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Give Gomez one last chance?

View Poll Results: Give Gomez One Last Chance?
Yes 86 31.62%
No 186 68.38%
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07-08-2012, 10:15 PM
  #351
Frozenice
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
If we are stuck with Gomez, minors being ruled out as the obvious solution...

I think this would b making the best out of a bad situation

Eller- Pleks - Cole
Max- DD - Palushaj (or who wins the spot in camp)
Bourque- Gomez - Gionta
Moen - White - Prust
Noke
I'd prefer MaxPac/DD/Cole line to stay intact.

Eller/Pleks/Leblanc or #94 or Moen

Bourque/Gomez/Gionta.

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07-09-2012, 07:27 AM
  #352
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If we give Gomez one last chance (4th one), then I suppose you will want us to give both BOURQUE and KABERLE one last chance too. lol

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07-09-2012, 07:45 AM
  #353
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Sadly he will not be sent down and will start the season in Montreal.
It's pretty obvious now since MB made no effort to acquire a top 6 player because he didn't have the cap space.
Huh ? We are the 9th of July not Oct 4th.

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07-09-2012, 07:47 AM
  #354
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Huh ? We are the 9th of July not Oct 4th.
Yeah but WE KNOW that MB made no efforts at all to make this team better

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07-09-2012, 08:22 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
If we give Gomez one last chance (4th one), then I suppose you will want us to give both BOURQUE and KABERLE one last chance too. lol
I'm speculating here, but I think you'll be very disappointing at the start of the season.

Imagine telling your boss "we have nearly $15M in assets that I don't really like and that are under performing, so I'm just going to put them all in the trash can and replace them by gambling on different assets that may or may not work and that are likely to cost just as much".

There's real money behind those contracts. Someone's paying those players. Sure, the Rangers have burrowed players in the past. But I don't see the Canadiens sending Bourque, Gomez AND Kaberle to the AHL. And let's be honest, we'd have to give up assets for another team to take on those contracts.

We're most likely stuck with them for at least one or two seasons. We might get rid of one of them, but not all three.

Unless some kind of miracle happens and some team inquires about Bourque or Kaberle.

So really... You might as well be at peace with that idea and give those guys a chance. They might surprise us! (I'm being very hopeful)

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07-09-2012, 09:02 AM
  #356
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In an ideal World, Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle and even Gionta would be dealt before the beginning of next season... But reality is that they all probably be in the starting line up next October.

If we could get two solid wingers (between 25 and 32) for Plekky for these four, I would be as thrilled as the next guy.

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07-09-2012, 09:06 AM
  #357
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Wait for the opportunity to dump excess baggage at the minimum cost (it would still be expensive).

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07-09-2012, 09:41 AM
  #358
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Why is Bourque being included in this discussion? He played 38 games with us! Can we exercise a modicum of patience? Jesus. People wonder why Habs fans have the reputation they do.

The irony is that if Bourque were a UFA, people would be dying for us to sign him. But now that we saw him play a whopping 38 games with us, he's trash and should be in the AHL forever.

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07-09-2012, 09:50 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Why is Bourque being included in this discussion? He played 38 games with us! Can we exercise a modicum of patience? Jesus. People wonder why Habs fans have the reputation they do.

The irony is that if Bourque were a UFA, people would be dying for us to sign him. But now that we saw him play a whopping 38 games with us, he's trash and should be in the AHL forever.
Well, that too. Not only has Bourque played very few games with us, but he played during a really tough period during which most of the team, especially forwards that weren't on the first line, didn't look so good.

Under a different coach, in a different system, in a much more stable and sane environment, odds are, he'll do better.

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07-09-2012, 10:14 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
Depends if there's anyone better to replace him. The team doesn't automatically get better by removing him from it. The salary doesn't come into it until there are players that can be signed that require more cap room. So the first question now in training camp is who is playing better Nokelainen or Gomez. If it's Nokie then Gomez becomes 13th forward. Then it's a matter of whether any of the young centres in Hamilton play well enough to force their way into the team and make roster spaces an actual issue. Or we still might sign or trade for a player that does likewise.
Ok so if Nokie outperforms Gomez, and a roster player gets injured so a rookie can come in and outperform Gomez as a as a 13th forward, and Gomez still doesn't get sent down wouldn't that be insane??

