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Rick Nash continued - Portzline: NYR PHI PIT DET SJS and BOS

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Old
07-08-2012, 10:10 PM
  #51
Blueline Bomber
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Originally Posted by Captain Tripps View Post
Nash is 28 years old. Suggesting that he has "untapped potential" is... interesting.

Though if he had a return to form, then in theory he would be a top-5 goal scorer, seeing as there were only 4 40 goal scorers last season.
Even if he doesn't, I can't explain why so many fans are against grabbing him. His average goal amount over the past five years is 35 goals, playing with the likes of Huselius and Vermette.

If your team has the luxury of turning away a 35-goal scorer, I envy you.

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07-08-2012, 10:11 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
Haha. It's not at all that simple. And it's a pretty silly way of trying to break things down.

One 40g scorer is worth a ton more than Two 20g scorers.

By that sort of foolish logic, Crosby is worth three ~17g scorers. Good deal.


Your right it is quite silly. You seemed to miss a lil bit out of all that, although you did end up help with my main objective i'm trying to get across to some people somehow haha. I was responding mainly about certain prospect "value" to someone who needed help in that area. But your right a 40 goal scorer IS worth a lot more than a couple 20 goal guys...prolly 3. Prucha's in Russia. Do the math now.

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07-08-2012, 10:12 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
lmao....one effing year he's decent (dubs) and now Nash is the one that's overpaid.
First-- Dubinsky was on pace for 50+ points the year before his "decent" year as well. So that would be two "decent" years in a row.

Second-- I don't know what you're getting out of this, but you might as well just stop talking about the Rangers' players. You've been one of the biggest reasons these threads have gone on as long as, and with as much animosity as they have. You disparage the Rangers' players over and over again, while simultaneously proving through your comments that you DON'T EVEN WATCH THE RANGERS PLAY. Your opinion on the Rangers' players is worthless.

Case in point: Dubinsky in particular has been a target of your mockery. You insist that you've seen him play over and over again, yet, based on the post linked below, you don't even know that he's been a LW for over two and a half years. Funny how you are such an expert on a player, yet you don't even know what position he plays.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=18

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07-08-2012, 10:14 PM
  #54
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Would you trade Miller for Rickard Rakell?? He outproduced him on the same team, so that makes him better? But I know he gets extra "value" points cuz he was drafted by a top notch franchise.

And 2012 Playoff stats: Jenner-4g 7a 11p Thomas-2g 2a 4p...Who outproduced who? Thomas was like .1ppg better in the regular season. Factoring in the bonus "value" points for being a year younger and playoff performance we'll call it a wash with the "value" points Thomas gets for being Ranger property.

And since 2000 the Bluejackets have drafted 2 players who scored 20, the Rangers 4. Wow. How bout 40 goals?? Jackets: 1 and Rangers: 0...You cant add bogus "value" points to 0, thats a rule. So the simple "value" answer to to end all of this is that the Bluejackets need 2 of the 4 20 goal scorers for 1 40 goal scorer.

So 2 of Petr Prucha, Ryan Callahan, Brandon Dubinsky, Derek Stepan for Rick Nash. Simple as that.
Guess you missed the point of why I brought it up.


The Rangers won 51-games last year with five players in their top 9 who were Rangers draftees. In the postseason, the number went up to 6 when you include Kreider.

Dubinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Hagelin, Anisimov, and later, Kreider.

When teams play as well as the Rangers did with a majority of home-grown players, it adds to the credibility of the front office and the quality of their non-NHL amateurs.

When a team like the BJ's displays a tough time developing NHL talent at the forward postion, it hurts the FO's credibility.

Add to that the fact that between 2002 and 2008, the BJ's drafted forwards 1st overall, 4th overall, 8th overall, 6th overall, 6th overall, 7th overall, and 6th overall in consecutive years, and only 3 of 7 still have an NHL job speaks volumes.

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07-08-2012, 10:14 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Not according to mathematics.
Uhhh... no. Unless the very unlikely situation that you will be replacing the other player by someone who scores 0 goals.

40Goals + X(When x is above 0) > 20Goals + 20 Goals.

