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Minnesota's Salary Cap (Non) Situation

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Old
07-06-2012, 11:37 PM
  #26
IHaveNoCreativity
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Originally Posted by PuckInTheNards View Post
If you're Pittsburgh or Detroit, then your ******** is nothing more than arrogance and a sense of entitlement. The rest of the league should roll over because you're an Original 6 team or because you had the good fortune to draft Crosby?
That's basically it.

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07-07-2012, 12:25 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
I'd contend that Granlund, Brodin, Coyle, Dumba and Hackett are "blue-chip talents".
Good, It took Pit Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Letang, Det had everything, Chicago needed Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and L.A. somehow managed to trade for Philly's top line beyond having Quick, Kopitar and Doughty. Comparing yourself to Boston is a long shot since it was a HARD road for them to win.

All of the sudden you Minny fans land a 1st line LW and #1/#2 Dman and you think you're ready to get a cup. Then, if anyone questions that possibility you react vehemently. As if Koivu/Granlund are the new Dats/Zet/Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Sharp/Kopitar/Richards.....

The roster has a shot if you go full on Lemaire mode, but a "shot" is it..right now. Having cap space doesn't mean what it used to, you made a solid upgrade in Parise/Suter but that doesn't make the team a serious contender, nor does it mean you'll land any other big free agents. Not many left from the Midwest.

You should be happy that you have these guys, but get over it already. The roster still needs to overachieve against quite a few other teams to earn anything. Some fans are realistic and will be happy to make the playoffs...that's more like it.

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07-07-2012, 12:39 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Good, It took Pit Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Letang, Det had everything, Chicago needed Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and L.A. somehow managed to trade for Philly's top line beyond having Quick, Kopitar and Doughty. Comparing yourself to Boston is a long shot since it was a HARD road for them to win.

All of the sudden you Minny fans land a 1st line LW and #1/#2 Dman and you think you're ready to get a cup. Then, if anyone questions that possibility you react vehemently. As if Koivu/Granlund are the new Dats/Zet/Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Sharp/Kopitar/Richards.....

The roster has a shot if you go full on Lemaire mode, but a "shot" is it..right now. Having cap space doesn't mean what it used to, you made a solid upgrade in Parise/Suter but that doesn't make the team a serious contender, nor does it mean you'll land any other big free agents. Not many left from the Midwest.

You should be happy that you have these guys, but get over it already. The roster still needs to overachieve against quite a few other teams to earn anything. Some fans are realistic and will be happy to make the playoffs...that's more like it.
Suter's a number 1......

They bring us closer to our ultimate goal...

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07-07-2012, 12:40 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Good, It took Pit Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Letang, Det had everything, Chicago needed Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and L.A. somehow managed to trade for Philly's top line beyond having Quick, Kopitar and Doughty. Comparing yourself to Boston is a long shot since it was a HARD road for them to win.

All of the sudden you Minny fans land a 1st line LW and #1/#2 Dman and you think you're ready to get a cup. Then, if anyone questions that possibility you react vehemently. As if Koivu/Granlund are the new Dats/Zet/Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Sharp/Kopitar/Richards.....

The roster has a shot if you go full on Lemaire mode, but a "shot" is it..right now. Having cap space doesn't mean what it used to, you made a solid upgrade in Parise/Suter but that doesn't make the team a serious contender, nor does it mean you'll land any other big free agents. Not many left from the Midwest.

You should be happy that you have these guys, but get over it already. The roster still needs to overachieve against quite a few other teams to earn anything. Some fans are realistic and will be happy to make the playoffs...that's more like it.
And in the playoffs, anything can happen. By the way, not one Wild fan has predicted a Stanley Cup next year. Not one.

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07-07-2012, 12:42 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Good, It took Pit Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Letang, Det had everything, Chicago needed Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and L.A. somehow managed to trade for Philly's top line beyond having Quick, Kopitar and Doughty. Comparing yourself to Boston is a long shot since it was a HARD road for them to win.