Believe me all this stuff will happen and we will be left scratching our heads again.

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07-09-2012, 10:36 AM
  #361
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Ok so if Nokie outperforms Gomez, and a roster player gets injured so a rookie can come in and outperform Gomez as a as a 13th forward, and Gomez still doesn't get sent down wouldn't that be insane??

Believe me all this stuff will happen and we will be left scratching our heads again.
Well why don't you wait until it happens before you start crying about it? Although if the above is your actual question then, no, I would rather Gomez be '13th forward' rather than one of the young kids, they ain't going to develop watching from the pressbox for weeks on end.

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07-09-2012, 10:40 AM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Why is Bourque being included in this discussion? He played 38 games with us!
And sucked quite prodigiously in those 38 games.

I don't promote sending any of them to the AHL at this point... free agency is essentially over, and we don't have anything else to use the cap space on, so we might as well cross our fingers and hope any or all of them (them = Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle, aka "the undesirable albatross trio") bounce back.

I'm not optimistic about it happening, though. Usually when players suck prodigiously, it's because... they suck prodigiously.

To get out from under those 3 contracts, and create flexibility for future signings/player raises, I'd cut and run on any of those 3 contracts at the first available zero-cost-to-us opportunity, however. I'd forego the chance at rejoicing in their rebounds for the security of not having to deal with the more-likely continuance of sucking, and being free to move on to new gambles next season.

But I don't see any zero-cost-to-us opportunities arising anyway, so it's no biggie. I'm resigned to the hail mary hope they play well for us. And who knows, even without total-rebounds, maybe Kaberle and Bourque at least are inexpensive enough that if they just have quasi-decent seasons they could actually be deadline assets that could bring greater than zero return. I'm a bit more optimistic about that potential outcome than about the chances of them bouncing all the way back to being fully-desirable-non-albatross players-we-want-to-keep-past-this-year. But anything's possible.

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07-09-2012, 10:46 AM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Why is Bourque being included in this discussion? He played 38 games with us! Can we exercise a modicum of patience? Jesus. People wonder why Habs fans have the reputation they do.

The irony is that if Bourque were a UFA, people would be dying for us to sign him. But now that we saw him play a whopping 38 games with us, he's trash and should be in the AHL forever.
Problem is that how many players "that has so much to prove to the world" come with a pathetic effort like he did? I mean, players like him should not be available. And if they are, it means that there is a problem. And we saw that problem when he played here. And the guy came in saying how he was going to show that he still has it and all......I mean, the opposite is right. Everytime there's a trade, you can't really assess a player's production right away 'cause you know that most of it is based on the fact that it's a new place, and the new guy wants to impress and all. But playing as bad as he did? That has to be a big question mark. But I agree that we should give Therrien a chance to make that experiment work.

The reality of it all is that we shouldn't do anything this year.......yet. The sooner I see a change would be at trade deadline day or around. Our players might be more interesting to some teams if they have ok seasons. For some of our players, the money won't be as problematic based on money and/or term. And mind you, I also have that draft in mind who will be incredible if we happen to suck again based on the lack of average performances of the usual suspects we're talking about. So I don,t see a problem seeing all those guys coming back, knowing that Therrien should have his chance to get them going, understanding that while they might not be interesting now, they could be more interesting later, and that if it means us having an unfortunate bad year....will mean an incredible draft day for future great years to come.

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07-09-2012, 11:04 AM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
And sucked quite prodigiously in those 38 games.

I don't promote sending any of them to the AHL at this point... free agency is essentially over, and we don't have anything else to use the cap space on, so we might as well cross our fingers and hope any or all of them (them = Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle, aka "the undesirable albatross trio") bounce back.

I'm not optimistic about it happening, though. Usually when players suck prodigiously, it's because... they suck prodigiously.
I don't agree. He didn't "suck prodigiously" before coming here. Why are we writing off a player even though he put up back-to-back 30 goal seasons before the trade? After 38 games with a terrible coach on one of the worst teams in the league? I'm not going to argue that Bourque was anything else than awful with us last year. But it's a new year with a new coach and Bourque has been a reliable goal scorer not all that long ago. He absolutely deserves a second chance compared to someone like Gomez. This is just Habs fans throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Not everything that was bad last year has to be written off, thrown out, bought out, sent to the AHL, etc. If we can redeem a guy like Bourque, we'll have a pretty good player on our hands.

