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[WSH/PIT] Mike Green wielding his RFA leverage

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Old
07-07-2012, 03:54 PM
  #76
DoctrSteveBrule
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A) Mike Green is not the type of top 4 D-man we need. If we're getting one, it has to be a shutdown type not a winger who plays at the blueline.

B) This trade doesn't benefit either team in the least.

C) The pens won't tradr Duper. You aren't going to find a 50 point winger for 1.5 mil so his marginal value is through the roof for the pens. He's worth way way way more to the pens than he could fetch in a trade.


What a dumb proposal.

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07-07-2012, 03:56 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laika86 View Post
Even if a deal that would benefit both sides could be put together, this trade isn't happening. The Caps and Pens management HATE each other. Pens refused to speak with the Caps about Staal. I just can't imagine discussions even starting. If they do, the bad blood will keep it from going anywhere productive.
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Thought George McPhee said he called Shero on draft day and was told Staal was unavailable, which would have been false. He sounded somewhat mad about it too.
Had nothing to do with the Capitals.

Ray Shero has said numerous times that he planned on moving forward with Staal next season. He didn't decide until draft day (maybe the night before) that he was going to trade Staal. 2 days before the draft, the Pens offered Staal a long term deal and Staal declined. His agent said he wasn't going to negotiate a contract now, but would negotiate with Carolina if a trade was made.

Shero wanted to keep Staal, but Rutherford called and told Shero to let him know if he changed his mind. Then when Rutherford got to Pittsburgh for the draft, Shero said he would trade Staal to Carolina only if it was a hockey deal and Rutherford agreed.

So in a sense, Shero wasn't lying because Staal really wasn't available. He wanted to go play with his brother in Carolina and most likely would have signed there in 2013. That was the team he wanted to go to, to play with his brother and Shero understood and respected that so he traded him to where he wanted to go.

Pens also got a nice return for him, Sutter, 8th overall and Brian Dumoulin. What would the Caps have given us that's better than that package. Plus with Staal wanting to go to Carolina, would he have even signed with the Capitals?

Nothing to do with the Pens and Caps rivalry, Jordan Staal was unavailable until draft day and was traded to his brother's team where he expressed interest in playing.

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07-07-2012, 03:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by drunksuperhero View Post


some good comedy ITT. letang is awful defensively. just because HF populates that he's good defensively during a fluke stretch run of racking up secondary assists, don't believe everything you read.

the flyers clowned letang like he belonged in the AHL.
can you provide a breakdown of letang's primary vs secondary assists, and compare it to other top tier defensemen? i just think you're full of poop. and also, how does one "rack up secondary assists"?

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07-07-2012, 04:00 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by drunksuperhero View Post


some good comedy ITT. letang is awful defensively. just because HF populates that he's good defensively during a fluke stretch run of racking up secondary assists, don't believe everything you read.

the flyers clowned letang like he belonged in the AHL.
Letang isn't awful defensively.

Why don't you post something when you actually know what you're talking about.


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07-07-2012, 04:04 PM
  #80
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I love that the 6 game Philly series is being taken as gospel. Giroux is the best player in the world, Staal was the best player on the Pens and the Flyers were the best team in the NHL last year. That's what that series taught us. All those things proved to be true right?

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07-07-2012, 04:12 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Had nothing to do with the Capitals.

Ray Shero has said numerous times that he planned on moving forward with Staal next season. He didn't decide until draft day (maybe the night before) that he was going to trade Staal. 2 days before the draft, the Pens offered Staal a long term deal and Staal declined. His agent said he wasn't going to negotiate a contract now, but would negotiate with Carolina if a trade was made.

Shero wanted to keep Staal, but Rutherford called and told Shero to let him know if he changed his mind. Then when Rutherford got to Pittsburgh for the draft, Shero said he would trade Staal to Carolina only if it was a hockey deal and Rutherford agreed.

So in a sense, Shero wasn't lying because Staal really wasn't available. He wanted to go play with his brother in Carolina and most likely would have signed there in 2013. That was the team he wanted to go to, to play with his brother and Shero understood and respected that so he traded him to where he wanted to go.

Pens also got a nice return for him, Sutter, 8th overall and Brian Dumoulin. What would the Caps have given us that's better than that package. Plus with Staal wanting to go to Carolina, would he have even signed with the Capitals?

Nothing to do with the Pens and Caps rivalry, Jordan Staal was unavailable until draft day and was traded to his brother's team where he expressed interest in playing.
I don't know why you're so worked up about this, but you're giving an explanation that conflicts with what George McPhee said Shero told him, which was "there's not much going on," at a time Shero was sorting out possible deals with both Sather and Rutherford.

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07-07-2012, 04:14 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
I don't know why you're so worked up about this, but you're giving an explanation that conflicts with what George McPhee said Shero told him, which was "there's not much going on," at a time Shero was sorting out possible deals with both Sather and Rutherford.
If he said "Staal is not available" to McPhee and meant "Staal is not available to YOU," is that really a problem?

