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Nino for Magnus

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Old
07-08-2012, 02:33 PM
  #101
boredmale
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Originally Posted by HemskysGoodShoulder View Post
Surprised at the amount of Nino support. The guy got 1 point in a nhl season. When has that ever happened? We have a 22 year old player who averages 40+ points every single year yet he is a global bust?
MSP hasn't got 40 points in any season so how can he average 40+ points?

Thing that's scary about MSP to me is last season his season took a major downturn(I think he had like 8 points in 40 games), you want to see some forward momentum in a guys career.

In the case of Nino the team mismanaged him(this season should have been his first pro season). I personally would love to see how many points MSP could get playing with Reasoner and Pandolfo while playing less then 10 minutes a game.

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07-08-2012, 02:36 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
the issue that people are having with your statements is that you are sayin nino has more value than his season had implying that there's no value being offered, but every excuse you're making for him can be made for Paajarvi as well, and he at least had a successful rookie season so by all rights he should hold more value. You can't pump one guys tires and ignore their issues and assume the other one is crap.
An Oilers fan started the thread, not an Islanders fan. We're not the ones asking for Paajarvi, fans of your team are asking for Nino.

When Isles fans refused the offer, it turned into a Nino bashfest. In this context, Oilers fans opinions don't matter because they're not the ones that are giving up Nino. You can throw out all the stats and numbers you want, keep trashing Nino, but you won't be able to bully or convince us into trading him.

The kid is 19 years old, and nobody in the Islanders organization has given the slightest hint they're looking to trade him. He's certainly not untouchable like Tavares or Hamonic, but that doesn't mean you can have him for pennies on the dollar. Back in the 90s, the Islanders traded a struggling Todd Bertuzzi as part of a package for Trevor Linden. I'd like to keep developing the top-5 19 year old power forward, believing he'll get better than his value right now.

If you think Paajarvi is worth more than Nino, good for you. We certainly don't, and thus the trade doesn't get made.

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07-08-2012, 02:38 PM
  #103
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Nino is really young. He was about a month shy of being eligible for the 2011 NHL draft. So, basically he was a wet behind the ears 19 year old playing in the NHL on a 4th line on the arguably one of the worst teams in the NHL. He virtually had no chance. However, not making an excuse here for Nino he had a horrible year statistically.

MPS is 1 and a half years older than Nino. This is a decent amount of time difference between the 2 players right now.

I would think the first year in the NHL where MPS had 34 points he did have decent ice time with some decent hockey players instead of washed up Pandolfo and Reasoner. The Isles do not put their prospects into positions for them to succeed.

I believe both players are legit prospects with real good size and skill.

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07-08-2012, 02:40 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Ddeathblade View Post
Exactly what I came to post. Nino is almost 20, you can use 21 and 19 but Nino is barely a year younger than Magnus. And Paajarvi scored 34 points in his 19-20 year old NHL season.

.
Nino turns 20 yrs old September 08, 2012.
Paajarvi turned 21 this past April.

That's almost one and a half 's difference in their ages.

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07-08-2012, 02:43 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by CodeE View Post
I knew Oilers fans would only quote the first part of what I said and valiantly try to defend RNH.

I was using him as an example, relax. But thanks again for ignoring my main point: If you want to acquire Nino, you'll have to pay what the Islanders believe his worth is, not Oilers fans or Blues fans on hfboards.
For the bold:

You can replace Nino with Paajarvi, you can replace Islanders with Oilers and replace Oilers or Blues with Islander fans.

It works both ways.

You can say Paajarvi is not what you're looking for, but to call him crap when you're offering Nino '1 goal in NHL season' Niederreiter in return, no one can take you seriously.

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07-08-2012, 02:45 PM
  #106
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And now a Rangers fan comes on to tell me Nino is worthless and nobody takes me seriously. Typical.

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07-08-2012, 02:47 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Nino turns 20 yrs old September 08, 2012.
Paajarvi turned 21 this past April.