I also don't agree with the Kaberle hate. His contract is not good, but he produced at a 0.50 PPG clip with us last year. Regardless of how terrible he may be defensively, as long as he can still put up offensive numbers, he has a place here. He's also playing on a D unit that should have Markov full time, which will insulate him better than he was last year. No reason to throw in the towel just yet.

The only one that absolutely has to go is Gomez, for reasons that shouldn't even need re-hashing. He's the one with the worst contract, the worst performance, and he had the most chances.

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07-09-2012, 12:29 PM
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I don't agree. He didn't "suck prodigiously" before coming here.
I've heard a few Flames fans suggest otherwise, although at least his production was much better before coming here, so that ought to lessen the prodigiousness of it.
Quote:
Why are we writing off a player even though he put up back-to-back 30 goal seasons before the trade?
Are we writing him off? No, I think we're saying, alas, we're kinda stuck with him and kinda stuck with hoping he bounces back, because, alas, we didn't get somebody better/less risky to replace him with. While indeed acknowledging there is a chance he bounces back. There is no "writing off" involved there.
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This is just Habs fans throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Not everything that was bad last year has to be written off, thrown out, bought out, sent to the AHL, etc.
Is it? Or is it just a generalized assumption that that's what Habs fans are saying and a blanket denigration of Habs fans. Most Habs fans have their own targets, and those differ from fan to fan, and in degree, I don't think I have yet read a post from anybody saying "everything that was bad last year has to be written off, thrown out, bought out, sent to the AHL, etc." Link?

Quote:
The only one that absolutely has to go is Gomez, for reasons that shouldn't even need re-hashing. He's the one with the worst contract, the worst performance, and he had the most chances.
Well, it appears as if none of them are going. And I'd rather have Gomez than $7.357M of unused cap space, so count me amongst those who is on board with keeping all of them, including Gomez, at this point. It's a little sad we got to this point, but not actually all that surprising, nor grounds for any indictment of management. Montreal has to be a very hard sell to players atm.

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07-09-2012, 12:42 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I've heard a few Flames fans suggest otherwise, although at least his production was much better before coming here, so that ought to lessen the prodigiousness of it.

Are we writing him off? No, I think we're saying, alas, we're kinda stuck with him and kinda stuck with hoping he bounces back, because, alas, we didn't get somebody better/less risky to replace him with. While indeed acknowledging there is a chance he bounces back. There is no "writing off" involved there.

Is it? Or is it just a generalized assumption that that's what Habs fans are saying and a blanket denigration of Habs fans. Most Habs fans have their own targets, and those differ from fan to fan, and in degree, I don't think I have yet read a post from anybody saying "everything that was bad last year has to be written off, thrown out, bought out, sent to the AHL, etc." Link?
Okay so I used your post as a jumping-off point to make some generalizations, so what

Long story short, like I said before, I think Bourque and Kaberle are in another stratosphere from Gomez and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

Quote:
Well, it appears as if none of them are going. And I'd rather have Gomez than $7.357M of unused cap space, so count me amongst those who is on board with keeping all of them, including Gomez, at this point. It's a little sad we got to this point, but not actually all that surprising, nor grounds for any indictment of management. Montreal has to be a very hard sell to players atm.
I hear you regarding the Gomez vs. useless cap space thing, but I'm not sure I agree. We may not be able to rush out and spend Gomez's money on a Gaborik the way the Rangers did, but to me sending him to the AHL would at least stress accountability. The Rangers probably didn't have to send Redden to the AHL, but they did, and it at least sent notice to anyone currently on the roster and any big name free agents to come in the future that if you don't earn your keep, you're going to be dealt with whether you're making big money or the league minimum. Maybe the Rangers, being a prime free agent destination from now until the end of times, have that luxury whereas we have to be a bit more delicate...it's arguable. But right now we look like a franchise that doesn't care about accountability or standards. We'll let a guy like Gomez bleed us for $7.4m because, hey, we got nothing better to do with the money. I'd rather take the dead cap space by ditching Gomez and promote a guy like Leblanc or Dumont who I know is going to work his ass off to stay here. But of course, it's not my money either.