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07-08-2012, 10:17 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
And since 2000 the Bluejackets have drafted 2 players who scored 20, the Rangers 4. Wow. How bout 40 goals?? Jackets: 1 and Rangers: 0...You cant add bogus "value" points to 0, thats a rule. So the simple "value" answer to to end all of this is that the Bluejackets need 2 of the 4 20 goal scorers for 1 40 goal scorer.
Remind me again--where have the BJ's been drafting again? How many of those picks since 2000 have been in the top 3? Top 5? How many of the Rangers picks since 2000 have even been in the top 10?

Even though the BJ's ALWAYS draft significantly higher than the Rangers, the Rangers have developed double the number of 20+ goal scorers (and that's not even factoring in the development of defensemen or goalies). And if not for the tragic death of Cherepanov, the disparity would be even greater. I don't know what you're crowing about. All you've proven is that the Jackets strike out playing T-Ball while the Rangers hit for average in the bigs (you're SUPPOSED to get an impact player drafting where the BJ's draft).

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07-08-2012, 10:17 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Even if he doesn't, I can't explain why so many fans are against grabbing him. His average goal amount over the past five years is 35 goals, playing with the likes of Huselius and Vermette.

If your team has the luxury of turning away a 35-goal scorer, I envy you.
I don't consider it a luxury when we have to pay through the nose to get him.

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07-08-2012, 10:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SCinSJ View Post
Uhhh... no. Unless the very unlikely situation that you will be replacing the other player by someone who scores 0 goals.

40Goals + X(When x is above 0) > 20Goals + 20 Goals.
There are also a comical amount of other variables, including obvious ones such as time on ice and quality of opponents.. list goes on.. etc.

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07-08-2012, 10:22 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Seriously? Then I have two 20 goal scorers to sell you for Crosby.
If those two 20 goal scorers are also capable of tallying 80 assists then you have a deal.

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07-08-2012, 10:28 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SCinSJ View Post
Uhhh... no. Unless the very unlikely situation that you will be replacing the other player by someone who scores 0 goals.

40Goals + X(When x is above 0) > 20Goals + 20 Goals.
You could bring that replacement in without the trade and have the same amount of goals. Maybe the 40 goal player is more valuable, but "a ton" more? I just don't see it.

Contrary to the belief in this thread, 20 goals doesn't grow on trees.

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07-08-2012, 10:31 PM
  #61
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anything over a 1st round pick is gross overpayment for this player. he is a lazy floater, and all the talent in the world can't re-train his work habits.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 07-08-2012 at 10:40 PM. Reason: not neccessary
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07-08-2012, 10:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Even if he doesn't, I can't explain why so many fans are against grabbing him. His average goal amount over the past five years is 35 goals, playing with the likes of Huselius and Vermette.

If your team has the luxury of turning away a 35-goal scorer, I envy you.
Rick Nash is the fifth highest paid player in the league. If you think think is anywhere near the fifth best player, I don't know who you are watching.

Much like Brian Campbell who is an excellent puck moving defenceman who puts up great numbers, he is worth nowhere near his contract.

If there was no salary cap like the old days, there would be a feeding frenzy from teams like Philly, NYR, Toronto etc. But with the cap world every dollar you waste on Nash is a dollar less for another player down the line.

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07-08-2012, 10:32 PM
  #63
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Haha nice, some of u are adding up "value" points well in Nash's favor, good to see. There's way more to "value" than numbers and franchise history. Now the others are turning it into who's franchise is better thing again between an original 6 team and a team thats made the playoffs once. Hmm no wonder you feel this way bout Kriester. You guys don't have anything relevant to come back to my original point that Miller and Thomas are not the type of "AMATEUR" prospects that are gonna 'wow' Columbus in a package with a Dubinsky/Anisimov type guy. They have a handfull of guys that are just as "valuable" in the org. already...even without the NYR prestige.

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07-08-2012, 10:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Even if he doesn't, I can't explain why so many fans are against grabbing him. His average goal amount over the past five years is 35 goals, playing with the likes of Huselius and Vermette.

If your team has the luxury of turning away a 35-goal scorer, I envy you.
If your team has the luxury of trading 5-6 assets and taking on a 7.8M caphit, I envy you.

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07-08-2012, 10:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
I wish there was a way to get him in Colorado.