That's almost one and a half 's difference in their ages.
Then, half a year into the 2011-2012 NHL season Nino should've been playing at the same level as Paajarvi did in his 2010-2011 NHL season. He's a year and a half younger, fine. But it doesn't change the fact that Nino had a terrible season, and showed very little of what he was drafted to do. I'm not trying to bash on him, I think his upside is tremendous and could very well turn into a much superior player than Magnus will be.

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07-08-2012, 03:07 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by CodeE View Post
And now a Rangers fan comes on to tell me Nino is worthless and nobody takes me seriously. Typical.
It seems he didn't call Nino worthless. Nino has received a fair bit of support from all sides in this thread despite his rookie season yet you think it fine to call Magnus crap/worthless.

.....and it seems you now feel hard done by.

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07-08-2012, 03:26 PM
  #109
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Eh. Nino had a bad season after he was thrown to the wolves on the Isles 4th line while not NHL ready. It happens. Most of you here were ready to anoint Schenn >>> Pietrangelo when the latter didn't immediately go to the NHL.

Once Niederreiter matures enough for the NHL he'll be a good deal better and more valuable than MPS.

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07-08-2012, 03:33 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by LotteryForLife View Post
Not quite sure what you could be thinking to make a comment like that. The Islanders have a far deeper cast than the Oilers, a real NHL goaltender, a true superstar that is better than any 2 of your #1 picks combined, and do you really think that Nail Yakupov is gonna make any difference. You're team is destined for another top 3 pick. Enjoy it
I agree that there is no reason to believe Edmonton will be better than the Isles next year, in fact i think it will be close with NY maybe having a slight edge but your comments are way off base. Lets do a comparison.

You are right that Tavares is the best player on either team, but he's also the oldest of the #1's and Edmonton's 2 experienced 1st's are tracking better or as good. Tavares is not much better than Hall atm, and the Nuge IMO is every bit as likely to be as good as Tavares (i'd even argue better, but hey i'm biased even if he had the better rookie year).

Tavares rookie year, 0.66ppg
Hopkins rookie year, 0.84ppg

And just in case you are wondering Tavares had 2 more points in 20 more games, so yeah waaay better. Hopkins at this point is easily projecting as the better player.

Now lets compare him to Hall,

Tavares rookie year, 0.66ppg
Hall's rookie year, 0.65ppg

Tavares sophmore year, 0.85ppg
Hall's sophmore year, 0.87ppg

Seems like so far they are in a virtual deadlock in terms of projection. And that's not even considering Hall has the better +/-, and has been on the worse team. Even Tavares' ppg season this year isn't that big of a difference compared to what Hall brought this year. I won't bring up advanced stats, as nobody seems to understand them or give them any value on here.

------------------------------------------------------

The goaltender comment is amusing, Dubnyk is the more enviable starter IMO.

Dubnyk -- 47gms, .914sv%, will be 26 next year
Nabokov - 42gms, .914sv%, will be 37 next year

I think i'd rather go with the guy a decade younger.Or did Edmonton's defense give Dubnyk an edge despite being "the worst in the league"

------------------------------------------------------

Now lets compare the rest of the team,

1st line

Moulson-Tavares-Okposo
Hall-Hopkins-Eberle

Now Moulson is very underrated and he's a legitimate 1st liner but Hall is better AINEC. Hopkins and Tavares are close, with Hopkins projecting better and Tavares coming off the superior season, Tavares for next season has the edge. Eberle slaughters Okposo, that's all there is to this comp. So comparing 1st lines are a huge win for Edmonton.

