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Free Agent Frenzy (Part VIII): Still no decision with Doan

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Old
07-09-2012, 03:37 PM
  #701
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I could live with Rozy depending on the cost.

Would he want to come back is the bigger question.

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Old
07-09-2012, 03:37 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
The people who would complain about Rozi now are the same ones that complained about him before. Only thing is now he might be a bit cheaper and second he doesn't have Jagr to feed the puck to he might actually take a shot from the point.
He didn't have Jagr for two seasons. Didn't change anything, guy doesn't shoot period. If anything he shot more when Jagr was QBing the PP.

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07-09-2012, 03:38 PM
  #703
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I think many people in here are discrediting the potential impact adding a player like Nash could have on this team based on past statistics, and I gotta say I really disagree with that.

Baseball scouts and executives famously classify players based on "5 tools" - speed, throwing, fielding, hitting for avg, and hitting for power. In a simplified way, I'm going to use this framework to talk about hockey.

A player like Gaborik has obviously been very successful for us from a statistical standpoint. When you break down his game, it is clear that he really has 2 elite tools (and by elite I mean top 5 in the game) - his release and his speed (top end and acceleration). Literally Gabby is good enough at these two facets of the game to produce at the rate he has which is ridiculously impressive.

Obviously his physical play and defensive tools are lacking - which you can live with for a top line player. However what really separates Gaborik from being a consistent difference maker (especially no matter what defense he is facing) are that his abilities to skate with the puck in the transition game, and create space in the offensive zone with his hands/vision (rather than his speed) are lacking. That's not to say he's BAD, but he's not elite either.

Now take Rick Nash. While he is close, he does not have any tools that are nearly as good as Gabby's best tools. However, I would argue that he is at least at a top 10-20 level for just about ALL off the offensive tools (shot release/accuracy, hands, transition game, ability to work the puck in the offensive zone, speed) and mediocre to good at the others (shot power, defensive play, physical play). He's a much more well-rounded hockey player.

So - what is my point? My point is that if Rick Nash were just a touch better overall (taking a tool or two to ELITE status) he would be pretty decisively a top 5-10 forward in the league. The question is, can he get there in a better environment and surrounded by better players? Sidenote: I think we should NOT underestimate the impact that being a part of a WINNING organization will have, huge confidence boost and motivating factor.

For the stat gurus out there, in my opinion I could easily see him hitting the 40-30 mark playing with Richards and Callahan. Perhaps more importantly, for what it's worth, I believe a well-rounded player is much more likely to be able to pick things up when the going gets tough (in the playoffs). Obviously Gabby was hurt this year but I think we have all seen to some extent how he can have difficulty in tighter games when the ability to use his 2 elite tools is limited.

Nash definitely does not have the paper stats to back up my point, but in hockey so much depends on projections and game translation - more than in any other sport. This is my attempt to do that.

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07-09-2012, 03:39 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
stepan + mdz is overpayment and dubi is in any deal and all three is MASSIVE overpayment
Thanks for feedback. However, my actual proposal was:

"Maybe Stepan, MDZ, Ranger 2nd round pick
for
Nash + CBJ 1st round pick..."

I made no mention of Dubi, I believe Chicago wants him, they won't pay crazy, but I believe they will pay decent, i.e., Olsen or McNeil for him.

My point was if we budged partly on what we gave up, could we not recover it and then some with a CBJ 1st?

By expanding this deal, everybody saves face, yes?

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07-09-2012, 03:42 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
He didn't have Jagr for two seasons. Didn't change anything, guy doesn't shoot period. If anything he shot more when Jagr was QBing the PP.
Thanks, slipped my mind. Well clearly he was still looking for Jagr.

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07-09-2012, 03:43 PM
  #706
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Roszival will go to Detroit to re-unite with Renney or he'll go to Dallas to stay West and play with his buddy Jagr.

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07-09-2012, 03:44 PM
  #707
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Oh man a steak would be great right about now. But seriously what happened to the good ole HF spirit of degrading people and their ideas. This offseason was more fun yesterday.

To keep it somewhat on topic I certainly wouldn't cringe at Rozi coming back.
I regret to say I vaguely resemble that remark, and then some.
By being a rebel with a cause, I have single handedly attracted most of the degrading comments..

I'll try to be a little more milquetoast, just for a while, so I won't be hogging all those sneers, jeers, and degrades...

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07-09-2012, 03:46 PM
  #708
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Please no more Roszival.

Also I have nothing vs. either Doan or Downey or anyone else who's veteran but taking on a 35+ age contract, meaning anything goes wrong we are SCREWED, is not worth it.

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07-09-2012, 03:46 PM
  #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I think many people in here are discrediting the potential impact adding a player like Nash could have on this team based on past statistics, and I gotta say I really disagree with that.

