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[OTT/CBJ] Nick Foligno for Marc Methot Part II

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Old
07-08-2012, 03:55 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by iLOVEkubasTUBA View Post
I'm all for the trade, but these threads make we want to turn back time....40+ pages for Nick Foligno...WTF...
Imagine what would happen if we traded Jason Spezza or Erik Karlsson? Christ. We'd probably have more threads than that 20+ part Roberto Luongo thread on the main forum.

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07-08-2012, 03:57 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
St. Louis? Shattenkirk and Petro are both quite young, not sure if they played on the same pairing, but they are the 1 and 2 dmen for the blues.
Yes. Shattenkirk turned 23 sometime in the middle of last year. They're at least the closest top pair so young in recent memory. Scandella and Spurgeon I think were the top pair in Minny last year as well and they were both 22/21 but desperation may have been a factor there.

I'm excited to see what Cowen can bring next year. He had some impressive flashes of play last season which he should build on. I'm confident he will in time but if he's good enough next year to settle on the top pair age shouldn't get into it.

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07-08-2012, 03:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Didn't Murray just fulfill his long standing desire to acquire Matt Gilroy?

Did he also share that same sentiment for Commodore, Smith, Picard, etc?
Fair enough then, I take my comment back (to some extent).

Still not gonna judge Methot till the season starts though.

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07-08-2012, 04:09 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Because Kuba last year is at least just as good defensively as Methot, probably better. He is also significantly better offensively, can pass, shoot, play on the PP, which is something the defense needs.
In 73 games Kuba, who had a pretty good season in 20011/12, recorded 6 goals and 26 assists, averaged 23:36 TOI/game with 1:58 PP TOI/game. He was paired with the highest scoring defenceman on the fifth highest scoring team in the NHL.

BTW those 32 points were third for D-men, just 12 more than Gilroy who played a majority of the season with TB and had little PP time. Kuba really wasn't the offensive threat you are suggesting.

In 46 games Methot recorded 1 goal 6 assists, averaged 20:03 TOI/game with 0:03 PP TOI. Not terrible for a defensive defenceman that played on a team that was 28th out of 30 teams in scoring.

You have consistently stated Methot was not in the top four in TOI on Columbus so therefore isn't a top 4 defenceman.

However you ignore the fact TOI for a defensive D-man is affected to a greater extent by the score in a game than that of an offensive D-man. When your team is behind most games a coach out of necessity goes more often with offensive minded players.

Taking into account Columbus lost 46 games and 7 more in OT, Methot was still 4th in shifts/game, barely behind Nikitin and slightly ahead of Johnson. A very telling stat considering Columbus' overall record and general need for more offence.

So while you may not like the trade, or believe Foligno had more value in a trade it is just your opinion based on emotion not fact.

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07-08-2012, 04:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by iLOVEkubasTUBA View Post
Man, I wish this trade never happened....
I find it an odd reaction from some people. Foligno was a fun player to have on the roster, he hit a ton, had some offense and was a pretty good leader, but in what world is a 6'4", defensive D-man who's actually really fast not worth Nick Foligno?

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07-08-2012, 05:01 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Didn't Murray just fulfill his long standing desire to acquire Matt Gilroy?

Did he also share that same sentiment for Commodore, Smith, Picard, etc?

Murray and his team have tried to make trades/signings to fill a team need, whether that was physical D-men or puck movers. Did all these moves work out as hoped for? absolutely not.

However since the SCF run in 06/07 Murray had to replace Corvo, Priessing, Redden, Volchenkov, Schubert, and Mesaros mostly due to player decline, contract demands or trade requests. The only player to stick is Phillips.

So while the current D has yet to be tested as a group, Karlsson, Cowen, Gonchar, Methot, Lindin, and Phillips are as talented overall as the 06/07 group and possibly better balanced in terms of skill, size and physicality.

Building a team is a process, some players don't fit, some don't live up to expectations, some are moved to fill bigger needs and some are moved to create opportunities for youth. What the Sens have experienced under Murray is not unique in the NHL.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 07-08-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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07-08-2012, 07:28 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
St. Louis? Shattenkirk and Petro are both quite young, not sure if they played on the same pairing, but they are the 1 and 2 dmen for the blues.
That doesn't answer the question. Top pairing =/= top 2 defensemen. Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk had veteran partners in Colaiacovo and Jackman like how Cowen and Karlsson had Kuba and Gonchar. That's a significant piece of information when we enter into this discussion.

