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[OTT/CBJ] Nick Foligno for Marc Methot Part II

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Old
07-07-2012, 08:34 PM
  #26
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it was painfully obvious that Foligno was going to be traded sooner rather than later. we've got a number of prospects coming that will easily replace foligno (i.e., Stone, Noeson or even Smith), imo. with regin coming back this year, there wasn't a pressing need for his services. personally, i like the return. that said, i never liked foligno, haha. he's gone, move along.

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07-07-2012, 09:10 PM
  #27
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I can't believe we're at more than 1000 posts discussing this trade. Even for the off season, it seems excessive.

I have heard at least a few people state that their main problem with the trade is not that Foligno is gone, but that we didn't get enough for him. I'm curious; what do people think would be enough value for Foligno? Forget Methot or anyone else, as that adds in the complication of determining another guy's value; let's talk about draft picks only.

For example, does anyone think Foligno would be worth anyone's 1st-round draft pick for next year's draft? Is a 2nd rounder reasonable?

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07-07-2012, 09:25 PM
  #28
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A lot of people here liked Foligno. Not only as a hockey player but as a person in general.

The way he kicked Phaneufs ass an all.

Even if this wasnt the off season it would be over 1k posts.

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07-07-2012, 10:42 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
We need a left sided D that can keep up with Karlsson. Cowen will be that player in the future, but right now it is too risky playing a 21 and 22 year old as top pairing against the best players in the world.


He may or not be better than the other UFA D men that are out there, but he is cheaper. 3 million for the next few years is a good deal.

Right now our owner seems to want us to be a budget team. It is his right as an owner. We are not the only team in this situation. If Murray had free reigns, he might go after Carle or Garrison. The fact he didn't resign Kuba at the 2 years 8 million he requested shows where we stand on signing and paying players right now.
1. That doesn't answer the question. Him not being able to earn ice time for CBJ proves that he is not the guy who can keep up with Karlsson. Of course I agree there was a need for LD though.

2. The team is ~2M under the floor. Spending 5M on a LD instead of Methot is not a big deal. Fair enough on the rest about being on a budget, but that just proves this trade was made for financial reasons, not necessarily for the good of the team of the ice.

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07-07-2012, 10:54 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
1. He was third in total ice-time amongst defensemen for the Jackets in 2010/2011. He was 4th in ice-time per game in 2011/2012. TOI/G is used in the second year because Methot played only 44 games due to injury. Johnson is also omitted due to previous reasoning. Being the #3 one year, and the #4 the next year is most certainly "earning icetime"

2. It's not about being better than the UFAs. It's about replacing Foligno with a defenseman that fits this team, is locked up at a reliatvely low number, and fits with the youth on this team.
1. Yet they keep acquiring defensemen to push him out of the top 4 and apparently the top 6 too. Maybe Nikitin was a surprise top 4, not expected, but guess who they kept? Guess who they kept, MM or Tyutin? Using total ice time for one season and per game for the other... nice one. In reality he was 4th for both seasons with per game ice time (omitting Johnson, but still a D who was better than him). 4th in ice time on a terrible team and subsequently replaced for upgrades does not qualify you to play top pair on a playoff team. Which was the question, and it's not answered.


2. Well if the UFA are better, which you are suggesting they could be, how would getting Methot be more beneficial to the team? Even if Methot = the UFA, it's not worth sacrificing Foligno. (who fits the youth). I know I'm repeating myself, but you're not answering the question. It's not worth giving up Foligno.

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07-07-2012, 11:26 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Who cares about the 4th line? lol so many players could fill that hole
I do. A strong 4th line goes a long way. The more good players you have on your team, the better your team is including 4th line.

So many that could fill the role better than Greening/Regin/whoever who would be pushed down if Foligno was here? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
And if you don't want Silfverberg on the 2nd line, no problem but may I remind you that Colin freaking Greening played on our first line all season last year... I'll even put both Silfverberg and Zibanejad on the 4th line to keep you happy

Greening-Spezza-Michalek
Latendresse-Turris-Alfredsson
Regin-Smith-Neil
Silfverberg-O'Brien-Zibanejad
Condra/Butler
Having both Silfverberg and Ziby on line 4 is incredibly dumb, can't believe you're suggesting it. Would be horrible for their development.

If both are ready for top 9 roles, trading Foligno is fine, because 4 nice lines can be filled out with those players and their is still nice depth. (not completely against trading Foligno regardless, it's this particular deal for Methot I don't like). However, we don't know if Silf and Zibby will be ready. Foligno is also a better top 6 option than Greening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Even if Silfverberg/Zibanejad totally bust or are not ready (which would surprise me), you have guys like Hoffman, Da Costa, Petersson, Grant, Dzyurdinsky... waiting for an opportunity in Bingo

Heck, a rebuilding team could even afford to play Hugh Jessiman on their 4th line for a few games... Who cares?
Using any of these players instead of Zibby and Silf on the 4th line would be horrible. Either because it would ruin their development like Silf and Zibby, or because Huge Jessiman, Grant and Dizzy just aren't good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
What we should really care and that is KEY for us, SENS FANS, is the development of our young players, not to keep Filip Kuba instead of having Marc Methot, because he'll have more assists at the end of the season (I believe Methot can be as good as Kuba defensively, if not better. Certainly more physical, which will help Karlsson a bit)
Methot is done developing. Not sure how having him over Kuba allows better development for our players.