Baseball scouts and executives famously classify players based on "5 tools" - speed, throwing, fielding, hitting for avg, and hitting for power. In a simplified way, I'm going to use this framework to talk about hockey.

A player like Gaborik has obviously been very successful for us from a statistical standpoint. When you break down his game, it is clear that he really has 2 elite tools (and by elite I mean top 5 in the game) - his release and his speed (top end and acceleration). Literally Gabby is good enough at these two facets of the game to produce at the rate he has which is ridiculously impressive.

Obviously his physical play and defensive tools are lacking - which you can live with for a top line player. However what really separates Gaborik from being a consistent difference maker (especially no matter what defense he is facing) are that his abilities to skate with the puck in the transition game, and create space in the offensive zone with his hands/vision (rather than his speed) are lacking. That's not to say he's BAD, but he's not elite either.

Now take Rick Nash. While he is close, he does not have any tools that are nearly as good as Gabby's best tools. However, I would argue that he is at least at a top 10-20 level for just about ALL off the offensive tools (shot release/accuracy, hands, transition game, ability to work the puck in the offensive zone, speed) and mediocre to good at the others (shot power, defensive play, physical play). He's a much more well-rounded hockey player.

So - what is my point? My point is that if Rick Nash were just a touch better overall (taking a tool or two to ELITE status) he would be pretty decisively a top 5-10 forward in the league. The question is, can he get there in a better environment and surrounded by better players? Sidenote: I think we should NOT underestimate the impact that being a part of a WINNING organization will have, huge confidence boost and motivating factor.

For the stat gurus out there, in my opinion I could easily see him hitting the 40-30 mark playing with Richards and Callahan. Perhaps more importantly, for what it's worth, I believe a well-rounded player is much more likely to be able to pick things up when the going gets tough (in the playoffs). Obviously Gabby was hurt this year but I think we have all seen to some extent how he can have difficulty in tighter games when the ability to use his 2 elite tools is limited.

Nash definitely does not have the paper stats to back up my point, but in hockey so much depends on projections and game translation - more than in any other sport. This is my attempt to do that.
But are they? If we add Nash while losing only say Dubinsky from the current roster, this team is a pretty strong contender. I think those of us that are against trading for him don't like his cap hit or the fact that it could cost more assets than we are comfortable parting with. But no doubt, Nash is a very good player and our offense would be a whole lot scarier if we had him, Gaborik, Richards and Kreider in the top 6.

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07-09-2012, 03:48 PM
  #710
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But are they? If we add Nash while losing only say Dubinsky from the current roster, this team is a pretty strong contender. I think those of us that are against trading for him don't like his cap hit or the fact that it could cost more assets than we are comfortable parting with. But no doubt, Nash is a very good player and our offense would be a whole lot scarier if we had him, Gaborik, Richards and Kreider in the top 6.
As much as I like Nash I 100% agree that it has to be on Sather's terms or you walk away.

I was responding to the "Nash is overrated" and "60 point declining player" posts.

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Old
07-09-2012, 03:52 PM
  #711
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Rozsival was very steady in Phoenix last year. You could do a lot worse. (I got my head taken off my sholders three months ago when I first suggested that here)


Last edited by bobbop: 07-09-2012 at 04:02 PM.
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07-09-2012, 03:55 PM
  #712
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Gotta love the people bashing Rozsival without referencing that fact that he'd only come here as a cheap veteran presence. Playing the 3rd pairing (2nd pair in a pinch) and a right handed shot to boot; its just what the doctor ordered. Too many people remember the overpaid guy that was forced to be a 1st pairing defenseman for several years and still did an admirable job despite being overmatched.

1. McDonagh
2. Girardi
3. Staal
4. Del Zotto
5. Stralman
6. Rozsival
7. Bickel

sounds great to me. 3 RH and 3 LH in the top 6 - nice balance.

Maybe Erixon steals a spot, but he'd have to get SIGNIFICANTLY stronger over the summer in order to do so.

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07-09-2012, 03:57 PM
  #713
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For those who want to shift gears to CA for a bit:

WERE IT DO-ABLE, no NMC issues, etc,, as to value,
Would we want to do something based around Stepan + Richards for Getzlaf + Perry?

Please advise why yes or no, and if yes, what needs be added either side...

Thanks.

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07-09-2012, 04:02 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
For those who want to shift gears to CA for a bit:

WERE IT DO-ABLE, no NMC issues, etc,, as to value,
Would we want to do something based around Stepan + Richards for Getzlaf + Perry?

Please advise why yes or no, and if yes, what needs be added either side...

Thanks.
Yes, if we can get these two signed long term. But it is completely unreasonable.

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07-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
For those who want to shift gears to CA for a bit:

WERE IT DO-ABLE, no NMC issues, etc,, as to value,
Would we want to do something based around Stepan + Richards for Getzlaf + Perry?