Anyone else?

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07-08-2012, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
That doesn't answer the question. Top pairing =/= top 2 defensemen. Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk had veteran partners in Colaiacovo and Jackman like how Cowen and Karlsson had Kuba and Gonchar. That's a significant piece of information when we enter into this discussion.

Anyone else?

Karlsson is a veteran for the most part... adding Cowen to his line is like a Seabrook, Keith line. They both came through the blackhawks system at the same time, maybe a year or so apart.

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07-08-2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DylanSensFan View Post
Karlsson is a veteran for the most part... adding Cowen to his line is like a Seabrook, Keith line. They both came through the blackhawks system at the same time, maybe a year or so apart.
Difference being that Keith was 25 or so when he entered the league, right? Karlsson is 22. Might not seem like a lot but Cowen and Karlsson are still both young regardless of how they play and I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a more veteran presence playing with Karlsson.

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07-08-2012, 07:58 PM
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Srsly, can we let Methot play some games on our jersey before people get all butt hurt over the trade.

Alfie help us if we actually made a big trade.

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07-08-2012, 08:20 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by TheSilfverBullet View Post
Difference being that Keith was 25 or so when he entered the league, right? Karlsson is 22. Might not seem like a lot but Cowen and Karlsson are still both young regardless of how they play and I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a more veteran presence playing with Karlsson.
he was 23 when he enter the league... Keith that is.

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07-08-2012, 08:24 PM
  #87
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Seabrook was even younger.

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07-08-2012, 08:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
In 73 games Kuba, who had a pretty good season in 20011/12, recorded 6 goals and 26 assists, averaged 23:36 TOI/game with 1:58 PP TOI/game. He was paired with the highest scoring defenceman on the fifth highest scoring team in the NHL.

BTW those 32 points were third for D-men, just 12 more than Gilroy who played a majority of the season with TB and had little PP time. Kuba really wasn't the offensive threat you are suggesting.

In 46 games Methot recorded 1 goal 6 assists, averaged 20:03 TOI/game with 0:03 PP TOI. Not terrible for a defensive defenceman that played on a team that was 28th out of 30 teams in scoring.

You have consistently stated Methot was not in the top four in TOI on Columbus so therefore isn't a top 4 defenceman.

However you ignore the fact TOI for a defensive D-man is affected to a greater extent by the score in a game than that of an offensive D-man. When your team is behind most games a coach out of necessity goes more often with offensive minded players.

Taking into account Columbus lost 46 games and 7 more in OT, Methot was still 4th in shifts/game, barely behind Nikitin and slightly ahead of Johnson. A very telling stat considering Columbus' overall record and general need for more offence.

So while you may not like the trade, or believe Foligno had more value in a trade it is just your opinion based on emotion not fact.
Not sure what Methot's ice time has to do with my post. Anyway, it was high enough as you pointed out, was it supposed to be a reason for his low point totals or something?

Anyway #2, Methot is significantly worse than Kuba offensively, numbers and career numbers speak for themselves. Kuba may not be a natural PP QB, but he had a 35+ point pace, which is significantly better than Methot, but also significantly better than Gilroy who you felt the need to bring up for some reason.

Kuba is a decent PP option. Now both Phillips and Cowen will get PP time, one of them likely on the 1st unit. Ouch. Not looking forward to that unless Cowen learns how to use his big shot.

Remember when the D was too defensive D-man heavy? Those days were not fun.

Not to mention sacrificing Foligno for this D-corps downgrade.

Also, it's not emotion. If Methot was a legit first pair D, no way would I be sad. I liked Foligno but it wasn't a man crush. I don't know what kind of value he held, but if this was it, he should have been kept.

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07-08-2012, 08:35 PM
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If Methot was a legitimate first pairing defenseman Murray would be a genius for getting him for an unsigned arguable third liner.

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07-08-2012, 08:38 PM
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If Methot was a legitimate first pairing defenseman Murray would be a genius for getting him for an unsigned arguable third liner.
Exactly except for the 3rd liner part. So we agree, he's not a genius?

