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Sign Claude Giroux to a 10+ year contract extension ASAP

View Poll Results: Is it time?
Yes -- new provisions in the next CBA could be scary 35 72.92%
No -- too much risk 13 27.08%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-07-2012, 11:09 PM
  #26
MsWoof
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
People thinking that players are scared to sign longterm deals with Holmgren because of Richards and Carter should get over it. He had to trade them and did it, things like that happen and players know it. Any GM could do it. I've got the feeling that Giroux really enjoys the Flyers and would like to stay with us, and it probably won't take a 8mil salary to keep him. But it's just a feeling.
Why do people assume that a player will take a hometown discount? Every player says he loves the city, that doesn't mean a thing. Maybe Giroux wants to test free agency like Suter and Parise when he's eligible, who knows? He will have every team trying to sign him and will have his choice, should he go to free agency in a few years. There is no reason for him to give a discount.

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07-07-2012, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Why do people assume that a player will take a hometown discount? Every player says he loves the city, that doesn't mean a thing. Maybe Giroux wants to test free agency like Suter and Parise when he's eligible, who knows? He will have every team trying to sign him and will have his choice, should he go to free agency in a few years. There is no reason for him to give a discount.
Maybe he won't? Notice how 2 marquee players were free agents and countless others who could have been weren't.

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07-07-2012, 11:16 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Why do people assume that a player will take a hometown discount? Every player says he loves the city, that doesn't mean a thing. Maybe Giroux wants to test free agency like Suter and Parise when he's eligible, who knows? He will have every team trying to sign him and will have his choice, should he go to free agency in a few years. There is no reason for him to give a discount.
It means something to Crosby who takes a lower cap hit than he would normally get to give the Pens flexibility to add more players. It's not an every day occurrence, but it does happen. Giroux seems like the kind of guy who wants to win no matter what.

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07-07-2012, 11:20 PM
  #29
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Depending who the Bum plays, Roo might want out for a team that actually has a G.

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07-07-2012, 11:43 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think the Richards and Carter trades had some complicating factors. It's tough to read into Holmgren's philosophy on team building from that trade. The whole dynamic/situation there was weird, and that's even if you give Carter and Richards the benefit of the doubt about things that aren't absolute fact.

Gagne being part of the core of the team at that point in his career is debatable, but I do wish they'd have held onto him. I actually dislike the degree of roster turnover we've seen in general under Holmgren, so I won't defend all of his moves tooth and nail. I just disagree with premise from which the accusations of disloyalty are made. Trading someone isn't a form of betrayal. Trades are a necessary part of doing business.
All I know is Holmgren was happy enough to extend Carter for 11 years and less than a year later he dumps him after telling him he wouldn't. It doesn't look good on Holmgren or the organization.

I agree Gagne's future with the team was debatable at that point, but the way that was handled could give pause to some players and agents in particular. Gagne was a career Flyer and he was shoved out the door was a salary dump to fit in the likes of Shelley and Zherdev.


Well I would say lying and telling a player you won't trade them and then turn around trading them is a form of betrayal. Aside from that, a trade isn't a betrayal, but players crave stability. They also want loyalty in exchange for the their loyalty.

The Flyers lack stability on the roster. They have not been able to grow a core and stick with it. They also show no loyalty. Holmgren has shipped out players that were homegrown talent that were key pieces for years and had long term commitments from the organization. You don't think players and their agents are sitting up and taking notice? If a player is going to give a team a hometown discount what are they going to receive in return for leaving money on the table? How can they trust Holmgren that this time it's going to be different?

It's not just that players have to fear being traded. They have to fear if their teammates will be here. If you are Giroux are you happy Jagr is gone because Holmgren chose to chase Parise?


I do think this is a factor that is going to bite Holmgren in the immediate future.

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07-07-2012, 11:50 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Depending who the Bum plays, Roo might want out for a team that actually has a G.
OOHHHHH, i see what you did there..


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07-08-2012, 12:06 AM
  #32
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Well I would say lying and telling a player you won't trade them and then turn around trading them is a form of betrayal. Aside from that, a trade isn't a betrayal, but players crave stability. They also want loyalty in exchange for the their loyalty.

The Flyers lack stability on the roster. They have not been able to grow a core and stick with it. They also show no loyalty. Holmgren has shipped out players that were homegrown talent that were key pieces for years and had long term commitments from the organization. You don't think players and their agents are sitting up and taking notice? If a player is going to give a team a hometown discount what are they going to receive in return for leaving money on the table? How can they trust Holmgren that this time it's going to be different?
Why is it different? Well, Giroux is a top five player in the NHL. Something Carter, Richards, Gagne, and JVR were not.