All of the sudden you Minny fans land a 1st line LW and #1/#2 Dman and you think you're ready to get a cup. Then, if anyone questions that possibility you react vehemently. As if Koivu/Granlund are the new Dats/Zet/Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Sharp/Kopitar/Richards.....

The roster has a shot if you go full on Lemaire mode, but a "shot" is it..right now. Having cap space doesn't mean what it used to, you made a solid upgrade in Parise/Suter but that doesn't make the team a serious contender, nor does it mean you'll land any other big free agents. Not many left from the Midwest.

You should be happy that you have these guys, but get over it already. The roster still needs to overachieve against quite a few other teams to earn anything. Some fans are realistic and will be happy to make the playoffs...that's more like it.
In what world has ANY Minnesota fan said we're gonna win the cup this year? Please re-educate yourself.

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07-07-2012, 12:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by sharski View Post
if the cap is lowered, I assume that at the minimum everyone's cap hit will grandfathered in at the same reduced rate that the cap is lowered by

this is, of course, assuming the NHL execs use common sense
That would require tortured mathematics to even contemplate. Common sense would have no play.

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07-07-2012, 12:54 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveNoCreativity View Post
Suter's a number 1......

They bring us closer to our ultimate goal...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
And in the playoffs, anything can happen. By the way, not one Wild fan has predicted a Stanley Cup next year. Not one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
In what world has ANY Minnesota fan said we're gonna win the cup this year? Please re-educate yourself.

Herein lies the Hubris:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
I'd contend that Granlund, Brodin, Coyle, Dumba and Hackett are "blue-chip talents".
A lot of folks are saying that the core is full of overpaid players, that could be a problem down the road. You're right, Heatley is only on the books for two more years. BUT, a couple overpaid guys are alright when you have the talent to win. If you think ^^^^^ that list is a serious threat beyond other teams prospects, then ok. Agree to disagree.

I just think the logic that over-valuing everything in the organization since Suter/Parise signed to the point where you could seriously contend is flawed logic.

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07-07-2012, 12:59 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Herein lies the Hubris:



A lot of folks are saying that the core is full of overpaid players, that could be a problem down the road. You're right, Heatley is only on the books for two more years. BUT, a couple overpaid guys are alright when you have the talent to win. If you think ^^^^^ that list is a serious threat beyond other teams prospects, then ok. Agree to disagree.

I just think the logic that over-valuing everything in the organization since Suter/Parise signed to the point where you could seriously contend is flawed logic.
I don't know what you're so offended by. You said we didn't have any "blue-chip talents" in the system. I gave you a list of names that not only myself, but many in the hockey community, consider to be "blue-chip talents". I feel we are building a very solid team that will be a playoff contender for years to come. That is all. I apologize for our team not having the #1 and #3 overall picks in back-to-back years, but that isn't the only way to build a championship calibre team.

And it's your opinion that I/we are overvaluing what we have in the organization. It is many others' opinions that I/we are not.

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07-07-2012, 01:05 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Herein lies the Hubris:



A lot of folks are saying that the core is full of overpaid players, that could be a problem down the road. You're right, Heatley is only on the books for two more years. BUT, a couple overpaid guys are alright when you have the talent to win. If you think ^^^^^ that list is a serious threat beyond other teams prospects, then ok. Agree to disagree.

I just think the logic that over-valuing everything in the organization since Suter/Parise signed to the point where you could seriously contend is flawed logic.
Do you honestly believe that there are more than a couple of teams that can match a "line" of
Coyle-Granlund-Zucker/Phillips
Brodin-Dumba
Hackett

as far as prospects go?

No, there are no guarentees when it comes to prospects, but you really cant see why Wild fans might be excited about their future?

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07-07-2012, 01:06 AM
  #35
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Every team in the league would of signed Parise and Suter for 7.5M, they aren't overpaid, now stop.

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07-07-2012, 01:10 AM
  #36
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Except that you need to replace those players and if this week has shown us anything, its that Minnesota has to overpay badly to attract good UFAs.
Actually, all we learned is MN needs to sign players that already live there. You'd think Toronto would be set, except they don't have any players from ON.