2nd line

Grabner-Nielsen-Boyes(i think, he's certainly the most appropriate option)
Hemsky-Gagner-Yakupov

Hemsky is easily the better player in comparison to Grabner, and is even coming off a better season despite it being his worst year of his career. Both are in their 20's so age isn't a factor. Clear win for Hemsky. Nielsen at this point is a comparable offensive talent to Gagner, and isn't likely to be equal for too much longer, however he is a vastly superior defensive talent. Clear win for Nielsen. Yakupov may be a rookie and Boyes may of had some great years in the past, but he's one season removed from a decent year and 3 years removed from a very good one. I'll be generous and call this a tie, despite Boyes' immense struggles last season. So 2nd line is a tie, NY does have the better center but Edmonton has the much better high end potential. If Hemsky returns to form, and i think he will, then Edmonton wins this in a landslide.

3rd Line

Ullstrom-Bailey-Niederreiter(Bailey is listed in the middle for lack of a better option)
Smyth-Horcoff-Paajarvi

Edmonton has clearly the two best players in Smyth and Horcoff. Despite the negativity surronding Horcoff and his deal, he does remain a solid NHLer. Bailey and Ullstrom do not come close in this comparison. Paajarvi and Niederreiter, both far from locks for the 3rd line but possibilites and good comps, are a tie IMO. So Edmonton has the huge edge in 3rd lines, but Strome is a possibilty for the top 6 meaning the pushing of Nielsen/Boyes down could see this comp. be closer. In saying that atm Gagner/Yakupov would have a clear edge over Strome making this a moot point.

4th Line + Spares

Cizikas, Joensuu, Reasoner, Martin, Boulton, McDonald
Jones, Hartikainen, Belanger, Eager, Hordichuk, Petrell

First things first, Nelson, Strome, and Kabonov do not qualify for this comp. as they have yet to play a game in the NHL and are not a lock to either. Pitlick and Rieder do not qualify for this reason as well and i'll put Lander in here to try and even out the prospects being DQed. Also i tried to order them from best to worst, while also trying to compare the most similar talents as well.

Cizikas is a good young option for the 4th but at this moment is not as good as Jones is. I compared these two because they play a high energy game and have the ability to chip in. Jones wins easy, but Cizikas could suprise.

Joensuu does not seem to project as well as Hartikainen, and has enjoyed very limited success. However i am willing to call this a tie, as neither player is all that proven. In reality i think Hartikainen is clearly better, but i'll try to consider my bias and give the benifit of the doubt to Joensuu. Tie.

Reasoner is coming off a year even worse than Belanger, and despite a similar reputation has never been considered as good. Easy win for Belanger.

Martin and Eager are both useless. Eager is the better more proven player, but Martin seems to know his role better. Again i'll give the beinfit of the doubt to NY and call this a tie.

Again we are comparing two marginal players but Hordichuk is better at hockey and just as willing to do the enforcers job. Easy win for Hordichuk, although this has little effect on the comparison. Win for Edmonton, but it's pretty irrelevant.

McDonald and Petrell both bring a lot of similarites, i'd say Petrell is more skilled having watched both but who cares. Tie.

So in summary the forward comparison sees Edmonton win the 1st line by a landslide. The 2nd line a tie with maybe a slight edge to NY. The 3rd is another landslide for Edmonton. The 4th/spares too looks like a win for Edmonton, with Jones being the best player by a fair bit. So overall a win for Edmonton.

------------------------------------------------

Lets go on to defense,

1st pair

MacDonald-Hamonic
Smid-Petry

MacDonald is very underrated but is clearly below Smid in defensive ability. Easy win for Smid, although MacDonald is very unheralded and a solid top 4 option. Hamonic and Petry is a very interesting comp., Petry arguably had the better year but is also older. Both have great size and the threat of a two way game. Next season i think Petry has maybe a slight edge, but an argument to the contrary is certainly reasonable. Hamonic does proably have a better future, although Petry is going to shock alot of people by just how good he is. Considering it all Hamonic probably gets the edge here. 1st pairing a tie, although if i had to choose i'd say Edmonton has the edge.