If Foligno must be traded to make room for young players (which is pretty crazy considering none are likely to match his 47 points), then make a quantity for quality type trade. Foligno++ for a quality player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post


You are really one of a kind. People keep spreading irrefutable arguments but you keep spewing the same baseless non-sense...

If you wouldn't trade Condra or O'Brien (good 4th liners) for Methot, you are seriously delusional or severely underrating Methot.
Look, I'd rather have Kuba than Methot. Even if both are UFA, and could have signed them to their current contracts, I'd pick Kuba. With Kuba, Phillips and Cowen, there would be no need for Methot, so I wouldn't have taken Methot for free. Therefore, I wouldn't have traded Condra or O'Brien for him.

If every single UFA including Kuba would have snubbed Ottawa (I believe Kuba would have signed that contract here), then I would trade Condra or O'Brien. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any room for him.

A little confusing, but basically if Howson approached me asking for Condra for Methot, I would have said no thanks I'll just sign Kuba instead. No need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
No your views aren't clear at all... Maybe you are young so my advice is that you read a bit and learn like we all did (well like some of us did)

You keep repeating that Methot was and was going to be Columbus 6th/7th D-man, that he COULDN'T earn ice-time.

A simple 30 secs research on NHL.com makes me able to come up with some FACTS for you (I hope your teachers tell you that facts are more important than people's opinions)

- Methot was 5th in ice-time per game among Columbus D-men, but that's including Jack Johnson who was acquired in the later part of the season, so Methot was more their 4th before Johnson (they paid Carter for him)

- Methot was 4th in ice-time per game at ES (EVEN STRENGHT) among Columbus D-men, but that's again including Jack Johnson, so Methot was more their 3rd before Johnson

- He played 19 seconds less per game at ES than their #2 D-man, Fedor Tyutin

You know why? Because Methot doesn't play PP


You're not even able to understand simple facts/stats and you're second guessing real professionals? My forehead hurts from facepalming
So what you're saying is that Methot not playing the PP is OK, and has no bearing when comparing him and Kuba for example? You make it sound like PP isn't important.

In reality Cowen is now the #3 PP D-man and the Kuba-Methot swicheroo makes that part of the team much worse. I love how Kuba will ''just put up more assists'', like it makes no difference at all.

Methot also only being 19 sec behind Tyutin in ES ice time could also be interpreted as CBJ not wanting to give Tyutin and others too much ice time/wanting to save them. Not interpreted as Methot being as good as them.

Tyutin missed time last year. Wiz missed a good chunk.Nikitin was acquired during the season. Methot was likely playing big minutes when they weren't in the lineup which inflated his minutes.

Regardless, being #4 on CBJ doesn't make you fit to play top pair on a playoff team, especially when they do everything in their power to replace you. I know I'm repeating myself, but XS and others can't seem to get it through their skulls.

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Old
07-08-2012, 12:55 AM
  #32
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Why would you want Kuba over Methot?

At least Methot hits people.

I'll wait and see how he does before passing judgement.

Try it.

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07-08-2012, 01:07 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Why would you want Kuba over Methot?

At least Methot hits people.

I'll wait and see how he does before passing judgement.

Try it.
Pretty much how Im looking at the trade. I haven't seen nearly enough of Methot to know just what he brings to the table. If he is a true top 4 d-man that plays solid in his own zone, and more physical than a guy like Kuba I think Ottawa did well in the trade.

Time will tell though.

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Old
07-08-2012, 06:33 AM
  #34
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Just looking at his Wikipedia article and it said this,

"On July 1, 2012 Methot was traded to the Ottawa Senators for forward Nick Foligno. Ottawa had on multiple occasions attempted to acquire the defenceman during the 2011-12 season but were unable to get the deal finalized. The loss of two of Ottawa's starting six defencemen via free-agency meant that acquiring a defencemen became a major priority, and the team again set their sights on Methot, an Ottawa native."

Quite interesting (Depending on how truthful it is). Seems like someone BM has really wanted, maybe he is a fairly solid D if BM has been so aggressive in regards to getting him...

But hey, I never watched a blue jackets game... All I've seen of Methot is hits on Youtube... Gonna wait till the season to pass judgement, he seems like a good player though...

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07-08-2012, 07:02 AM
  #35
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Didn't Murray just fulfill his long standing desire to acquire Matt Gilroy?

Did he also share that same sentiment for Commodore, Smith, Picard, etc?

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07-08-2012, 07:33 AM
  #36
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Did he also share that same sentiment for Commodore, Smith, Picard, etc?
Dark days for Sens fan . The immobile defense was pathetic until Karlsson arrived.