Giroux should understand that if he can maintain his level of play, then his job will be safe. It's really that simple.

Quote:
It's not just that players have to fear being traded. They have to fear if their teammates will be here. If you are Giroux are you happy Jagr is gone because Holmgren chose to chase Parise?
Come on, man. Jagr wasnt going to be re-signed for $4.5m. Not to mention there's no guarantee Jagr would have returned even if we offered it. The man turned down Pittsburgh last season (as well as other, bigger offers) to fulfill some gut feeling he had about playing in Philly. Jagr is a weird guy, it's very possible he just wants to play wherever he feels compelled to play.


And besides, if you're Giroux, shouldnt you be happy that Holmgren is going out of his way to provide the best possible winger for him to play with?

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Old
07-08-2012, 12:06 AM
  #33
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The point of this thread is moot now, since the extension isn't allowed. It should probably be closed, but I'm only bumping it by about 10 minutes to post this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
All I know is Holmgren was happy enough to extend Carter for 11 years and less than a year later he dumps him after telling him he wouldn't. It doesn't look good on Holmgren or the organization.

I agree Gagne's future with the team was debatable at that point, but the way that was handled could give pause to some players and agents in particular. Gagne was a career Flyer and he was shoved out the door was a salary dump to fit in the likes of Shelley and Zherdev.
The acquisition of Andrej Meszaros had a much bigger impact on forcing out Gagne. Shelley only makes about a half a million above the minimum. His impact on cap structure is almost nil. Zherdev was signed for that year to replace Gagne.

Anyhow, after Gagne was traded, Jeff Carter signed an extension. After Carter and Richards were traded, JVR, Coburn and Grossmann signed extensions. There is no evidence of deleterious effects as of yet. So far players have still been perfectly willing to sign extensions for the right dollar.

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07-08-2012, 12:17 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Why is it different? Well, Giroux is a top five player in the NHL. Something Carter, Richards, Gagne, and JVR were not.

Giroux should understand that if he can maintain his level of play, then his job will be safe. It's really that simple.


Come on, man. Jagr wasnt going to be re-signed for $4.5m. Not to mention there's no guarantee Jagr would have returned even if we offered it. The man turned down Pittsburgh last season (as well as other, bigger offers) to fulfill some gut feeling he had about playing in Philly. Jagr is a weird guy, it's very possible he just wants to play wherever he feels compelled to play.


And besides, if you're Giroux, shouldnt you be happy that Holmgren is going out of his way to provide the best possible winger for him to play with?
Is he a top 5 player? What if he had a career year at 24 like Richards and Carter?

Holmgren himself said that Jagr grew impatient of waiting around while Holmgren had offers on the table for Parise. It sounded like he was willing to sign Jagr, but he was Plan B.

That's a fair point. He could be happy about that, but the list of players that wanted to be here and no longer aren't is growing longer.

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07-08-2012, 12:23 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The point of this thread is moot now, since the extension isn't allowed. It should probably be closed, but I'm only bumping it by about 10 minutes to post this:



The acquisition of Andrej Meszaros had a much bigger impact on forcing out Gagne. Shelley only makes about a half a million above the minimum. His impact on cap structure is almost nil. Zherdev was signed for that year to replace Gagne.

Anyhow, after Gagne was traded, Jeff Carter signed an extension. After Carter and Richards were traded, JVR, Coburn and Grossmann signed extensions. There is no evidence of deleterious effects as of yet. So far players have still been perfectly willing to sign extensions for the right dollar.
I believe the Flyers were under the cap until they signed Shelley and Zherdev. The combined salaries of Shelley, Zherdev, and Walker accounted for most of his cap hit. Either way, the point still stands that he was a career Flyer that was reduced to a salary dump and shoved out the door.

Coburn and Grossmann both made sure they were covered with no trade protection. The real test will be with the RFA's who are ineligible to receive them initially. Will a Giroux be willing to sign a long term deal at less than market value when he could be dumped at any time? I'm not as confident in him doing the team any favors as most people.

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07-08-2012, 12:26 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Is he a top 5 player? What if he had a career year at 24 like Richards and Carter?

Holmgren himself said that Jagr grew impatient of waiting around while Holmgren had offers on the table for Parise. It sounded like he was willing to sign Jagr, but he was Plan B.

That's a fair point. He could be happy about that, but the list of players that wanted to be here and no longer aren't is growing longer.
He was certainly a top five player last year-- again, something Richards, Carter, Gagne, and JVR never were.