2nd pair

Visnovsky-Streit
Whitney-J.Schultz

I don't know if these two will play together on either club, but the NY pair are clearly the next best two on the club, and the Edmonton pair provides the best comp. Considering Whitney and Vish were just dealt for one another and are both coming off poor years after tremendous ones, i'd call this a tie (If Vish returns to form you have a tremendous player btw, loved him in Edmonton was very disapointed when he was traded). Streit didn't have a great year, but he's still a very good player and much more proven. I'd say J.Schultz is the much more valuable player, and could easily be the better of the two as early as next year based off reports but Streit atm has a clear edge. Streit wins easy. NYI has the edge on the second pairing.

3rd pair and spares

Donovan-DeHaan-Carkner-Ness
N.Schultz-Sutton-Peckham-Potter

N.Schultz is by far and away the best player here, and i'd even say Sutton is the second best. Donovan and DeHaan are nice prospects, and could be better than Sutton by next year but thats certainly not a likely scenario. Clear and easy win for Edmonton. Carkner has a clear edge over Peckham atm, but going forward Peckham should have the much better career. Carkner wins the battle of the enforced dmen, but not by much. For next season, Potter is clearly the better option over Ness (who may not be the most appropriate guess for #8 on the depth chart, but i fail to see a better one). Edmonton wins this comp. rather handily IMO.

-------------------------------------------

So in conclusion Edmonton has the better forward group, and the goaltending lets call a tie (i won't even bother to compare Khabi to DiPetro or Poulin to Danis, despite me thinking Edmonton has the advantage here). On defense i'd call it a tie, NY does have the better 2nd pair which is typically more valuable than the edge Edmonton has on the 3rd pair, however N.Schultz is a top 4 guy and the edge Edmonton has on the 3rd pairing/spares is monumental. I'd call the defense a tie, but IMO that's being very generous to NY considering how weak their depth is. If you think this is wrong, what evaluations do you disagree with, and why?


Last edited by Eskimo44: 07-08-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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Old
07-08-2012, 03:34 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Eh. Nino had a bad season after he was thrown to the wolves on the Isles 4th line while not NHL ready. It happens. Most of you here were ready to anoint Schenn >>> Pietrangelo when the latter didn't immediately go to the NHL.

Once Niederreiter matures enough for the NHL it is a possibility that he'll be a good deal better and more valuable than MPS.
Fixed for you.

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07-08-2012, 03:35 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Eh. Nino had a bad season after he was thrown to the wolves on the Isles 4th line while not NHL ready. It happens. Most of you here were ready to anoint Schenn >>> Pietrangelo when the latter didn't immediately go to the NHL.

Once Niederreiter matures enough for the NHL he'll be a good deal better and more valuable than MPS.
The same could be said about Paajarvi, it's not like he was playing in the top 6. And if Paajarvi was ready as a 19 year old (which i am assuming you think as you never mentioned that in regard to him) and Nino not ready at the same age, why does he project better?

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07-08-2012, 03:36 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Ddeathblade View Post
Then, half a year into the 2011-2012 NHL season Nino should've been playing at the same level as Paajarvi did in his 2010-2011 NHL season. He's a year and a half younger, fine. But it doesn't change the fact that Nino had a terrible season, and showed very little of what he was drafted to do. I'm not trying to bash on him, I think his upside is tremendous and could very well turn into a much superior player than Magnus will be.


I don't think any Isle fans in this thread, will disagree that Nino had a terrible rookie season.

Now,find a link from a credible source saying the isles have soured on the 19 yr old or are shopping him.Then his trade value will matter.

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07-08-2012, 03:40 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Why would Snow be looking to move the 6'3 19 r old,who's physical and chippy play is needed in Snow's top 6?

Paajarvi is not bumping left wings Moulson,Grabner or Bailey out the top 3 lw spots.Kabanov and Ullstrom will be either on LI or Bridgeport pushng for a spot.I doubt Snow has interest in Paajarvi.
Grabner took a step back last year and his level of play is yet TBD as well. Bailey? I'd take Paajarvi over Bailey all day every day.

