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[WSH/PIT] Mike Green wielding his RFA leverage

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Old
07-07-2012, 11:08 AM
  #51
SomeDude
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This proposal is gonna give me nightmares.

Green wouldn't like it here anyways, not a lot of scooter parking in the city.

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Old
07-07-2012, 11:10 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunsnRosesPenguins91 View Post
After reading this, I assume you have never actually seen Letang play. Its not about reading, its about watching. Actually watching him play. Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you assume.
Stop populatin', Pens lover.

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07-07-2012, 11:16 AM
  #53
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If the absurdly leading premise were taken for granted, then the Caps would:

1) Refuse to trade him;
2) Match the offer; or failing that,
3) Take the four first-round picks.

The Caps and Penguins do not make significant trades. If Green tried to force it, the limits of his restricted free agency would very quickly become apparent.

In the real world, there is no reason to think he isn't going to sign with the Capitals.

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07-07-2012, 11:20 AM
  #54
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Why the **** would we do this?

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Old
07-07-2012, 11:23 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Blank View Post
Extremely hard for the Caps to get fair value for Green after the injury plagued seasons he's had..

I would actually argue that Dupuis is the best player in this trade... A 20g versatile grinder that fits well into the Pens lineup with a minimal cap hit.
Er, let's not completely lose our sense of perspective here.....

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07-07-2012, 11:23 AM
  #56
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Do Pens fans think that deal is fair value if say, they were to trade Letang? Because that's what the Caps would want for him.

He put up the 2 best offensive seasons for a Defensemen in what, 15 years?

But you Pens fans point to the last 2 years. The fact is, he barely played half the season in one year, and only 30 last year. About 80 games the last 2 years combined. Couple that with a system change in 2011, then a coaching change and a system change in 2012, and you can see things were not too easy on him. Then factor in that all of the Caps players had horrible years offensively (no its not the players, it's the style they were forced to play) and its no wonder he struggled when he wasn't hurt.

If you guys really want to know how bad it was, then I'm sure any Caps fan can tell you that the first time Green joined the rush last year under Hunter was his goal against Boston in game 6. He was then benched for parts of the rest of the game for that.

^That is why Caps fans like to value the Green of the previous 3 years (best offensive Dman in the league), not the one of the last 2 years.

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07-07-2012, 11:28 AM
  #57
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Don't like it. Mike Green has been invisible offensively the last two years.

I'm not giving up our best prospect, two high picks and an underrated, cheap winger for him right now.

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07-07-2012, 11:44 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Do Pens fans think that deal is fair value if say, they were to trade Letang? Because that's what the Caps would want for him.

He put up the 2 best offensive seasons for a Defensemen in what, 15 years?

But you Pens fans point to the last 2 years. The fact is, he barely played half the season in one year, and only 30 last year. About 80 games the last 2 years combined. Couple that with a system change in 2011, then a coaching change and a system change in 2012, and you can see things were not too easy on him. Then factor in that all of the Caps players had horrible years offensively (no its not the players, it's the style they were forced to play) and its no wonder he struggled when he wasn't hurt.

If you guys really want to know how bad it was, then I'm sure any Caps fan can tell you that the first time Green joined the rush last year under Hunter was his goal against Boston in game 6. He was then benched for parts of the rest of the game for that.

^That is why Caps fans like to value the Green of the previous 3 years (best offensive Dman in the league), not the one of the last 2 years.
As the Caps fans keep pointing to Letang's last six games only. It's a stupid vicious cycle.

How did we even get into this pointless excursion on who is better, Letang or Green? It doesn't even matter, the Pens do not need another offensive Dman and if they did need one, they probably wouldn't get one for a fair price from the Caps.

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07-07-2012, 12:19 PM
  #59
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Even if a deal that would benefit both sides could be put together, this trade isn't happening. The Caps and Pens management HATE each other. Pens refused to speak with the Caps about Staal. I just can't imagine discussions even starting. If they do, the bad blood will keep it from going anywhere productive.

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07-07-2012, 12:23 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laika86 View Post
Even if a deal that would benefit both sides could be put together, this trade isn't happening. The Caps and Pens management HATE each other. Pens refused to speak with the Caps about Staal. I just can't imagine discussions even starting. If they do, the bad blood will keep it from going anywhere productive.
You make it sound personal, and it's not. They simply won't trade because they're rivals.

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07-07-2012, 12:23 PM
  #61
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Also players like Green don't get traded because the Caps know better than anyone what his chances of returning to form are (and other teams know this). Teams will be very reluctant to pull off a trade where they know they're coming from a weak position in terms of information.

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07-07-2012, 12:48 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenAF View Post
Maybe so, but he sure didn't look good defensively during the playoffs. Letang's pairing allowed 11 goals in 6 games at 5on5 -- only Orpik was worse, statistically. That may have had something to do with the matchups, but nevertheless, he performed nothing like a shutdown defenseman.

By comparison, Green's pairing allowed 6 goals in 14 games at 5on5 with a rookie goalie.
Holtby wasn't doing this

http://deadspin.com/5902399/scenes-f...rs-this-series


I count one goal out of these 17 that Letang could be argued to have made a mistake on.

