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Montreal: worst in the NHL for taxes deducted.

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Old
07-09-2012, 03:40 PM
  #26
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The cost of living in Montreal is extremely high compared to some other cities too.

I live in Columbus. You can have a spectacular home here, at a great location, for half a million dollars.

Try finding that price in Westmount.
Westmount isn't a great location, it's like the priciest area in Mtl. You can find somethings for 500K in Westmount but it won't be spectacular.
Go outside a bit, to where most players live in Candiac, which is next to their training center, and you can get an amazing house for about 500K too.

But there's more to cost of living than just real estate. Groceries, school, restaurants, etc are very affordable in Mtl.

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07-09-2012, 03:49 PM
  #27
WhiskeySeven
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lolwut? from the latest news it appears that we were Jagr's first choice but weren't interested.
We weren't interested north of 3.5m and Jagr wanted more.

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Old
07-09-2012, 03:53 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Westmount isn't a great location,
Huge homes, huge land, quiet streets, 5 minute drive from downtown.

how is that not a great location?

Quote:
But there's more to cost of living than just real estate. Groceries, school, restaurants, etc are very affordable in Mtl.
cost of education (for their children), the price of groceries, restaurants, means absolutely nothing to an NHL player...

'' Sweety, what do you think of taking the 3 year , 9 million dollars in Montreal...''

'' Well, it's perfect, but we can save so much on food if we live in Columbus. That cheddar you like dear is 10$ more easily... and don't get me started on fish, meats and poultry prices''

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07-09-2012, 04:01 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Meh.

New York has high taxes too, players still go there IIRC.

Also, the cost of living is much low here. Housing is much cheaper, schooling as well.

Bottom line, we don't attract top UFA's because we haven't won **** in years. Start winning and UFA's will come.
Not having a winning team, or winning "culture" of late has definitely played a huge factor.

Language/media/pressure to deliver is another factor. You can dance around the language issue all you want.. Yes, once can be a Anglophone and live in Montreal and get by, but it's not always *easy* and with the way the French media gets portrayed by the English media outside of the country, it makes Montreal look like a pressure cooker for Anglophone players and especially those who don't live up to expectations.

On the non-language front, people in this city are so absolutely stupid about hockey you could see Players kids get picked on in school if the team or their dad isn't playing well, since almost everyone is a fan to some degree here. Their wives could get heckled out on the street. Players *HAVE* got heckled on the street.

Anyone can come here and try to rebut this post, but I actually have first hand information from some players in the league and that once played in the league, and this is the general perception of the market here: The people/media can be your best friends, but they can also be ape-**** crazy. Some people aren't cut out for that kind of pressure-cooker environment, others thrive in it. Others think they can, and fizzle out here. It's not a coincidence that a lot of players don't pan out in this town and end up better elsewhere, it's not always player development or coaching issues. It's psychological.

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07-09-2012, 04:05 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Huge homes, huge land, quiet streets, 5 minute drive from downtown.

how is that not a great location?



cost of education (for their children), the price of groceries, restaurants, means absolutely nothing to an NHL player...

'' Sweety, what do you think of taking the 3 year , 9 million dollars in Montreal...''

'' Well, it's perfect, but we can save so much on food if we live in Columbus. That cheddar you like dear is 10$ more easily... and don't get me started on fish, meats and poultry prices''
I have been to Cowlumbus. I would pick Montreal even if all the costs were more.

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07-09-2012, 04:16 PM
  #31
Neutrino
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
That wouldn't work since taxable income includes many types of inclusions and deductions. It would be a headache to start apply tax law to the CBA.
Why exactly ?

I understand the concern but it is possible to consider the average salary after taxes and deductions as the cap hit, a good move towards putting every team at equal level (one small step and yadi yada)...

Some teams like the Habs would have more real money spent but the salary is still the same...

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Old
07-09-2012, 04:30 PM
  #32
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Worst?! Oh yeah I forgot, taxes are a bad thing.

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07-09-2012, 04:32 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Aspirine View Post
Worst?! Oh yeah I forgot, taxes are a bad thing.
Worst from the POV of the habs who must sign players and compete against other teams.

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07-09-2012, 04:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Aspirine View Post
Worst?! Oh yeah I forgot, taxes are a bad thing.
They aren't good or bad, only necessary to the function of a state. Where people differ on where the top nominal tax rate ought to be fluctuates with several variables from person to person.