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07-07-2012, 01:10 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Good, It took Pit Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Letang, Det had everything, Chicago needed Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and L.A. somehow managed to trade for Philly's top line beyond having Quick, Kopitar and Doughty. Comparing yourself to Boston is a long shot since it was a HARD road for them to win.

All of the sudden you Minny fans land a 1st line LW and #1/#2 Dman and you think you're ready to get a cup. Then, if anyone questions that possibility you react vehemently. As if Koivu/Granlund are the new Dats/Zet/Crosby/Malkin/Toews/Sharp/Kopitar/Richards.....

The roster has a shot if you go full on Lemaire mode, but a "shot" is it..right now. Having cap space doesn't mean what it used to, you made a solid upgrade in Parise/Suter but that doesn't make the team a serious contender, nor does it mean you'll land any other big free agents. Not many left from the Midwest.

You should be happy that you have these guys, but get over it already. The roster still needs to overachieve against quite a few other teams to earn anything. Some fans are realistic and will be happy to make the playoffs...that's more like it.
Koivu/Parise/Heatley/Suter aint a bad start. The goaltending is better than what Pens or Det had! Minnesota have very good 3/4 lines. The only actual problem they have is an inexperienced defence. Give it max 2-3 yrs and they are a contender. If Granlund and some other prospects are having a good season this year, they will be in the mix straight away!
Minnesotas PP and PK has improved greatly with Parise and Sutter. Special teams are what decides games nowadays and Minnesota will be very good on thoose.

Koivu, Parise, Culle, Clutterbuck as forwards and Suter/Gilbert on defense on PK aint bad...

Parise Koivu Heatley on PP aint too shabby either.
Suter Gilbert

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07-07-2012, 01:10 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
I don't know what you're so offended by. You said we didn't have any "blue-chip talents" in the system. I gave you a list of names that not only myself, but many in the hockey community, consider to be "blue-chip talents". I feel we are building a very solid team that will be a playoff contender for years to come. That is all. I apologize for our team not having the #1 and #3 overall picks in back-to-back years, but that isn't the only way to build a championship calibre team.

And it's your opinion that I/we are overvaluing what we have in the organization. It is many others' opinions that I/we are not.
I think you're relying on prospects who make good secondary players when surrounded by excellent players. Great players make secondary players overachieve. I think those top couple picks make an enormous difference for the rest of the team, and if not top picks then players who are elite and in their prime.

Good, and top shelf are two different things. Most people in the "hockey world" will agree on how long it takes a lot of that talent to hit it's prime too, by then, the picks who aren't top 3 won't have the benefit of Parise/Suter in their prime. That's why I think the team has a shot only if it goes completely Lemaire. When Heatley, a legitimate first liner, totals 34 even strengthers in 82 games with prime minutes, something needs to be worked on.

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07-07-2012, 01:11 AM
  #39
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Every team in the league would of signed Parise and Suter for 7.5M, they aren't overpaid, now stop.
Agreed. Most would have agreed to 7.5, many may have said no to 13 years for both.

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07-07-2012, 01:13 AM
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Suter's a number 1......

They bring us closer to our ultimate goal...
We will certainly find out this year just how good Suter/Weber are playing on their own.

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07-07-2012, 01:14 AM
  #41
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Agreed. Most would have agreed to 7.5, many may have said no to 13 years for both.
I doubt it, you don't get both a 7.5 M without circumventing the cap.

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07-07-2012, 01:19 AM
  #42
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I doubt it, you don't get both a 7.5 M without circumventing the cap.
Whicjh is why I said many would have liked the hit but declined on the term for TWO players. Not sure what you doubt, but ok.

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07-07-2012, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Agreed. Most would have agreed to 7.5, many may have said no to 13 years for both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveNoCreativity View Post
I doubt it, you don't get both a 7.5 M without circumventing the cap.
I don't know, from everything I've read a few teams were in on that hit for one but not the other, and they wanted to play together back home. Perfect storm for Minny. Apparently Detroit offered Suter as much but not Parise, Vice Versa for the Hawks/Pens. Philly is rumored to have matched on both, that's it as far as I can tell, 15 mil is a lot on two players when a CBA is coming up.

