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[OTT/CBJ] Nick Foligno for Marc Methot Part II

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Old
07-08-2012, 10:05 PM
  #101
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We can still win from this deal, even if Foligno gets 45 points playing in Columbus' top six and Methot gets 20 points playing on our third pairing. Money was a big part of it, but we can win hockey-wise as well.

I think the assumptions on Murray's part are that we have a lot of promising young forwards challenging for NHL spots, and that offering Kuba $8 million over two years (with a NMC!) seemed a less good option than trading for Methot's more cost-efficient contract. Just look at all the forwards we have ranked ahead of O'Brien in the prospect polls! There is a strong chance at least one of these players establishes themselves as a 20-30 goal scorer as early as this season. Further, we don't know what went on with Foligno's contract negotiations with the Sens or talks with other free agents (alternatives to acquiring Methot) and the Sens. Maybe we would have kept Foligno and signed one of the UFA alternatives to Methot, but which alternatives do we know were there?

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07-08-2012, 11:37 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by SpezDispenser View Post
I find it an odd reaction from some people. Foligno was a fun player to have on the roster, he hit a ton, had some offense and was a pretty good leader, but in what world is a 6'4", defensive D-man who's actually really fast not worth Nick Foligno?
People got attached to Foligno.

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07-08-2012, 11:41 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
People got attached to Foligno.
It was for good reasons, but not for the offense he brought, he was disappointing in that regards (except this past year). The type of game he plays doesn't make it seem certain he can replicate points as a go to guy.

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07-09-2012, 09:02 AM
  #104
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Truthfully, I would have loved Foligno on the 3rd line for years to come. I think he Smith and whomever could have been a wonderful 3rd line. BUT it's not a loss we can't overcome and we had to move someone and I HIGHLY doubt we were getting anything for Condra, Greening, Butler, O'Brien or Daugavins. One or two of those guys had/has to go to make room. Foligno had the most value so I see why Murray made the move.

Also, while we will miss Foligno's physicality we still have Smith, Neil, Greening, Stone, etc, to fill that void.

Plus, we really needed another defensive dman so Methot does fill a need I guess. I just hope he's a shut down guy, not just a decent defensive guy. Shutdown guys are hard to find, defensive dman are a dime a dozen. Time will tell I guess.

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07-09-2012, 09:44 AM
  #105
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"3rd line, 3rd line, 3rd line"... no really, the history of this team and the league in general means that it would have been (extremely ****ing unlikely that we would have two LW's over 35+ points a season). I mean, you can pretend that your ridiculous opinion doesn't mean that it's extremely unlikely that two 45+ pt LW's will be on the same team (for one of the very few times) since 1917... but that's is silly.

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07-09-2012, 09:53 AM
  #106
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Foligno was so awesome last year that he was mothballed to the forth line on numerous occasions. Move on.

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07-09-2012, 10:19 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Foligno was so awesome last year that he was mothballed to the forth line on numerous occasions. Move on.
Which occasions?

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07-09-2012, 10:34 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Foligno was so awesome last year that he was mothballed to the forth line on numerous occasions. Move on.
Actually that statement is more true than it should be and probably caused a problem.
It was while foligno was playing awesome at 2nd line center (ppg pace over 10 games and dominating physically, controlling the play, etc.) that they made the trade for turris to take over. He was nowhere near as good as foligno was the previous 10 games but they kept him there and foligno got knocked around the bottom 6. If i was him i would have been pissed right off.
He still managed 47 pts!

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07-09-2012, 11:10 AM
  #109
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Foligno produced like a decent second liner last year. None the less I dont imagine many of you can honestly say you were interested in seeing Turris, Alfie and him on our second line to start the year. His actual place on this team going forward was ideally as a third liner.

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07-09-2012, 11:48 AM
  #110
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Foligno on his exit interview for the season was told he needed to step up next season and show he can be a top 6 guy, so obviously Maclean/Murray felt like he wasn't top 6 yet.