Ie. what you think the government ought to be doing, whether you even pay any taxes or not etc etc.

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07-09-2012, 04:45 PM
  #35
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I know a tax lawyer who represents pro athletes (not hockey) and he says these articles don't take into account the fact that NONE of the pro hockey players are forced to declare Quebec as their primary residence. Their overall taxes are still higher if they play for Montreal than if they play for Dallas, but if they LIVE in Dallas off season, the difference is mitigated quite a bit. For tax purposes, all travel days to OR from Quebec can be counted as days outside the province so even with a long season, the total days an athlete has to officially spend in Quebec is relatively low, well under the half-year it takes to qualify as a resident (and get a Medicare card, taxes are a two way street, after all.)

The assumption that athletes are paying Quebec tax on their full salary is simply not the case, except for those few who live in Quebec off-season too. I work in Ontario all the time, but I live in Quebec so I have to pay full Quebec taxes, the tax rate of where I earned the money doesn't really affect me cause I'm not resident there. If the situation were reversed, like it is for hockey players, I wouldn't have to pay full Quebec income tax because I wouldn't live here.


Last edited by Bullsmith: 07-09-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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07-09-2012, 04:50 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Huge homes, huge land, quiet streets, 5 minute drive from downtown.

how is that not a great location?



cost of education (for their children), the price of groceries, restaurants, means absolutely nothing to an NHL player...

'' Sweety, what do you think of taking the 3 year , 9 million dollars in Montreal...''

'' Well, it's perfect, but we can save so much on food if we live in Columbus. That cheddar you like dear is 10$ more easily... and don't get me started on fish, meats and poultry prices''
I thought it was pretty clear that my point was that Westmount is more than just a great location.

And yes, that's what I meant, players will consider the price of cheese, or pasta, or an apple..

Whether you don't care about those things or not, they do fall under "cost of life". It's not just about real estate. That's what I was saying. Not sure what your point was really...

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07-09-2012, 04:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
I know a tax lawyer who represents pro athletes (not hockey) and he says these articles don't take into account the fact that NONE of the pro hockey players are forced to declare Quebec as their primary residence. Their overall taxes are still higher if they play for Montreal than if they play for Dallas, but if they LIVE in Dallas off season, the difference is mitigated quite a bit. For tax purposes, all travel days to OR from Quebec can be counted as days outside the province so even with a long season, the total days an athlete has to officially spend in Quebec is relatively low, well under the half-year it takes to qualify as a resident (and get a Medicare card, taxes are a two way street, after all.)

The assumption that athletes are paying Quebec tax on their full salary is simply not the case, except for those few who live in Quebec off-season too. I work in Ontario all the time, but I live in Quebec so I have to pay full Quebec taxes, the tax rate of where I earned the money doesn't really affect me cause I'm not resident there. If the situation were reversed, like it is for hockey players, I wouldn't have to pay full Quebec income tax because I wouldn't live here.
I've been using this argument for years and everyone who hears it just has a dumb look on their face as though I was explaining the Higgs boson to them.

The tax argument is baseless but there are more taxes in general in Montreal (GST, the ridiculously high PST, school and property tax, etc) but I think they're worth it for having the lifestyle that Montreal offers.

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07-09-2012, 05:01 PM
  #38
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If wonder if the Habs could create of kind of trust for this...

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07-09-2012, 05:20 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
I think you're under valuing Montreal... it's the Paris of North America, it's easily top 5 in North America in terms of relevant cities (especially if you're under 25). Add to that the history of the Habs I think it would be a tougher decision than you try and make it out to be.
MTL is objectively less good than NYC. We're a great city, better than most, but not Manhattan.

Also, guaranteed players don't pay all their taxes. Imagine a guy like Gomez getting traded here? He'd be losing 500 000 just like that.

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07-09-2012, 05:25 PM
  #40
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As a fan of the Montreal Canadiens, this actually makes me quite proud.

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07-09-2012, 05:25 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
MTL is objectively less good than NYC. We're a great city, better than most, but not Manhattan.

Also, guaranteed players don't pay all their taxes. Imagine a guy like Gomez getting traded here? He'd be losing 500 000 just like that.
The word here is, by definition, "subjectively".

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07-09-2012, 05:29 PM
  #42
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If taxes really mattered all that much, then why aren't all the players lining up to play in Florida, T-Bay and Dallas?