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07-07-2012, 01:23 AM
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Whicjh is why I said many would have liked the hit but declined on the term for TWO players. Not sure what you doubt, but ok.
Teams would have taken the term.. The last 3 years are bogus.

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07-07-2012, 01:23 AM
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Do you honestly believe that there are more than a couple of teams that can match a "line" of
Coyle-Granlund-Zucker/Phillips
Brodin-Dumba
Hackett

as far as prospects go?

No, there are no guarentees when it comes to prospects, but you really cant see why Wild fans might be excited about their future?
I think most teams feel that way about their guys. Doesn't mean much.

Hawks have

Saad/Morin, McNeill/Pirri, Hayes
Olsen, Clendening
empty space, shhhh, silence. (maybe Hutton?)

They might all be nothing in the NHL, it's only hope at this point.

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07-07-2012, 01:24 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
Herein lies the Hubris:



A lot of folks are saying that the core is full of overpaid players, that could be a problem down the road. You're right, Heatley is only on the books for two more years. BUT, a couple overpaid guys are alright when you have the talent to win. If you think ^^^^^ that list is a serious threat beyond other teams prospects, then ok. Agree to disagree.

I just think the logic that over-valuing everything in the organization since Suter/Parise signed to the point where you could seriously contend is flawed logic.
You make no sense, herein lies the hubris? Hubris means "means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power."

Wild fans and fans of other teams are recognizing that their prospects actually are blue chip. Tell me again how that is hubris?

Charlie Coyle
Quote:
NHL Central Scouting's Gary Eggleston
"Charlie is a skilled forward, who can play a power game as well as a finesse game. He has very good size and athleticism. He has very soft hands and is a confident puck handler. His passes are accurate and proper for the situation. He has a long and strong stride and beats defenders with his acceleration and puck skills. He has a very good wrist shot to support his passing skills in his role as a major contributor to his team's offense. He should, however, shoot the puck more than he does to take advantage of his excellent shot."
Mikael Granlund
Quote:
Dubbed a Saku Koivu clone, that is high praise in itself coming from Finnish hockey fans, Granlund has plenty of offensive skill. One of the most creative players in the 2010 draft, Granlund thinks the game at a very high level with top notch hockey sense. A crafty playmaker and elite stickhandler, Granlund makes those around him better.

While he lacks top end speed, Granlund is very quick and agile and strong on his skates. Like any prospect in his situation, lack of size is always a concern for NHL scouts. Granlund will have to continue to get stronger and try and put muscle on to handle other players at the NHL level. He does, however, play a competitive style of game and battles hard in all areas.
Matt Dumba
Quote:
Dumba came into the season with high expectations and he certainly lived up to them, tallying a very impressive 20 goals to go along with his 57 points in only 66 games – more than doubling his offensive production from his rookie season. Dumba is a player who makes plays that impact the game, generally positively, albeit sometimes negatively. Puck rushing, hard shot, offensive, and dynamic are all adjectives that could be used to describe his style. Despite being a bit undersized, Dumba also has no fear to throw bone-rattling hits and generally is willing to initiate contact at any time.

Pros: Great skater, hard shot, excellent vision, physical player, physical specimen, leadership quality.

Cons: Hockey IQ is a bit low, needs better positioning in defensive zone.