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07-09-2012, 11:54 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Also, it's not emotion. If Methot was a legit first pair D, no way would I be sad. I liked Foligno [B]but it wasn't a man crush. I don't know what kind of value he held, but if this was it, he should have been kept.
So you don't know what kind of value Foligno had, but he had to have more than Methot.

My assessment of Methot:
Methot is a big physical stay at home defenceman, that can play 20+ minutes a night. He is a solid top 4 D-man, though I do agree he doesn't have the offensive skills to make him a first pairing guy by conventional standards.

However he is the ideal type of D-man to be paired with Karlsson, which I'm sure made this trade very attractive for the Sens.

My assessment of Foligno:
I am in total agreement with the recent assessment of Nick by media types. While it has been harsh IMO, it has also accurate. Nick does not think the game well, nor does get up and down the ice overly well.

It really isn't a mystery why Nick isn't consistent or didn't have a permanent spot in the Sens' tops six, it is for these reasons.

I do agree Nick is a team guy, played a more physical game under MacLean and had a career year in point production. However I didn't notice Nick for his offensive production on the Turris line, nor did I see him as the defensively aware winger. What Nick brought was physical play, similar to Greening without the speed.

So all the rhetoric and hyperbole aside, the trade from a Sens perspective is simple, a solid 3rd line player for a solid top four defenceman. An area of depth for an area of weakness.

On paper a very good trade for the Sens.

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07-09-2012, 12:03 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Icelevel View Post
Actually that statement is more true than it should be and probably caused a problem.
It was while foligno was playing awesome at 2nd line center (ppg pace over 10 games and dominating physically, controlling the play, etc.) that they made the trade for turris to take over. He was nowhere near as good as foligno was the previous 10 games but they kept him there and foligno got knocked around the bottom 6. If i was him i would have been pissed right off.
He still managed 47 pts!
Murray didn't trade for Turris because Nick was a PPG center on the second line.

Nick didn't get demoted because Turris arrived, the LW job was his for the taking.

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07-09-2012, 12:10 PM
  #113
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This debate is still going? How many total pages now? Foligno is gone. The writing was on the wall for quite some time. He wasnt a Murray guy and considering the Murrays have drafted so many forwards lately, it was just a matter of time. A pretty important piece was brought in in return, so whats everyone all up in arms about? Too many people liked Foligno the person....his quotes...the story about his Mom and the rest of his family...his wife battling an eating disorder. Too many of you became attached to him and have let emotions get in the way. This was a hockey decision, and many think it was a smart one.

I for one am quite interested/excited to see what Methot can do. From everything I've read and a few "hockey people" I've talked to, he could give us a bit of what has been missing on the back end since Volchenkov left: big hits, smart defensive play and a reliable and consistent defender. MUCH NEEDED!!!

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07-09-2012, 12:22 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
"3rd line, 3rd line, 3rd line"... no really, the history of this team and the league in general means that it would have been (extremely ****ing unlikely that we would have two LW's over 35+ points a season). I mean, you can pretend that your ridiculous opinion doesn't mean that it's extremely unlikely that two 45+ pt LW's will be on the same team (for one of the very few times) since 1917... but that's is silly.
LWs with >= 35 pts by season
2012 - 49
2011 - 47
2010 - 48
2009 - 47
2008 - 46
2007 - 47
2006 - 54
2005 - 43

While some teams may have had 3 LW at 35+ pts bring down the numbers (we had 3 but Milan really played RW), it looks like there is enough 35 pts lws to have 2 on 1/2 of all 30 teams. Doesn't seem as rare as your making it out to be.

Just noticed, you put 45 pts the second time, was 35 a typo? The overall point that the LW position is scarce (as far as pts production goes) and we just lost depth there is fair though, but Foligno is not a top end 2nd line lw, so it stands to reason that his production may have partially a product of the system/his circumstances, and thus more easily replicated then historcal standards.