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07-09-2012, 12:51 PM
  #367
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I hear you regarding the Gomez vs. useless cap space thing, but I'm not sure I agree. We may not be able to rush out and spend Gomez's money on a Gaborik the way the Rangers did, but to me sending him to the AHL would at least stress accountability. The Rangers probably didn't have to send Redden to the AHL, but they did, and it at least sent notice to anyone currently on the roster and any big name free agents to come in the future that if you don't earn your keep, you're going to be dealt with whether you're making big money or the league minimum.
The Rangers did have to send Redden to the ahl because they would have been over the cap otherwise. The general consensus iirc was that if he was on league minimum he would have been a serviceable 6/7 dman.

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07-09-2012, 01:02 PM
  #368
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Okay so I used your post as a jumping-off point to make some generalizations, so what

Long story short, like I said before, I think Bourque and Kaberle are in another stratosphere from Gomez and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.
.
this is true, but the problem (like with Gomez at the time we acquired him), is that both guys are 30+, both have been trending sharply downward.

neither are "must remove" players (short of us having been in the Suter/Parise lottery and needing that cap space), but it's very possible that they will both be even harder to move 12 months from now than they are today.

Kaberle probably less so, b/c (fingers crossed) he should still be able to rack up PP points, and with only 1 year left after this one, some offense-starved cap floor team willing to take him on should be still possible even if he has another year where his defensive play & 5-on-5 reliability are as brutal as they were this past season.

Bourque, on the other hand, puts us in the "Finger" territory should he continue to regress. 3 years left on the contract after this season, if he doesn't turn it around in a serious way, burying him for the remaining 3 years may become the only option (short of the buy-out, which is even worse).

My point being that both players should be moved if any deal comes on the table that doesn't involve either taking a worse contract back, or giving up quality picks/prospects to close the deal.

Not quite Gomez-level, but just because they aren't the absolute worst contract in the league doesn't mean we should hang on to them!

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07-09-2012, 01:08 PM
  #369
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In an ideal World, Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle and even Gionta would be dealt before the beginning of next season... But reality is that they all probably be in the starting line up next October.

If we could get two solid wingers (between 25 and 32) for Plekky for these four, I would be as thrilled as the next guy.
Gionta ? OMG they have gone nuts Batman.

I am curious and not suggesting anything here, but if his name was Pierre Giontelle from Quebec city would you be ok with our captain ?

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07-09-2012, 01:14 PM
  #370
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this is true, but the problem (like with Gomez at the time we acquired him), is that both guys are 30+, both have been trending sharply downward.

neither are "must remove" players (short of us having been in the Suter/Parise lottery and needing that cap space), but it's very possible that they will both be even harder to move 12 months from now than they are today.

Kaberle probably less so, b/c (fingers crossed) he should still be able to rack up PP points, and with only 1 year left after this one, some offense-starved cap floor team willing to take him on should be still possible even if he has another year where his defensive play & 5-on-5 reliability are as brutal as they were this past season.

Bourque, on the other hand, puts us in the "Finger" territory should he continue to regress. 3 years left on the contract after this season, if he doesn't turn it around in a serious way, burying him for the remaining 3 years may become the only option (short of the buy-out, which is even worse).

My point being that both players should be moved if any deal comes on the table that doesn't involve either taking a worse contract back, or giving up quality picks/prospects to close the deal.

Not quite Gomez-level, but just because they aren't the absolute worst contract in the league doesn't mean we should hang on to them!
Do you Honestly think any GM is calling up MB and asking for Bourque or Kaberle? I think not. WOuld be great to get rid of both but I cant see it happening. As long as Gomez is gone, Im personally ok with keeping those 2.

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07-09-2012, 01:18 PM
  #371
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I think he's worn out his welcome but if he were to turn things around he would need to change things in his game.

-Be in better shape than others... He's older, he probably has a split second less reaction time than when he was in his prime. Because his game was strictly based on speed and little on power and muscle that's alot.