Skillset Comparison: P.K. Subban
Jonas Brodin
Quote:
Jonas Brodin is another solid prospect from the hockey factory that is Färjestads BK, Sweden's champion this past season. Steady, and intelligent is the name of the game for 17-year old who played 42 games this year against men on Sweden's best team. What he is not is the type of dynamic, end-to-end rushing defenseman who will blow past you and score 15 goals in the NHL. What he is is a safe, reliable player with superb lateral mobility and a professional level of puck composure. At 6-foot-1 and 165 pounds he has a lot of filling out to do, but for a team picking between 20 and 30 looking for the safe type of defenseman that you don't notice when he's on the ice, Brodin is a good pick. He will never be an NHL All-Star, but he could be one of those soldiers that you put out there to win a cup.
SO again, tell me how the Wild's prospects are overrated/too much hubris? In fact, your assessment is terribly flawed (which is an understatement)...first off saying that people are overrating the organization's assets because of Suter and Parise's choice to come there? How can that even happen when Chuck Fletcher had these prospects prior to Suter and Parise's arrival...? Did it occur during your thought process that it was the case?

Lastly, to say "I just think the logic that over-valuing everything in the organization since Suter/Parise signed to the point where you could seriously contend is flawed logic." is laughable when you yourself are ignorant of the Wild's bright spots. I'll conclude by saying this, I also think that the logic of ignoring the positives within the Wild organization since Parise and Suter signed to the point where you slander the fanbase for actually being excited about their future is preposterous...and your lack of evidence and strong words against the Wild's fanbase shows your jealousy. We're only discussing on impartial terms, there's no need to be jealous about a fanbase.

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07-07-2012, 01:28 AM
  #47
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While it is possible that the NHLPA may ultimately accept a lower Players Share, it is very unlikely that they would accept any form of across the board salary rollback.

If the Players Share was reduced from 57% to 51-52%, the Cap would remain about where it was last season, no across-the-board rollbacks would be needed, and those teams above ~$65M (a significant minority) could be dealt with with some form of Compliance Buyout (which the NHLPA would likely agree with, since the Players would end up with add'l buy-out money above and beyond the cap).

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07-07-2012, 01:29 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by IHaveNoCreativity View Post
Teams would have taken the term.. The last 3 years are bogus.
I am not sold on Parise on a retirement contract, he is a season removed from major surgery. He wasn't the same player this year as he was pre injury and still isn't a a guy I'd want to to pin my playoff hopes to. The American Markus Naslund.

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07-07-2012, 01:29 AM
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You make no sense, herein lies the hubris? Hubris means "means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power."

Wild fans and fans of other teams are recognizing that their prospects actually are blue chip. Tell me again how that is hubris?

Charlie Coyle


Mikael Granlund


Matt Dumba


Jonas Brodin


SO again, tell me how the Wild's prospects are overrated/too much hubris? In fact, your assessment is terribly flawed (which is an understatement)...first off saying that people are overrating the organization's assets because of Suter and Parise's choice to come there? How can that even happen when Chuck Fletcher had these prospects prior to Suter and Parise's arrival...? Did it occur during your thought process that it was the case?

Lastly, to say "I just think the logic that over-valuing everything in the organization since Suter/Parise signed to the point where you could seriously contend is flawed logic." is laughable when you yourself are ignorant of the Wild's bright spots. I'll conclude by saying this, I also think that the logic of ignoring the positives within the Wild organization since Parise and Suter signed to the point where you slander the fanbase for actually being excited about their future is preposterous...and your lack of evidence and strong words against the Wild's fanbase shows your jealousy. We're only discussing on impartial terms, there's no need to be jealous about a fanbase.
You, obviously, take scouting reports very seriously. If you dig up scouting reports for the top 30 in the last many draft, you will find much of the same rhetoric.

Show me a negative scouting report for any 1st/2nd round pick, we all feel this way about our players. If you think I'm jealous, get lost. I'm incredibly happy for Minny and no franchise (outside of maybe Toronto) deserves Parise/Suter more than they do. I haven't been advocating anything less at any point. I'm a pessimist yet realistic at the same time. ****ing scouting reports, get over yourself.

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07-07-2012, 01:29 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
I think most teams feel that way about their guys. Doesn't mean much.

Hawks have

Saad/Morin, McNeill/Pirri, Hayes
Olsen, Clendening
empty space, shhhh, silence. (maybe Hutton?)

They might all be nothing in the NHL, it's only hope at this point.
If you actually think that those 2 "pools" are even close to the same level, then I dont know what else to say.

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