Please advise why yes or no, and if yes, what needs be added either side...

Thanks.
Why bother discussing a ridiculously implausible scenario like that?

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07-09-2012, 04:05 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Thanks for feedback. However, my actual proposal was:

"Maybe Stepan, MDZ, Ranger 2nd round pick
for
Nash + CBJ 1st round pick..."

I made no mention of Dubi, I believe Chicago wants him, they won't pay crazy, but I believe they will pay decent, i.e., Olsen or McNeil for him.

My point was if we budged partly on what we gave up, could we not recover it and then some with a CBJ 1st?






By expanding this deal, everybody saves face, yes?
A CBJ number 1 pick will probably be a top 5 pick in the draft? Could possibly be the number 1?

My guess is that you'll have to throw Kreider in the deal as well to get the number 1 ? It still might not be enough.

A CBJ 2nd round pick might the be equivalent to a Ranger 1st round pick?

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07-09-2012, 04:07 PM
  #717
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Why bother discussing a ridiculously implausible scenario like that?
why bother discussing anything at all? nothing happens either way. it's just speculating and entertainment.

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07-09-2012, 04:12 PM
  #718
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A brief Doan update -- the group seeking signatures to put the Glendale Arena deal on the ballot will not turn in signatures today on the city mandated deadline. They (the group) feels that they should have 8 additional days to file petitions.

The Glendale City Attorney has indicated that if petitions are not turned in today the City will move foreward with the Greg Jamison deal.

This is good news for AZ hockey fans. It also may well take Doan out of play.

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07-09-2012, 04:15 PM
  #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
A brief Doan update -- the group seeking signatures to put the Glendale Arena deal on the ballot will not turn in signatures today on the city mandated deadline. They (the group) feels that they should have 8 additional days to file petitions.

The Glendale City Attorney has indicated that if petitions are not turned in today the City will move foreward with the Greg Jamison deal.

This is good news for AZ hockey fans. It also may well take Doan out of play.
Lazy activists? Shocking.

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07-09-2012, 04:15 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
For those who want to shift gears to CA for a bit:

WERE IT DO-ABLE, no NMC issues, etc,, as to value,
Would we want to do something based around Stepan + Richards for Getzlaf + Perry?

Please advise why yes or no, and if yes, what needs be added either side...

Thanks.
That is heavily, heavily in the Rangers' favor. No way in hell anaheim would do that.

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Old
07-09-2012, 04:15 PM
  #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
For those who want to shift gears to CA for a bit:

WERE IT DO-ABLE, no NMC issues, etc,, as to value,
Would we want to do something based around Stepan + Richards for Getzlaf + Perry?

Please advise why yes or no, and if yes, what needs be added either side...

Thanks.
Tough pill to swallow, while I like Getzlaf and Perry we still wouldn't have a 2nd line center and we lose two very similar playmaking centers. Plus we'd have to add.

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07-09-2012, 04:21 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
A brief Doan update -- the group seeking signatures to put the Glendale Arena deal on the ballot will not turn in signatures today on the city mandated deadline. They (the group) feels that they should have 8 additional days to file petitions.

The Glendale City Attorney has indicated that if petitions are not turned in today the City will move foreward with the Greg Jamison deal.

This is good news for AZ hockey fans. It also may well take Doan out of play.
Yep, looking like Doan is not leaving Phoenix. Well I expect things should get interesting this week.

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07-09-2012, 04:22 PM
  #723
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In an ideal situation Rozsival is a second pairing, maybe even a third pairing guy on a deep blueline. The problem was that he was part of the transition team that bought time for this team to draft and/or develop guys like Staal, McD, Del Zotto, etc.

As such, between that and his chemistry with Jagr, we also had to pay him more than he was worth. Coupled with the fact that fans wanted to see their homegrown kids take on bigger roles (and felt that was only going to happen with him moved), and his declining production, it made a somewhat unfair situation for Rozsy.
That was my gripe with Rozy, if you can even call it that. He was a solid 2nd pairing guy who was put in a top-pairing role. He wasn't bad in that spot, but you could clearly see he wasn't quite there. If he was a depth option, I certainly wouldn't mind it. However, I think he might think twice about returning to NY given how he was treated here.

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07-09-2012, 04:23 PM
  #724
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That was my gripe with Rozy, if you can even call it that. He was a solid 2nd pairing guy who was put in a top-pairing role. He wasn't bad in that spot, but you could clearly see he wasn't quite there. If he was a depth option, I certainly wouldn't mind it. However, I think he might think twice about returning to NY given how he was treated here.
Probably, and thats a damn shame to be honest.

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07-09-2012, 04:27 PM
  #725
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Now that his contract is done, curious to see what the Canucks do with Mason Raymond.

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