So, naturally, if Giroux maintains his status as one of the elite players in the game, he will be a Flyer as long as he wants to be. If last season was a career year, then so be it. It's up to Giroux to maintain a high level of play, not Holmgren.

And Jagr should never have been a priority-- with a talent like Parise on the market, it's worth the risk. Let's drop the Jagr thing because I think we both know Giroux isnt angry at Holmgren for not making him priority #1 on July 1st. Whether you are mad at Holmgren for it is your call-- but dont try to play it off like Giroux should be also. Giroux doesnt need Jagr to be successful.

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07-08-2012, 12:30 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I believe the Flyers were under the cap until they signed Shelley and Zherdev. The combined salaries of Shelley, Zherdev, and Walker accounted for most of his cap hit. Either way, the point still stands that he was a career Flyer that was reduced to a salary dump and shoved out the door.
Sequence is not the same as cause and effect. Defensive depth was the priority that summer, and Gagne was the casualty. It may not have been publicly confirmed at the time, but when Meszaros was signed the Flyers exit plan for Gagne was already put in motion. Zherdev was only brought in to replace him. Gagne eventually relented and waived his NTC for Tampa, but it was not the first time he had been asked.

Shelley had almost nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Coburn and Grossmann both made sure they were covered with no trade protection. The real test will be with the RFA's who are ineligible to receive them initially. Will a Giroux be willing to sign a long term deal at less than market value when he could be dumped at any time? I'm not as confident in him doing the team any favors as most people.
If it were allowed, my proposal in the OP wouldn't really be a favor. This summer may be the last chance for players to get extremely long term contracts. In a league with guaranteed contracts, that's what most players want. It would be a win for Giroux financially and a win for the Flyers competitively and cap-wise.

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07-08-2012, 12:52 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
All I know is Holmgren was happy enough to extend Carter for 11 years and less than a year later he dumps him after telling him he wouldn't. It doesn't look good on Holmgren or the organization.
It is very difficult to discuss the Carter and Richards trades because very little was openly said as far as what precipitated those trades. Everyone reads between the lines and get something different, so it's unlikely we are going to draw the same conclusions from it (re: Holmgren). I personally dislike Carter from how I have seen him treat fans on occasion, and some of the rumors you hear about him would be consistent with the character I've seen him show before. Granted I don't know the guy, but if there's that much douhebaggery on the surface, chances are the guy is just ****** all the way through. I think he and Richards are so tight they're nearly a package deal. With Richards not on speaking terms with Laviolette by the year's end, had to get moved and Carter wasn't exactly an endearing guy.

This will probably kick off a massive **** storm. Awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I agree Gagne's future with the team was debatable at that point, but the way that was handled could give pause to some players and agents in particular. Gagne was a career Flyer and he was shoved out the door was a salary dump to fit in the likes of Shelley and Zherdev.
Shelley, Zherdev and Mezsaros, to be fair. I almost consider those two trades with Tampa as one transaction. Mezsaros was possibly our most productive d-man that year as well. I would be lying if I said it didn't leave a bad taste in my mouth though. I wish Gagne was still a Flyer today. Hell, if he can next year, I would love for Holmgren to bring Gagne back as a third line winger. He would be amazing in that role if that bridge isn't already burnt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Well I would say lying and telling a player you won't trade them and then turn around trading them is a form of betrayal. Aside from that, a trade isn't a betrayal, but players crave stability. They also want loyalty in exchange for the their loyalty.
We don't know what Carter did (or to play devil's advocate, didn't do) to make Holmgren willing to trade him. But do you really think Holmgren went into that deal with a premeditated intention of misleading Carter?Who negotiates an 11 year deal in bad faith. Maybe a two year deal....maybe. Something drastic happened to make Holmgren not want to have to have those two around for the rest of their deals. That seems painfully obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The Flyers lack stability on the roster. They have not been able to grow a core and stick with it. They also show no loyalty. Holmgren has shipped out players that were homegrown talent that were key pieces for years and had long term commitments from the organization. You don't think players and their agents are sitting up and taking notice? If a player is going to give a team a hometown discount what are they going to receive in return for leaving money on the table? How can they trust Holmgren that this time it's going to be different?
I don't think I said anyone should give Holmgren a hometown discount. I did say that the possibility of being traded shouldn't keep any player from getting his salary for the next ten years locked in if he likes the number. Not being signed long term is certainly not going to put you in a more stable position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
It's not just that players have to fear being traded. They have to fear if their teammates will be here. If you are Giroux are you happy Jagr is gone because Holmgren chose to chase Parise?