I have felt for a long time now that Stastny + Nash would be a match made in heaven. Stastny plays best with big bodied power forwards that can shoot and win along the boards. Nash needs a playmaking center that knows how to be a part of a play without dictating the pace of the line.
Just offer a cap dump like Dubinsky
A couple average prospects like Thomas & Miller
1st round pick

You will have the Rangers beat right there (better first rounder maybe)

Nash will need to expand the list though....

Hope this helps...

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07-08-2012, 10:41 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
Haha nice, some of u are adding up "value" points well in Nash's favor, good to see. There's way more to "value" than numbers and franchise history. Now the others are turning it into who's franchise is better thing again between an original 6 team and a team thats made the playoffs once. Hmm no wonder you feel this way bout Kriester. You guys don't have anything relevant to come back to my original point that Miller and Thomas are not the type of "AMATEUR" prospects that are gonna 'wow' Columbus in a package with a Dubinsky/Anisimov type guy. They have a handfull of guys that are just as "valuable" in the org. already...even without the NYR prestige.
What makes you think these prospects are the same? And, if they are the same and Columbus holds them in high regard, why wouldn't they want to get them? I mean, for them, having more would be awesome. They lack depth up front and having more prospects that are like the ones they have, if they like them, would be exactly what they would be looking for. Also, the sheer quantity of prospects would lead to having more players likely to be in the NHL and contribute.

Columbus is not getting the select 3 from the Rangers. If they aren't getting star players from other teams, they might as well accept the best offer. I doubt many of the other teams are throwing a forward that is a veteran and is as good as Dubinsky is. The prospects from both sides might be the same, but the centerpiece of the deal is not.

EDIT: If Dubinsky at 4.2 is a cap dump, Rick Nash at 7.8 is the same.

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07-08-2012, 10:42 PM
  #67
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No way he goes to Detroit (within Division), Flyers don't need him, and Pittsburgh I am not sure has the assets. I still say it's between SJ and NY.

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07-08-2012, 10:43 PM
  #68
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i think some people seriously undervalue rick nash. he has produced goal totals of 41,31,27,38,40,33,32,30.... with a below average team and linemates.

he is a 5 time NHL all star, olympic gold winner (two appearances).. a former rocket richard winner..

and is still UNDER 30 years old.

with some solid linemates he is easily an annual 40 goal scorer for the next 4-6 years still.

if noone is able to/willing to part with some serious assetts + future considerations than columbus should just keep him while they can. hes a big league talent.

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07-08-2012, 10:45 PM
  #69
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anything over a 1st round pick is gross overpayment for this player. he is a lazy floater, he's got the columbus disease and all the talent in the world can't re-train his work habits.
What a terribly misinformed opinion.

As a fan of another team, I can safely say that anyone who doesn't see the benefit in adding Rick Nash needs to watch him more.

In the games against Colorado, he was the ONLY guy playing defense on his line. I specifically remember him even covering for defenders sometimes who were simply terrible. I can't even count the number of times where I've asked myself how Nash managed to get back to win the puck battle when he was just up the ice.

He has tremendous hands, the type which could score 40+ goals with a bit of chemistry and the right system. He's capable of playing a physical game and shielding the puck with extremely impressive success. He is a leader for his team and I bet he wouldn't hesitate to return to Columbus and play for them if his GM were capable of quietly shopping him rather than leaking this to the public.

Any team with the depth and prospects to sacrifice shouldn't hesitate to add him to their roster. But I'm just not sure what direction Columbus wants to go in trading him. Complete rebuild? Retool? If Nash is moved they will need more skill up front.

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07-08-2012, 10:45 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=974

I think we all missed something very important in the last thread. A Rangers trposter clearly implied that Rick Nash is a superstar.

Also, I love this, so those who've done it, please continue -- that is, make a definitive post about this is my final offer take it or leave it, and then continue to post. This ranks only slightly ahead of stating "I wish more people got this" to a statement that has absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever. Those are awesome, too, though. Don't want anyone thinking I said they're third-rate posts.
Is he not a superstar?