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07-07-2012, 04:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by vaseline stampede View Post
Worst proposal of the day.
Missed the first page, did you?

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07-07-2012, 04:16 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
I don't know why you're so worked up about this, but you're giving an explanation that conflicts with what George McPhee said Shero told him, which was "there's not much going on," at a time Shero was sorting out possible deals with both Sather and Rutherford.
Not worked up about it, just saying that the Pens didn't refuse to trade with the Caps because they're a rival. To my understanding, the only possible deal Shero had from a GM was Rutherford. Toronto inquired about Staal and Shero told him the same thing he told McPhee and I don't think Shero was going to trade him to the Rangers, either. Carolina was the only other team for Jordan if it wasn't Pittsburgh.

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07-07-2012, 04:18 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by drunksuperhero View Post
of course it is. the same fans who've handed their team the cup in august the last 2 years and seen them bounce in the first round.
Ridiculous hyperbole aside, pens fans thinking they're a favorite the past few years is an infinitely more reasonable opinion than Letang is horrible defensively, or that he's somehow at fault for the breakdown in last seasons playoffs, or that a 6 game sample is enough to judge him. Try actually watching the game sometime. It's fantastic.

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07-07-2012, 04:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
Ridiculous hyperbole aside, pens fans thinking they're a favorite the past few years is an infinitely more reasonable opinion than Letang is horrible defensively, or that he's somehow at fault for the breakdown in last seasons playoffs, or that a 6 game sample is enough to judge him. Try actually watching the game sometime. It's fantastic.
Hey Pens1566, I don't know of many Pens fans that think the Pens are automatic champions before the season starts. Do you know any? I don't.

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07-07-2012, 04:36 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Not worked up about it, just saying that the Pens didn't refuse to trade with the Caps because they're a rival. To my understanding, the only possible deal Shero had from a GM was Rutherford. Toronto inquired about Staal and Shero told him the same thing he told McPhee and I don't think Shero was going to trade him to the Rangers, either. Carolina was the only other team for Jordan if it wasn't Pittsburgh.
That's not correct. Staal was shopped to both Sather and Burke, who have both commented on record that there were negotiations. McPhee's the only guy out there saying he was told Staal was unavailable during the time he was available.

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07-07-2012, 04:38 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
If he said "Staal is not available" to McPhee and meant "Staal is not available to YOU," is that really a problem?
Not in my book. I'm sure there are GMs out there who'd rather chop a hand off than make a trade with a perceived rival, which is I line of thinking I'm indifferent to.

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07-07-2012, 04:41 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Hey Pens1566, I don't know of many Pens fans that think the Pens are automatic champions before the season starts. Do you know any? I don't.
Yep Pens fans weren't declaring themselves favorites going into the postseason this year, just like they weren't already slotting Suter and/or Parise onto their roster after the draft...

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07-07-2012, 04:47 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Pens do not have a single goalie prospect even a fraction as good or ready as Despres though, for example, so that is not the same situation at all.
So he goes out and gets a 1B to play backup, but that somehow is not relevant to my position that Shero will not risk leaving it to a rookie to fill a top four spot on a contending team?

Quote:
Also, are you linking me to your own blog as a source for your own claim?
My position is that Shero aggressively pursues players even when others may shy away. The blog post demonstrates how the playing field was not level with regard to the pursuit of Parise & Suter.

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You also did not engage at all with my second gribe of Mike Green not bringing much of what was lost with Michalek at all. Why is it so much more like Shero to pay another 7m for one more proven offensive Dman than letting Despres break into the top6 and move Niskanen up? There is a lot of money which can go into Sid's permanent winger to be freed up by developing your own top4 D.
See above (Shero's MO) and below (Shero's multiple plans).

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The Pens may well add a top 4 defenseman. If they do, it won't be one with Mike Green's strengths.
I'm sure Shero has plans to pursue RFA Shea Weber with a similar strategy, who I'm sure would be the ideal candidate. However, the playing field is likely tilted against PIT in that pursuit as well. Mike Green is a logical secondary pursuit, despite his d-zone reputation.

Plus, if Shero thought the end all be all answer was a well respected defensive d-man (the Anti-Mike Green), I kind of doubt Michalek would have been traded.

Mike Green is a better fit in PIT than both Michalek and Martin IMO. And by playing in a more structured offence with somewhat reduced minutes, his d-zone reputation would surely improve, I contend.

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07-07-2012, 05:05 PM
  #91
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Overpayment from Pittsburgh.

We say no and leave.