I do think this is a factor that is going to bite Holmgren in the immediate future.
I think it's a reach for either one of us to suggest Giroux feels a certain way about decisions who's ramifications right now are ambiguous. He may have feelings about the decision, but who knows what he thought about it. It's not like it was an obviously good or bad decision (especially when we see Jagr getting nearly 5 Mill from Dallas).

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07-08-2012, 02:02 AM
  #39
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Since this is turning into Richards/Carter Redux Part 846, here is some interesting audio from Brian Burke at the 2011 Draft (none of it particularly mind-blowing at this point). Skip to 1:38.



Burke: Made your big deal?
Howson: Yeah. Paid a lot.
Burke: You have to pay a lot to get good players. We were in on the other guy [Richards] more. But we like your guy a lot too. It's the right... we need someone to play with Kessel. You got the right guy.

...

Burke: Still trying to sign him? [JVR, I'm pretty sure]
Holmgren: Yeah. I got a little more flexibility now.
Burke: Ok. Well our 4th is a 100. So decent a decent 4th. My offer stands.
Holmgren: (Nodding unenthusiastically).

....

Burke: We thought we had him at the deadline.
Holmgren: We had a guy like that. [Zherdev, context guess]
Burke: Well we've got lots of hard-nosed, hard-working guys... but you need some skill at some point. You can't win with a bunch of Paul Holmgrens and Brian Burkes.

---

My guess is that Burke offered Holmgren Schenn and a 4th for JVR at the draft last year and was denied. JVR didn't have the year the Flyers were expecting and they traded him straight up for Schenn.

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07-08-2012, 09:16 AM
  #40
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Yes. Sign him for any amount for as long as heavenly possible. Sign him until he's 90, sign him until crippling arthritis means he cannot walk. He's the Flyers' best player since Lindros.

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07-08-2012, 09:35 AM
  #41
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12 years 100 million with a NTC... Show him that he's worth every bit as much as Parise or Suter would have been to this team.

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07-08-2012, 09:59 AM
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You can't just sign a guy to an extension when he has a current deal. There has to be one year or less left on his contract.

/thread

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07-08-2012, 10:01 AM
  #43
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You can't just sign a guy to an extension when he has a current deal. There has to be one year or less left on his contract.

/thread
Contradicted yourself there

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07-08-2012, 10:03 AM
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Contradicted yourself there
Not to mention we already knew this.

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07-08-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Not to mention we already knew this.
You'd be surprised what a lot of people on this site don't know..

Someone suggested giving Weber a 100k bonus for every time he plays in nashville..

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07-08-2012, 02:13 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Well it's all academic now. Giroux can't get any new contracts until next July. I still say sign him ASAP, though.

Last night, in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLsnipers View Post
You can't just sign a guy to an extension when he has a current deal. There has to be one year or less left on his contract.

/thread
This morning.

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You'd be surprised what a lot of people on this site don't know..
We were on it.

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07-08-2012, 03:43 PM
  #47
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And none of them were ever or will ever be a top 5 player in the game.
And Giroux isn't either, yet. You don't become that based on one season, one playoff series, and your coach mistakenly proclaiming you the best player in the world.

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07-08-2012, 03:48 PM
  #48
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And Giroux isn't either, yet. You don't become that based on one season, one playoff series, and your coach mistakenly proclaiming you the best player in the world.
Sigh. It'd be one thing if this season came out of nowhere for Giroux. However, if you've been paying attention for the last three years, you'd know the opinion people espouse about him being one of the best players in the game isn't based "on one season, one playoff series, and your coach mistakenly proclaiming you the best player in the world." Oh, and by the way, on that day and in that series, Giroux was the best player in the world.

And here's the best part: Giroux is only going to get better. I guarantee you -- yes, guarantee -- he scores 40 goals this upcoming season.

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07-08-2012, 03:50 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Depending who the Bum plays, Roo might want out for a team that actually has a G.
Good point, especially since he may be a reason for players not wanting to come here.

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07-08-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
He was certainly a top five player last year-- again, something Richards, Carter, Gagne, and JVR never were.

So, naturally, if Giroux maintains his status as one of the elite players in the game, he will be a Flyer as long as he wants to be. If last season was a career year, then so be it. It's up to Giroux to maintain a high level of play, not Holmgren.

And Jagr should never have been a priority-- with a talent like Parise on the market, it's worth the risk. Let's drop the Jagr thing because I think we both know Giroux isnt angry at Holmgren for not making him priority #1 on July 1st. Whether you are mad at Holmgren for it is your call-- but dont try to play it off like Giroux should be also. Giroux doesnt need Jagr to be successful.
Giroux lobbied hard for Jagr to be resigned. Angry might not be the right word, but disappointed at the very least.

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