not Eric Lindros! Mark Messier, one of the greatest playoff performers of all time, not Eric Lindros. Mark Messier, a guy as fast and smart as just about any player in the league (probably not quite as fast as Fedorov, but right up there with Yzerman). I realize prime Messier never faced the Bowman Wings in the playoffs, but he played the Lemaire Devils twice, and many times in the regular season, and he was the one player who really couldn't be slowed down by the trap.
Interesting that the Wings fans all went to the Lindros example, not the Forsberg one. Forsberg was physical, but also fast and smart and he gave the Wings fits. And prime Messier was faster than Forsberg.
Not to mention, Lidstrom is going to have his hands full with Gretzky on a different line. There are reasons to pick the Wings, but the matchups at center highly favor Edmonton
the oilers skate circles and outskill the wings as they'd done so many times but to a lesser extent and still win in 4 or 5.
But the worry is if it gets to 6 or 7 games. Bowman would have more different types of tools at his disposal and have versatility to play different styles of hockey; run and gun, the trap, physically grinding. He'd play the matchup game he always did and say what you will about any other aspect but Bowman outcoaches Sather in all 7 games hands down.
Game 1 I'd pick Edmonton and keep picking them until the wings find a way to beat them but if they do and it gets down to a 7th game, I'm taking detroit.
All of Detroits lines can be used in shutdown roles. That doesnt seem to get through to you. Having the line of Shanahan - Yzerman - Fedorov and Lidström - Olausson will be good enough to score againt Oilers and slow down Gretzky. Now they have 3 other lines to cover for the rest of the Oilers team.
The fact is that this is the Detorit players at their best. Duchesne at his best were a top pairing defenseman on most contending teams and he is a third pairing guy on this.
The fact is that neither the Habs nor the Isles were at their best in '84. Thats the point of this thread. Its fantasy and in that fantasy Red Wings will most likely beat the Oilers although marginally (which already said)
I'm sorry, which Yzerman are you taking here? The Selke winning one or the one in his prime? Two very different players my friend and I'm sorry, you can't have both and Shanny in his prime was not exactly a defensive stalwart heh.
And what's your definition of "slowing" Gretzky down, that he only gets 2-3 points a game instead of 3-4?
The only time this series will be close is in Detroit, when playing in Edmonton, the Oilers will destroy them.
As good as Lidstrom was in his prime, a prime Potvin was better and Gretzky gave him absolute fits.
We're not talking about shutting down the high scoring '10 Caps here, we're talking about shutting down the greatest offensive machine in NHL history that produced an ungodly 446 freakin goals.
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 07-07-2012 at 09:56 AM.
I just find a lot of hilarity in the fact that the '02 Wings have to be pimped out to the nines just to have a shot at a team as they actually were.
Personally I think Hasek would get chased in 2-3 of the 5 games it would take for the Oilers to beat them. I think people are taking Gretzky and the whole Oiler team from the mid 80's for that matter, far, far too lightly.But hey, that's just me.
I'm only 23, so I wasn't born at the time of the Oilers, and I will not pretend to know. However, you're doing the exact same thing to the Red Wings. Hasek gets chased in 2-3 of the 5 games it takes to dispatch the Red Wings? A past his prime Hasek stood toe to toe with Roy and the championship Av's and got 2 shutouts. He's considered a top 5, and usually a top 3 goalie of all-time, and the Red Wings have tons of great players. Even without the "in their prime" part, I think it's disrespectful to players like Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Shanny, ect, who won multiple titles of their own to just act like they'd fold up like a chair in 5 games.
The Oilers may have been great, but so were these Wings. Great 2 way players, smart hof caliber players, great defenseman, a great goalie, a tremendous will to win of a veteran team realizing a championship is all that matters.
5 games....please.
Last edited by 5lidyzer19: 07-07-2012 at 10:34 AM.