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07-09-2012, 12:28 PM
  #115
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I love that the past ~500 posts have pretty much the same 4 guys just arguing in circles.

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE FOLIGNO/ METHOT TRADE
- We finished 24th in the league in Goals Against, and 21st in PK, mostly because our blueline lacked a legit shutdown guy. Methot is that guy.
- We needed a shutdown guy who also had the speed and mobility to play in Maclean's high-tempo system. Methot is that guy.
- If we'd wanted one of the truly elite shutdown defencemen in the league, you'd better believe that we'd have to pay a HECK of a lot more than just Nick Foligno. We got a guy who is VERY good, and fits the pace at which we play our game (whereas many other shutdown guys either play in a defensive system, or in a system that lacks an emphasis on speed). Methot, while not Chara out there, fits Maclean's system to a tee (in theory).
- Foligno's a nice player, but he's ultimately expendable considering how full our system is of young wingers. The gap between Foligno and Latendresse is WAY less than the gap between Methot and our next best PK/ shutdown defenceman.
- Defencemen, over the last 10 years, have been the most expensive position players to acquire, due to shortage in quality. In contrast to this, wingers have been the cheapest to acquire, due to an overabundance of them in the league.
- The team didn't see Foligno as a top-6 player (so far).
- People who use the "we acquired a defenceman from the league's worst team" argument completely dismiss the factors as to WHY that team finished last: their "star goalie" had a .894sv%, which was 74th in the league. That's not to mention that Mason had a decent last few months of the season... in January, his Sv% was in the .860's. Columbus suffered from a double-whammy of being a bottom-5 team in Goals For, and having some of the worst goaltending of any team in the last decade. Zdeno Chara would have been a minus player for Columbus last year.

I don't know... can I really add anything to that? They are 2 years and 3 months apart in age, which is almost nothing. Filled a need by moving from an area of strength? Check.

I get if Foligno was your favorite player: it sucks, there's a ton of emotional stuff involved. I get it. But strictly from a hockey sense, what else needs to be said, here?

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07-09-2012, 12:30 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohhh Franco View Post
This debate is still going? How many total pages now? Foligno is gone. The writing was on the wall for quite some time. He wasnt a Murray guy and considering the Murrays have drafted so many forwards lately, it was just a matter of time. A pretty important piece was brought in in return, so whats everyone all up in arms about? Too many people liked Foligno the person....his quotes...the story about his Mom and the rest of his family...his wife battling an eating disorder. Too many of you became attached to him and have let emotions get in the way. This was a hockey decision, and many think it was a smart one.

I for one am quite interested/excited to see what Methot can do. From everything I've read and a few "hockey people" I've talked to, he could give us a bit of what has been missing on the back end since Volchenkov left: big hits, smart defensive play and a reliable and consistent defender. MUCH NEEDED!!!
It's rare that I 100% agree with anything Franco says, but there it is: Agreed in full, on every point.

Let's not make a habit of that now though, ok Franco? Haha...

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07-09-2012, 02:58 PM
  #117
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1. Yet they keep acquiring defensemen to push him out of the top 4 and apparently the top 6 too. Maybe Nikitin was a surprise top 4, not expected, but guess who they kept? Guess who they kept, MM or Tyutin? Using total ice time for one season and per game for the other... nice one. In reality he was 4th for both seasons with per game ice time (omitting Johnson, but still a D who was better than him). 4th in ice time on a terrible team and subsequently replaced for upgrades does not qualify you to play top pair on a playoff team. Which was the question, and it's not answered.


2. Well if the UFA are better, which you are suggesting they could be, how would getting Methot be more beneficial to the team? Even if Methot = the UFA, it's not worth sacrificing Foligno. (who fits the youth). I know I'm repeating myself, but you're not answering the question. It's not worth giving up Foligno.
I didn't read the other thread, so forgive me if some of this has been mentioned before.

I'm just going to pick a few random games from the CBJ schedule last year and lay out the defensive pairings...