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07-08-2012, 08:39 PM
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http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1222957

Well that's that guys. We was screwed.

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07-08-2012, 08:40 PM
  #92
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I'd be angry if every one of your replies was not so damn funny.

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07-08-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
Srsly, can we let Methot play some games on our jersey before people get all butt hurt over the trade.

Alfie help us if we actually made a big trade.
This 1000x over!

Foligno = a glorified 3rd liner that will always leave you wanting more at the 2nd line position. We've prospects coming that trounce Nick's hockey IQ and will provide superior numbers down the road (referring to 2nd liners). I know everyone likes his wannabe dekes and ill-advised penalties, but c'mon...he's not a franchise player. Sure he threw some hits and fought Dion, but that's what your 3rd liners do.

Get over it, he's not coming back, lol.



/thread(s)


Last edited by Nabokov20: 07-08-2012 at 08:47 PM. Reason: grammar
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07-08-2012, 08:58 PM
  #94
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Get over it, he's not coming back, lol.
Well how awesome would it be if he did come back after his contract is up? Come back to join the team while all the young players are hitting their stride and we become a contender and he's in his prime at 28. Methot becomes a reliable partner for Karlsson while Cowen and Ceci become one of the best pairings in the NHL

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07-08-2012, 09:00 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Not sure what Methot's ice time has to do with my post. Anyway, it was high enough as you pointed out, was it supposed to be a reason for his low point totals or something?

Anyway #2, Methot is significantly worse than Kuba offensively, numbers and career numbers speak for themselves. Kuba may not be a natural PP QB, but he had a 35+ point pace, which is significantly better than Methot, but also significantly better than Gilroy who you felt the need to bring up for some reason.

Kuba is a decent PP option. Now both Phillips and Cowen will get PP time, one of them likely on the 1st unit. Ouch. Not looking forward to that unless Cowen learns how to use his big shot.

Remember when the D was too defensive D-man heavy? Those days were not fun.
While the offense from the D won't be as strong as this season past, there really is no need to think it will be like 2009 when Kuba and Campolli lead the team in D pts. We do have Karlsson and Gonchar, so we're certainly not devoid of puck movement, we just became more balanced.

We do have the option of putting a 4th forward on the 1st line PP if some combination of Cowen/Phillips can't cut it.

Quote:
Not to mention sacrificing Foligno for this D-corps downgrade.

Also, it's not emotion. If Methot was a legit first pair D, no way would I be sad. I liked Foligno but it wasn't a man crush. I don't know what kind of value he held, but if this was it, he should have been kept.
Someone already mentioned it, but if Methot was a known legit 1st pairing D, Murray would have just made one of the biggest steals in a while. The value of Foligno for Methot is fair, nobody really stole this deal, it was just two teams trying to fix their perceived organizational needs.

People are saying your valuation is emotional because your making it out like Methot is a 6/7 D-man, which he is clearly not.

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07-08-2012, 09:16 PM
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We do have the option of putting a 4th forward on the 1st line PP if some combination of Cowen/Phillips can't cut it.
Its not really an option at this point but a necessity now. Neither Cowen or Phillips should be on any teams 1st PP unit. That PP's gotta be top 10 for any chance of the post season and I doubt Maclean will be patient enough with Cowen in that role he is not a quite study.

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07-08-2012, 09:21 PM
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Its not really an option at this point but a necessity now. Neither Cowen or Phillips should be on any teams 1st PP unit. That PP's gotta be top 10 for any chance of the post season and I doubt Maclean will be patient enough with Cowen in that role he is not a quite study.
PP was 11th last year and the team made the playoffs? If Methot is as good as everyone says the D should be improved so less goals should hopefully be needed too right?

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07-08-2012, 09:25 PM
  #98
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One and a half shift Karlsson on the PP. Karlsson-Gonchar -> Karlsson/Phillips-Cowen

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07-08-2012, 09:47 PM
  #99
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between last thread and this one, we are over 1100 posts. the CBJ are sitting at 175.

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07-08-2012, 09:58 PM
  #100
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between last thread and this one, we are over 1100 posts. the CBJ are sitting at 175.
Wait, that's ludicrous... They have a board?

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