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07-08-2012, 08:18 AM
  #37
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Maybe our scouts think one (or more) of our prospects will be significantly better than Foligno and now was the time to use him as an asset for this trade. No more, no less than that. Not a big deal. I'm willing to wait till the end of the next season to see if this is a win, a loss, or a tie.

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07-08-2012, 08:32 AM
  #38
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Foligno's penalties basically nullified his point production, so we shouldn't care that he is gone. This team will be amazing next year. He may have been worth more, but we will miss him about as much as we currently miss Fisher next season.

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07-08-2012, 08:56 AM
  #39
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The difference between Foligno and the guys below him on the depth chart was way closer than the gap between our 4 signed defencemen (Karl, Cowen, Gonch, Rig) and the guys below THEM on the depth chart.

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07-08-2012, 09:00 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
You keep repeating that Methot was and was going to be Columbus 6th/7th D-man, that he COULDN'T earn ice-time.

A simple 30 secs research on NHL.com makes me able to come up with some FACTS for you (I hope your teachers tell you that facts are more important than people's opinions)

- Methot was 5th in ice-time per game among Columbus D-men, but that's including Jack Johnson who was acquired in the later part of the season, so Methot was more their 4th before Johnson (they paid Carter for him)

- Methot was 4th in ice-time per game at ES (EVEN STRENGHT) among Columbus D-men, but that's again including Jack Johnson, so Methot was more their 3rd before Johnson

- He played 19 seconds less per game at ES than their #2 D-man, Fedor Tyutin

You know why? Because Methot doesn't play PP

You know, I used to think that you were just an insane optimist, Xspyrit, but lately you've been spewing a lot of sense. Good post.

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07-08-2012, 09:04 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Didn't Murray just fulfill his long standing desire to acquire Matt Gilroy?

Did he also share that same sentiment for Commodore, Smith, Picard, etc?
And Campoli.

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Old
07-08-2012, 09:14 AM
  #42
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Love foligno, but here's a question...

How many goals did his 124 PIMs cost us last season? He had 37 minors, about 10% of the team total and only one behind Neil. Team had an 81% kill rate, which equates to about 7 or 8 goals against last season because of those penalties. By comparison, our team goal differential was +9.

There's a really valid argument that Foligno's production needs to be discounted a bit due to the amount of time he spent in the box.

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07-08-2012, 09:25 AM
  #43
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Come on man, stop it

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Originally Posted by Dblad the Impaler View Post
Love foligno, but here's a question...

How many goals did his 124 PIMs cost us last season? He had 37 minors, about 10% of the team total and only one behind Neil. Team had an 81% kill rate, which equates to about 7 or 8 goals against last season because of those penalties. By comparison, our team goal differential was +9.

There's a really valid argument that Foligno's production needs to be discounted a bit due to the amount of time he spent in the box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Foligno's penalties basically nullified his point production, so we shouldn't care that he is gone. This team will be amazing next year. He may have been worth more, but we will miss him about as much as we currently miss Fisher next season.
Watch ALL of these please













Last edited by Icelevel: 07-08-2012 at 09:45 AM.
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07-08-2012, 10:10 AM
  #44
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Well, his goalie interference penalty cost us game 6 and his dumb play along the boards cost us game 7.

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07-08-2012, 10:22 AM
  #45
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Well, his goalie interference penalty cost us game 6 and his dumb play along the boards cost us game 7.
Michaleks dumb lazy penalty while we were on a PP had nothing to do with losing game 6??

Kubas lazy penalty didnt cost us game 6?

Alfies epic hissy fit/meltdown had nothing to do with us losing game 6?

Cowen pinching for no reason and Gonchar playing the play poorly were just as bad as Folignos giveaway outside the blueline... Its a team game.

Good to see you are blaming 1 player for 2 losses tho.

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07-08-2012, 10:27 AM
  #46
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07-08-2012, 10:36 AM
  #47
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Watch ALL of these please
I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me. Is your point that Nick took a lot of penalties? Because that was my point too. Who cares if some of them were undeserved? If he keeps blowing guys up and going hard to the net, the calls are going to come.

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07-08-2012, 10:58 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Why would you want Kuba over Methot?

At least Methot hits people.

I'll wait and see how he does before passing judgement.

Try it.
Because Kuba last year is at least just as good defensively as Methot, probably better. He is also significantly better offensively, can pass, shoot, play on the PP, which is something the defense needs.

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Old
07-08-2012, 11:04 AM
  #49
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Because Kuba last year is at least just as good defensively as Methot, probably better. He is also significantly better offensively, can pass, shoot, play on the PP, which is something the defense needs.
Problem is, he's not made for when it really matters...The Playoffs. Poking the puck with your stick and not taking the body in the playoffs will cost you. We saw it this year.

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07-08-2012, 11:10 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dblad the Impaler View Post
I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me. Is your point that Nick took a lot of penalties? Because that was my point too. Who cares if some of them were undeserved? If he keeps blowing guys up and going hard to the net, the calls are going to come.
You're complaining that he hits and goes hard to the net?

Yes, i'm disagreeing with you. Strongly

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