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07-08-2012, 10:45 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by GoldenJet89 View Post
i think some people seriously undervalue rick nash. he has produced goal totals of 41,31,27,38,40,33,32,30.... with a below average team and linemates.

he is a 5 time NHL all star, olympic gold winner (two appearances).. a former rocket richard winner..

and is still UNDER 30 years old.

with some solid linemates he is easily an annual 40 goal scorer for the next 4-6 years still.

if noone is able to/willing to part with some serious assetts + future considerations than columbus should just keep him while they can. hes a big league talent.
I'm willing to part with serious assets that are in the minors. Columbus wants key roster players. How is giving up multiple roster players for one improving the team?

Kreider is our best LW. Stepan is a top 2 center. McDonagh is arguably the best player on the team outside of Lundqvist. They aren't prospects.

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07-08-2012, 10:49 PM
  #72
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It really doesn't matter what other fans think of any of the players or the teams involved in the Nash derby.

What's significant is that Columbus will be better in the long run no matter what they get in return.

I just hope he doesn't go to the Rangers

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07-08-2012, 10:50 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Just offer a cap dump like Dubinsky
A couple average prospects like Thomas & Miller
1st round pick

You will have the Rangers beat right there (better first rounder maybe)

Nash will need to expand the list though....

Hope this helps...

Hey look, he's talking about a player he hasn't seen play in at least three years again. I bet his opinion is mighty valuable on that player!


Last edited by smoneil: 07-08-2012 at 10:56 PM.
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07-08-2012, 10:52 PM
  #74
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Rick Nash is the fifth highest paid player in the league. If you think think is anywhere near the fifth best player, I don't know who you are watching.

Much like Brian Campbell who is an excellent puck moving defenceman who puts up great numbers, he is worth nowhere near his contract.
That's where you're wrong. Nash's contract isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be, especially with the way free agency has played out thus far. In a world where Wideman gets 5 million, Nash at 7.8 isn't that bad. And in fact, in a year or two, will likely be on par with other star players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
If your team has the luxury of trading 5-6 assets and taking on a 7.8M caphit, I envy you.
Carolina does have that luxury. The only reason they've balked is when Columbus asked for a player that has produced like Nash. It was a parallel move at best for them. Ranger fans are balking when a guy who's put up 7 points in the league is asked for a guy who's averaged 35 goals.

I understand being high on your prospects and having hope that they'll pan out and become impact players. But if that hope is preventing you from acquiring a proven asset, I don't know what to tell you.

Canes fans are really high on Murphy. Everything we've heard from Day 1 is that he's got the potential to be one of the most dynamic offensive defensemen this league has seen in ages (and yes, that includes Karlsson and Green). Would I trade Murphy for Nash? In a heartbeat. I'd be angry if Murphy DID turn out to be that player, but the production of Nash in the time it takes him to BECOME that player would ease the pain...a lot. And if Murphy didn't turn out to be that player...

Unless you believe Kreider can be a consistent 40-50 goal scorer, and have some sort of guarantee, I don't see why he'd put a stop to a deal to acquire a 35-goal scorer. The only explanation I could come up with would be salary, but for a team that's paying a guy 6.5 million to play in the minors...

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07-08-2012, 10:54 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
Haha nice, some of u are adding up "value" points well in Nash's favor, good to see. There's way more to "value" than numbers and franchise history. Now the others are turning it into who's franchise is better thing again between an original 6 team and a team thats made the playoffs once. Hmm no wonder you feel this way bout Kriester. You guys don't have anything relevant to come back to my original point that Miller and Thomas are not the type of "AMATEUR" prospects that are gonna 'wow' Columbus in a package with a Dubinsky/Anisimov type guy. They have a handfull of guys that are just as "valuable" in the org. already...even without the NYR prestige.


The point in comparing what the two teams have developed over the last 10 years is to demonstrate that maybe, just MAYBE, the Rangers' scouts have been doing a better job than the Columbus scouts. As such, the players near the top of the Rangers prospects list are more than likely going to be better than guys who you think "are just as 'valuable'" that are already in the BJ's organization. Is that an unfair statement to make? I don't know. Let's look at the last 10 years of evidence.

That's fine that Miller and Thomas aren't prospects that "wow" your management. On the other hand, you might want to consider the fact that your management has a proven track record of being "wowed" by players who seem to fail/bust with alarming frequency.

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