-The classic "pay the price in front of the net", go and fight for rebounds in the lower slot and lip of the crease. I know it gets alot harder to lose teeth and **** up your face when you make megamillions...

-Shoot alot more.

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07-09-2012, 01:40 PM
  #372
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Do you Honestly think any GM is calling up MB and asking for Bourque or Kaberle? I think not. WOuld be great to get rid of both but I cant see it happening. As long as Gomez is gone, Im personally ok with keeping those 2.
with so many teams in the Parise/Suter sweepstake, and now lining up to chase Nash/Semin (and no dmen left on the market to pursue), I do think that over the next few weeks there will be some GM's who look at their roster/cap space, and view Kaberle/Bourque as adequate low cost (in terms of acquiring and comparative cap hits to the guys they were initially making room for) alternatives.

For the same reason that it's not a terrible thing if we start the year with them, I could see other GM's being willing to part with enough to make it resonable for us to move them.


I view Weber/Diaz (with St-Denis and perhaps Beaulieu, not to mention the healthy return of Markov) as giving us enough depth in the "offensive-minded dman" role that starting the season without Kaberle won't make us that much worse... moving his 2yrs/4.25M$ isn't a necessity, but that considerable extra wiggle room could be a huge bonus in season if one of the elite UFA's-to-be ends up on the trade market.

Bourque, in theory gives us an asset that we both need and lack depth (top-6/9 scoring winger), but with how he played the last ~18months (it's a mistake to think he was just bad once he got to MTL, he had a terrible start to the year, which came after a very up/down 2010-11), in practice he's barely an everyday NHL-caliber top-9 player.
Palushaj, Leblanc, and Gallgagher should all challenge him for a roster spot this fall. We have 2 holes in our top-9, wouldn't be surprised in the least if 2 young players beat him out for that job.

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07-09-2012, 04:11 PM
  #373
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He scored only 9 goals in his last 125 games. Honestly I do think he's done. But Montreal does boast an anemic offense, only producing 2.52 goals per game last year. I really hope they do send him to the minors to free up some cap space in order to acquire a top 6 forward, otherwise it might be another long season for the Habs

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07-09-2012, 04:32 PM
  #374
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Let's be honest, Gomez has never even really had a real second chance yet, say what you like but that is the truth .

Darche and Poulliot as wingers on the top lines,or playing 4th line with Aaron Palushaj isn't a second chance , sorry.
Any team to bring in a 7 million player to play 600.000 dollar wingers with him is dumb.

Gomez will shut up haters, this year.

Martin's system is gone ,no size and toughness is gone .

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07-09-2012, 04:58 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
with so many teams in the Parise/Suter sweepstake, and now lining up to chase Nash/Semin (and no dmen left on the market to pursue), I do think that over the next few weeks there will be some GM's who look at their roster/cap space, and view Kaberle/Bourque as adequate low cost (in terms of acquiring and comparative cap hits to the guys they were initially making room for) alternatives.

For the same reason that it's not a terrible thing if we start the year with them, I could see other GM's being willing to part with enough to make it resonable for us to move them.


I view Weber/Diaz (with St-Denis and perhaps Beaulieu, not to mention the healthy return of Markov) as giving us enough depth in the "offensive-minded dman" role that starting the season without Kaberle won't make us that much worse... moving his 2yrs/4.25M$ isn't a necessity, but that considerable extra wiggle room could be a huge bonus in season if one of the elite UFA's-to-be ends up on the trade market.

Bourque, in theory gives us an asset that we both need and lack depth (top-6/9 scoring winger), but with how he played the last ~18months (it's a mistake to think he was just bad once he got to MTL, he had a terrible start to the year, which came after a very up/down 2010-11), in practice he's barely an everyday NHL-caliber top-9 player.
Palushaj, Leblanc, and Gallgagher should all challenge him for a roster spot this fall. We have 2 holes in our top-9, wouldn't be surprised in the least if 2 young players beat him out for that job.
Well thought out.

The overriding factor should be the long-term plan for the team. If Bourque, Kaberle and Gomez aren't in the long-term plans that the Hab's management has then if the opportunity presents itself to trade them we should.

When Bergevin or one of his assistants says that we should have patience and let the contracts run their course, if we can expedite the matter we should.

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