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Originally Posted by Wilch View Post
Trade makes no sense.

Their values are close IMO, but they're both LHS wingers, both listed at 6'2 and 205lb. One is two years younger and picked 5 spots higher, both lottery picks nonetheless.

Might've made sense if it was a D for C/W swap.
Fair post.

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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
MSP hasn't got 40 points in any season so how can he average 40+ points?

Thing that's scary about MSP to me is last season his season took a major downturn(I think he had like 8 points in 40 games), you want to see some forward momentum in a guys career.

In the case of Nino the team mismanaged him(this season should have been his first pro season). I personally would love to see how many points MSP could get playing with Reasoner and Pandolfo while playing less then 10 minutes a game.
I believe the poster was talking about Gagner and how HF as a whole craps on him despite having put up 40+ points every year in his career.

And yes Paajarvi did regress, it is not uncommon for that to happen to 2nd year players. He was getting 10 minutes a night a number of times being saddled with Eric Belanger whose offensive game dove off a cliff last year. It's not as if Paajarvi got to play with RNH and Eberle all year long, not even close. Both Paajarvi and Nino got crap offensive linemates and I'm sure that it didn't help either of their causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Eh. Nino had a bad season after he was thrown to the wolves on the Isles 4th line while not NHL ready. It happens. Most of you here were ready to anoint Schenn >>> Pietrangelo when the latter didn't immediately go to the NHL.

Once Niederreiter matures enough for the NHL he'll be a good deal better and more valuable than MPS.
Time will tell that story, saying that either one will be >>>>> the other at this point is very premature unless the person saying it has a crystal ball. Until Nino at least matches Paajarvi's rookie season, hell even his poor sophomore season, it's far from a sure thing that he'll be >>>>> Magnus.

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07-08-2012, 03:44 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I don't think any Isle fans in this thread, will disagree that Nino had a terrible rookie season.

Now,find a link from a credible source saying the isles have soured on the 19 yr old or are shopping him.Then his trade value will matter.
No one is saying that the isles have soured on him, far from it. This is a message board, proposals are for ***** and giggles. It ain't real life.

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07-08-2012, 03:47 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by CodeE View Post
Doesn't matter if every Oilers fan (and Blues fans... why are they so involved in an Isles/Oilers trade proposal???) in the world says Paajarvi has more value... Islanders still won't trade Nino for him.

Both players underachieved last season, and we'd rather keep our underachiever. Nino isn't untouchable, but if you want him on your team, you're going to have to deliver a package that's acceptable to both sides, not just the side you're on.
Because this isnt the edmonton or isles board and is open to discussion. Without other teams input all you get is a pissing match between 2 fanbases. Why wouldnt you want outside oppinion?

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07-08-2012, 03:50 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Grabner took a step back last year and his level of play is yet TBD as well. Bailey? I'd take Paajarvi over Bailey all day every day.

.
Grabner has scored 54 goals over the last 2 seasons.If Grabner has taken a step back in his sophmore season, scoring only 20 goals in the nhl,then I guess Paajarvi has taken 3 steps back being unable to stick in the nhl this season and scoring 2 goals in the nhl.

22 yr old Bailey is a solid defensive player and good pk player.
Not much interest in exchanging him for 21 yr old Paajarvi.

Isles also have lwers Ullstrom, expected to make the move up from the AHL to the isles and Kabanov,expected to make the move from juniors to the AHL.

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07-08-2012, 03:51 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
MSP hasn't got 40 points in any season so how can he average 40+ points?

Thing that's scary about MSP to me is last season his season took a major downturn(I think he had like 8 points in 40 games), you want to see some forward momentum in a guys career.