As mentioned by others, the other thing this study fails to take into account is the cost-of-living. The cost of living in NYC, Toronto, LA, Vancouver are all way higher than Montreal. In the end, in Mtl a player might pay more taxes but he can afford a house/condo at a much more reasonable price.

Ultimately, good players will choose a winning team over factors such as taxes.

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07-09-2012, 05:31 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Gros Bill View Post
OTOH, cost of living is lower in MTL compraed to other cities (house, schools, etc.), isn't it?
People never seem to think about this. New York is probably the worst. They have high taxes and the cost of living is extremely high.

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07-09-2012, 05:35 PM
  #44
Jack Bourdain
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
As much as it seems unfair, the taxes they pay is the price for having the privilege of living in such a wonderful city. Though behind NYC, no other city comes close to the culture, lifestyle, SAFETY, passion, and general attractiveness of Montreal. They pay the taxes to get to live here, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Jagr going for 4.55 in Dallas is just a poor reflection on him, he's joining a terrible club run by a terrible GM with no prospects of future success on top of going to a boring city in a boring state. Can you imagine seeing a quarter of the restaurants and cool bars we have in Montreal in ****ing Dallas? Pfft.
You've obviously never been to Dallas. Texas is probably one of my favorite states in America. Yes there are ignorant people (like any other city), but the people are generally laid back and the food amazing.

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07-09-2012, 05:36 PM
  #45
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People never seem to think about this. New York is probably the worst. They have high taxes and the cost of living is extremely high.
For sure. Most players playing for the Rangers probably can't even afford to live in Manhattan and those that do probably have surprisingly small condos/apartments.

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07-09-2012, 05:44 PM
  #46
Jack Bourdain
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Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
Why exactly ?

I understand the concern but it is possible to consider the average salary after taxes and deductions as the cap hit, a good move towards putting every team at equal level (one small step and yadi yada)...

Some teams like the Habs would have more real money spent but the salary is still the same...
Tax legislation is revised on a yearly basis. Tax accountants are specialized in manipulating your finances in order to declare the least taxes possible. Averages don't really mean much, as when you have capital gains/losses and retirements savings plan and other arrangements, you can be paying 10,000$ in tax one year and 50,000$ in the next (random numbers, but the point is that taxes are never the same from one year to another, especially if you are making millions like hockey players).

Anyways I don't want to get too technical, there's a reason why I decided not to specialize in taxes as an accountant, I'm quite content with Auditing.

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Old
07-09-2012, 05:57 PM
  #47
coolasprICE
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I thought it was pretty clear that my point was that Westmount is more than just a great location.
umm, you wrote:

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Westmount isn't a great location, it's like the priciest area in Mtl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
And yes, that's what I meant, players will consider the price of cheese, or pasta, or an apple..
No, they won't. The price differences in food is insignificant to millionaires. It's significant to ''regular'' people. Not rich people.

Even if groceries were 3 times more than in Cowumbus or Pissburgh, it's insignificant.

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07-09-2012, 06:17 PM
  #48
Jack Bourdain
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Also you can't pay taxes on money you don't earn.

In the same trail of thought, if your salary is 12M+ (like Parise and Suter), you pay taxes on that, and not your cap hit of 7.xxM. Thus since the salary distribution is different every year, and thus the taxes deductible is different every year, it'll be a different caphit annually. Makes the life of a GM more miserable all around.

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07-09-2012, 06:21 PM
  #49
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call me back when a depth D-men gets endorsment deals playing for the Panthers.


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07-09-2012, 06:59 PM
  #50
WhiskeySeven
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
You've obviously never been to Dallas. Texas is probably one of my favorite states in America. Yes there are ignorant people (like any other city), but the people are generally laid back and the food amazing.
I have family in Dallas. Texas is an authoritarian state with cruel and corrupt government, sprawled out concrete cities like Houston and Dallas and a harsh climate.

I'm not talking about the people which are obviously not as ignorant or racist as they're portrayed in the media. There are good people everywhere, it's like saying "yeah I know that chick's ugly but she's really nice" - being nice isn't a draw, it's a prerequisite.

Montreal also has phenomenal food, a great mix of cultures, much more decent weather and it's the best hockey market in the world. When the organization keeps winning and has attractive hockey, we can draw all sorts of players.

In my opinion, in terms of overall culture vs. safety vs. lifestyle vs. weather vs. "sexyness" Montreal is #2 in North America behind NYC.

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