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Old
07-07-2012, 01:29 PM
  #63
TorstenFrings
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Originally Posted by laika86 View Post
Even if a deal that would benefit both sides could be put together, this trade isn't happening. The Caps and Pens management HATE each other. Pens refused to speak with the Caps about Staal. I just can't imagine discussions even starting. If they do, the bad blood will keep it from going anywhere productive.
Source? How sure are we this wasn't long before the draft, when Staal was still completely off limits, or at the draft, when talks with Carolina where already very advanced though? It just doesn't seem like something any GM would do, exclude an additional suitor who could provide just as much leverage as Toronto (even if maybe less than NYR). Ultimately decide to deal him to CAR over WSH, sure, but outright refusing to talk? Really?

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07-07-2012, 01:36 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Source? How sure are we this wasn't long before the draft, when Staal was still completely off limits, or at the draft, when talks with Carolina where already very advanced though? It just doesn't seem like something any GM would do, exclude an additional suitor who could provide just as much leverage as Toronto (even if maybe less than NYR). Ultimately decide to deal him to CAR over WSH, sure, but outright refusing to talk? Really?
Thought George McPhee said he called Shero on draft day and was told Staal was unavailable, which would have been false. He sounded somewhat mad about it too.

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07-07-2012, 01:42 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
*Restricted* free agent. So yes, Washington does have a choice.
WSH has "no choice" in the sense that they have no control over who Mike Green speaks to at this point. Green is unrestricted with regard to negotiating with whichever team he chooses to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
OK this makes little sense. Green is an RFA who recently turned down arbitration...
By accepting his right to 3rd party arbitration, Green would have given up his right to speak with other teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
...and in all likelyhood is working on a nice extension with McPhee.
Is just as likely that his agent has been contacted by DET, PIT, NYR, and/or PHI, who are all in need of blueline upgrades (or additions that make other deals possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
IF Green wanted to be a UFA after this year why not take the arbitration and 1 year deal and then become a UFA after this year so he can CHOOSE his destination?
Green already has the right to choose his own destination. All he has to do is find a team that would be willing to give him a deal that WSH has been unwilling to give him thus far (a lockout anticipating, front loaded deal for example).

And if WSH played hardball by not trading Green's rights, then Green could play his own version of hardball by refusing to play for WSH.

And even if Green eventually relented and accepted a one year deal with WSH, at least he gave his agent the opportunity to determine precisely what his contract value would be on the open market when eligible. That would be valuable information during negotiations with WSH during the eventual negotiations on an extension after Jan 1.

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Old
07-07-2012, 01:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Thought George McPhee said he called Shero on draft day and was told Staal was unavailable, which would have been false. He sounded somewhat mad about it too.
Ok, I googled it and found that interview on youtube. It still seems really strange to me (simply from a tactics standpoint, not because I'm arguing that Shero would have been willing to trade an impact player to WSH), but I now concur that McPhee said it.

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07-07-2012, 01:59 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laika86 View Post
Even if a deal that would benefit both sides could be put together, this trade isn't happening. The Caps and Pens management HATE each other. Pens refused to speak with the Caps about Staal. I just can't imagine discussions even starting. If they do, the bad blood will keep it from going anywhere productive.

That HATE is all the more reason to prey on a rival team. In this case, Mike Green could very well be low hanging RFA fruit.



His injury problems the last couple years will make WSH gun shy on a big extension. Whereas Green will feel as though his past performance is plenty evidence to be paid like a boss.

Green's actions (declining his qualifying offer and refusing arbitration) IMO indicate he doesn't want a one year deal to prove himself, something that I'm sure McPhee would much prefer before offering multiple years at boss-type dollars.

Plus, Green would most likely want to get a big deal done this offseason, before the new CBA comes into effect.


Last edited by JawandaPuck: 07-07-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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Old
07-07-2012, 02:30 PM
  #68
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Penguins say absolutely not. Mike Green from a couple years ago, maybe. But not now.

Dupuis was a rock for us last season and provides tremendous value for his cap hit. Despres is our future Top 4 guy and is huge. Those picks...unnecessary TBH.

Penguins want no part of that deal. Our guys are worth more to us and Green is worth more to Washington. This isn't about who is better...it's about value. Value mismatch.

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07-07-2012, 02:50 PM
  #69
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Penguins say absolutely not. Mike Green from a couple years ago, maybe. But not now.

Dupuis was a rock for us last season and provides tremendous value for his cap hit. Despres is our future Top 4 guy and is huge. Those picks...unnecessary TBH.

Penguins want no part of that deal. Our guys are worth more to us and Green is worth more to Washington. This isn't about who is better...it's about value. Value mismatch.
With Michalek now gone, Mike Green inserted into the top four is worth quite a bit to PIT IMO. Playoff bluleline TOI...