In the case of Nino the team mismanaged him(this season should have been his first pro season). I personally would love to see how many points MSP could get playing with Reasoner and Pandolfo while playing less then 10 minutes a game.
He is obviously mentioning Gagner who is 22 and guaranteed 41-49 points but is a bust but a 20 year old with 1 point is SO valuble

You saw it this year with Belanger and Eager/Jones whatever scrub. Managment wised on to Renney and sent him to the AHL


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07-08-2012, 03:53 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
No one is saying that the isles have soured on him, far from it. This is a message board, proposals are for ***** and giggles. It ain't real life.
Well if the isles haven't soured on him an aren't tying to move him,does the opinion of armchair gms over his trade value matter?

Just wondering why so much concern from nonIsles fans,over Nino?

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07-08-2012, 04:12 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Grabner has scored 54 goals over the last 2 seasons.If Grabner has taken a step back in his sophmore season, scoring only 20 goals in the nhl,then I guess Paajarvi has taken 3 steps back being unable to stick in the nhl this season and scoring 2 goals in the nhl.

22 yr old Bailey is a solid defensive player and good pk player.
Not much interest in exchanging him for 21 yr old Paajarvi.

Isles also have lwers Ullstrom, expected to make the move up from the AHL to the isles and Kabanov,expected to make the move from juniors to the AHL.
34 to 20 = a 41% dip in goal scoring. That is sizable, my point isn't that he sucks or anything, just that he may/may not prove to be a 30 goal scorer again going forward. And yes Paajarvi did take significant steps back, however I can say that he took gigantic steps forward in the AHL playoffs. So while his year started poorly it ended pretty damn well and he improved on a lot of areas that helped him to slump so damn bad.

As for Bailey, I'll agree to disagree. Whether or not your team could use a player like Paajarvi is one thing, but people calling him crap in this thread just to prop up Nino have no need to do so, both struggled but both could and should go on to have solid NHL careers.

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07-08-2012, 04:35 PM
  #121
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a 41% dip in goal scoring. That is sizable, my point isn't that he sucks or anything, just that he may/may not prove to be a 30 goal scorer again going forward. And yes Paajarvi did take significant steps back, however I can say that he took gigantic steps forward in the AHL playoffs. So while his year started poorly it ended pretty damn well and he improved on a lot of areas that helped him to slump so damn bad.


Isles will look at Grabner's 54 goals over the last 2 seasons,along with his cheap $2m salary in 2012-2013 and prefer Grabner in their top 6 to Paajarvi($1.5m).

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07-08-2012, 04:56 PM
  #122
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Trading Nino now makes zero sense.
Same with trading MPS.

Not sure how people view this as so lopsided for the Oilers and the Islanders get hosed...

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07-08-2012, 05:13 PM
  #123
RehnX
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I hate the Isles, but there is no way I would trade Nino for MPS. MPS is the better offensive player(at least at this moment), but Nino is a better 2 way player(if anyone tries to point out his +/-, I'ma scream, he plays in the Atlantic, for a team that was 26th in the league in goals against/game).

Nino>

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:22 PM
  #124
gooilgo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Well if the isles haven't soured on him an aren't tying to move him,does the opinion of armchair gms over his trade value matter?

Just wondering why so much concern from nonIsles fans,over Nino?
No the opinion of HF does not matter.

Newsflash... The value of the likes of Nino, PRV, Gagner is greater in real life than on HFBoards.

I doubt any GM's use HFBoards as a point of reference.

Sure it would be great if the trolls stayed under their bridge, but hey its not a perfect world.

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Old
07-08-2012, 05:29 PM
  #125
CREW99AW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
No the opinion of HF does not matter.

Newsflash... The value of the likes of Nino, PRV, Gagner is greater in real life than on HFBoards.

I doubt any GM's use HFBoards as a point of reference.

Sure it would be great if the trolls stayed under their bridge, but hey its not a perfect world.
I think Isle fans will start worrying about Nino's trade value,when someone credible says he's being shopped.

I do love when threads reach the 'well,your team won't get a better offer,so be happy with my crappy proposal' stage

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