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07-07-2012, 05:06 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
So he goes out and gets a 1B to play backup, but that somehow is not relevant to my position that Shero will not risk leaving it to a rookie to fill a top four spot on a contending team?
I already told you there is no rookie to fill the backup goalie spot in the Pens system. Vokoun was the best available FA by far. Are you telling me Shero should have shelled out a kings ransom for Bernier to back up an already young starting goalie simply to disprove some random blogger's point about him never playing rookies? Even though some of the best players on this team had there rookie seasons in PIT under him?

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I'm sure Shero has plans to pursue RFA Shea Weber with a similar strategy, who I'm sure would be the ideal candidate. However, the playing field is likely tilted against PIT in that pursuit as well. Mike Green is a logical secondary pursuit, despite his d-zone reputation.
Weber is the best D in the game (stupid Norris voters not withstanding), if he becomes UFA and you have the cap space and money to go after him, you do. Despite the fact that Weber is also a much more fitting D partner for Letang, potentially being willing to go after Weber has zilch to do with needing Mike Green. I bet you, despite Keith and Seabrook both locked up, Chicago would be in on Weber like they were in on Suter. Do they depserately need Mike Green too?

Quote:
Plus, if Shero thought the end all be all answer was a well respected defensive d-man (the Anti-Mike Green), I kind of doubt Michalek would have been traded.
Michalek was traded to make room for the upcoming prospects of which there are many for whom now is make or break time in the NHL.

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Mike Green is a better fit in PIT than both Michalek and Martin IMO.
This is the part I simply completely disagree about. Probably the root of all our disagreement, but that does not strike me as even remotely true.

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And by playing in a more structured offence with somewhat reduced minutes, his d-zone reputation would surely improve, I contend.
And by playing a more sturctured defense Letang, Orpik and Martin would be tremendously helped without bringing on more defensive liabilities. We may try that for now.

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07-07-2012, 05:31 PM
  #93
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We need a defenseman that stays in his own end, not one that plays D/RW

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07-07-2012, 06:01 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Yep Pens fans weren't declaring themselves favorites going into the postseason this year, just like they weren't already slotting Suter and/or Parise onto their roster after the draft...
You might want to go and check who was listing the pens as favorites going into the postseason or who was saying Parise was likely to land in Pittsburgh before you disparage just the fans. Also, I don't know many of us that Suter was anything more than a pipedream.

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07-07-2012, 06:03 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Yep Pens fans weren't declaring themselves favorites going into the postseason this year, just like they weren't already slotting Suter and/or Parise onto their roster after the draft...
You can't paint the whole fan base with one brush.

Every fan base has people who do that stuff, but most Pens fans actually know that the team isn't a lock to win it every year, the people who do say that aren't even Pens fans.

Some Pens fans were slotting Parise and Suter in the lineup, sure. But so were some Wings fans, Wild fans, every team's fans whose team was involved in the Parise/Suter sweepstakes.

I don't know any Pens fan on HFBoards or around Pittsburgh that say "just give us the cup", nobody does that.

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07-07-2012, 06:05 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
<snip>

1. Weber is the best D in the game (stupid Norris voters not withstanding), if he becomes UFA...
2. Michalek was traded to make room for the upcoming prospects...
1. Weber is not going to make it to UFA, IMO. He either signs longterm with NSH or forces a trade to his desired destination (likely the latter).
2. Lets make it a point to check back in on this comment in Oct.

Thanks for the debate.

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07-07-2012, 06:06 PM
  #97
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Green has turned into a very responsible D-man and probably to the detriment of his offensive game. Anyone calling him a wing playing defense hasn't watched him in the past 2 years. Regardless I don't see any posturing going on. By all accounts, he's happy being in Washington and will probably sign a nice extension. Silly premise for a thread.

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07-07-2012, 06:09 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
You might want to go and check who was listing the pens as favorites going into the postseason or who was saying Parise was likely to land in Pittsburgh before you disparage just the fans. Also, I don't know many of us that Suter was anything more than a pipedream.
I seem to remember Pens fans being mighty cocky going into the postseason. Even reading the Pittsburgh board after the Philly series, many posters were saying that if they hadn't faced Philly in the 1st round, they would've gone through the East to the SCF, which seemed pretty far fetched considering they gave up 30g in 6 games...

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07-07-2012, 06:09 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
1. Weber is not going to make it to UFA, IMO. He either signs longterm with NSH or forces a trade to his desired destination (likely the latter).
2. Lets make it a point to check back in on this comment in Oct.

Thanks for the debate.
1. Then make it becomes available instead of makes it to UFA instead. Regardless nothing you just said has anything to do with needing Green.
2. Yes, lets.

Happy to oblige.

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07-07-2012, 06:19 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
I seem to remember Pens fans being mighty cocky going into the postseason. Even reading the Pittsburgh board after the Philly series, many posters were saying that if they hadn't faced Philly in the 1st round, they would've gone through the East to the SCF, which seemed pretty far fetched considering they gave up 30g in 6 games...
A++ backpedal.

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