RankPlayerTeamGPES TOI/GPP TOI/GTOI/G
1Kris LetangPIT616:185:3923:00
2Brooks OrpikPIT618:120:1222:16
3Paul MartinPIT317:571:4022:07
4Zbynek MichalekPIT616:290:1221:08
5Matt NiskanenPIT414:593:1118:31
6Deryk EngellandPIT610:280:0011:29
7Ben LovejoyPIT210:320:0010:32
8Brian StraitPIT39:210:009:35
9Simon DespresPIT38:081:099:18

PlayerTeamGPES TOI/GPP TOI/GTOI/G
Mike "The Boss" GreenWSH1419:572:1923:45

Jettisoning Michalek and drafting two d-men in the last draft with both first rounders, suggests to me PIT may be planning to use its blueline prospects as currency to get a brand new top four d-man. One that can do the things that Michalek was unable to do, move the puck and keep up with the offensive attack.

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07-07-2012, 02:53 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Do Pens fans think that deal is fair value if say, they were to trade Letang? Because that's what the Caps would want for him.

He put up the 2 best offensive seasons for a Defensemen in what, 15 years?

But you Pens fans point to the last 2 years. The fact is, he barely played half the season in one year, and only 30 last year. About 80 games the last 2 years combined. Couple that with a system change in 2011, then a coaching change and a system change in 2012, and you can see things were not too easy on him. Then factor in that all of the Caps players had horrible years offensively (no its not the players, it's the style they were forced to play) and its no wonder he struggled when he wasn't hurt.

If you guys really want to know how bad it was, then I'm sure any Caps fan can tell you that the first time Green joined the rush last year under Hunter was his goal against Boston in game 6. He was then benched for parts of the rest of the game for that.

^That is why Caps fans like to value the Green of the previous 3 years (best offensive Dman in the league), not the one of the last 2 years.
Great post.

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Old
07-07-2012, 03:00 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
With Michalek now gone, Mike Green inserted into the top four is worth quite a bit to PIT IMO. Playoff bluleline TOI...

RankPlayerTeamGPES TOI/GPP TOI/GTOI/G
1Kris LetangPIT616:185:3923:00
2Brooks OrpikPIT618:120:1222:16
3Paul MartinPIT317:571:4022:07
4Zbynek MichalekPIT616:290:1221:08
5Matt NiskanenPIT414:593:1118:31
6Deryk EngellandPIT610:280:0011:29
7Ben LovejoyPIT210:320:0010:32
8Brian StraitPIT39:210:009:35
9Simon DespresPIT38:081:099:18

PlayerTeamGPES TOI/GPP TOI/GTOI/G
Mike "The Boss" GreenWSH1419:572:1923:45

Jettisoning Michalek and drafting two d-men in the last draft with both first rounders, suggests to me PIT may be planning to use its blueline prospects as currency to get a brand new top four d-man. One that can do the things that Michalek was unable to do, move the puck and keep up with the offensive attack.
Or maybe they are planning to actually play some of their D prospects next year. Crazy out there, I know.

The one thing I am prone to worry about some is missing Michalek on the PK. Not exactly Green's finest discipline. So, really, I kinda see where you are coming from, just think you would have a hard time finding an even worse matched to the Pens' needs D than Green.

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07-07-2012, 03:15 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Or maybe they are planning to actually play some of their D prospects next year. Crazy out there, I know.

The one thing I am prone to worry about some is missing Michalek on the PK. Not exactly Green's finest discipline. So, really, I kinda see where you are coming from, just think you would have a hard time finding an even worse matched to the Pens' needs D than Green.
Shero's MO doesn't portend leaving things up to chance (prospects). He's quite decisive about shoring up areas of weakness. Trading for and signing Vokoun is a recent example. And aggressively pursuing Parise and Suter (despite the odds) is another indicator of changes yet to come.

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07-07-2012, 03:23 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
Shero's MO doesn't portend leaving things up to chance (prospects). He's quite decisive about shoring up areas of weakness. Trading for and signing Vokoun is a recent example. And aggressively pursuing Parise and Suter (despite the odds) is another indicator of changes yet to come.
Pens do not have a single goalie prospect even a fraction as good or ready as Despres though, for example, so that is not the same situation at all. Also, are you linking me to your own blog as a source for your own claim?

You also did not engage at all with my second gribe of Mike Green not bringing much of what was lost with Michalek at all. Why is it so much more like Shero to pay another 7m for one more proven offensive Dman than letting Despres break into the top6 and move Niskanen up? There is a lot of money which can go into Sid's permanent winger to be freed up by developing your own top4 D.

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07-07-2012, 03:35 PM
  #74
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Would you guys take Orpik for Orlov, Laich, a 1st and a 2nd?
Worst proposal of the day.

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07-07-2012, 03:50 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
Jettisoning Michalek and drafting two d-men in the last draft with both first rounders, suggests to me PIT may be planning to use its blueline prospects as currency to get a brand new top four d-man. One that can do the things that Michalek was unable to do, move the puck and keep up with the offensive attack.
I repeat:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
So, last year the Pens give up the most amount of goals in any 6 game playoff series, ever, and your solution is for them to acquire Mike Green?

Brilliant.
The Pens may well add a top 4 defenseman. If they do, it won't be one with Mike Green's strengths.

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