First game 10/7/11 vs Nashville:
Tyutin - Martinek
Methot - Clitsome
Russell - Savard

12/31/11 vs Washington:
Tyutin - Methot
Clitsome - Moore
A Johnson - Savard

2/21/12 vs San Jose:
Tyutin - Nikitin
Lebda - Moore
Clitsome - Savard

2/26/12 vs Pittsburgh:
J Johnson - Wisniewski
Tyutin - Nikitin
Lebda - Moore

4/7/12 vs Islanders:
J Johnson - Wisniewski
Lebda - Nikitin
A Johnson - D Prout

Believe it or not, the defenseman with the most games played (as a CBJ) last season was John Moore (a rookie) with 67 games. Between suspensions and injuries the CBJ defense last year was horrible (backed-up by a great goalie, Sieve Mason)

When the K. Russell / Nikitin trade went down, many St Louis fans were commenting that one of Nikitin's main problems was his inability to understand things due to his lack of English skills. He arrived in Columbus and he and Tyutin found almost instant chemistry. So, the CBJ don't want to break up that pair. With the addition of Bobrosky (sp?) from Philly, having a Russian mentor type on the team is a good thing - so moving Tyutin isn't going to happen.

J Johnson and Wisniewski, much to many people's surprise worked VERY well together. Maybe they have a very easy time anticipating each other since they would tend to do the same things in the same situations. So, that pair looked pretty solid moving forward. Couple that with the fact that both were newly acquired and expensive, neither of them would get moved.

So, Methot was looking like the odd man out (he makes too much money as a 3rd pairing defenseman).

You can't necessarily compare TOI between players the way some of you are trying to do either. It may not be an issue with the #5 guy, it may be an issue with the #6. If you can't trust #6, the TOI of guy #5 can get cut dramatically as well. With all the injuries to the vets, J Johnson was ridden HARD at the end of the season. He and Wisniewski were playing about 25 minutes a night there at the end.

Slight addition here:

J Johnson GP = 82 LAK/CBJ
John Moore = 67
Fedor Tyutin = 66
Nikita Nikitin = 61 with STL / CBJ
A Johnson = 56
Wisniewski = 48
Methot = 46
Savard = 31
Lebda = 30
Martinek = 7
Prout = 5
Goboulef = 1
Clitsome = 63 with CBJ / Winnipeg


Last edited by cbjgirl: 07-09-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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07-09-2012, 05:05 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1222957

Well that's that guys. We was screwed.
GET OUT OF HERE!!

You are saying that a bunch of random people that have nothing to do with Hockey operations voted that we lost the trade and you say "that's it"..

So myopic it's not funny...

We got exactly what we wanted.. and more.. Never did you think you could get a mobile defensive d-man for a 3rd liner that wasn't getting signed, did you?

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07-09-2012, 06:29 PM
  #119
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Actually that statement is more true than it should be and probably caused a problem.
It was while foligno was playing awesome at 2nd line center (ppg pace over 10 games and dominating physically, controlling the play, etc.) that they made the trade for turris to take over. He was nowhere near as good as foligno was the previous 10 games but they kept him there and foligno got knocked around the bottom 6. If i was him i would have been pissed right off.
He still managed 47 pts!
And 11 of those were goals on a goalie! Tell me please where Foligno fits in exactly? Foligno, Greening, Latendresse, Silfverberg would all be on the team next year? Tell me of those 4 who is the worst goal scorer? (If Silfverberg can't score 11 goals in the NHL next year god help him haha)

A: Nick Foligno

Question: Which player is paid the most of the 4 players listed above?

A: Nick Foligno

We have only a limited number of spots and the organization is higher on Greening than Foligno. For good reason.

Worst Goal Scorer with the biggest contract got turned into something valuable (#4 D man). That's called winning.

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07-09-2012, 07:07 PM
  #120
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Worst Goal Scorer with the biggest contract got turned into something valuable (#4 D man). That's called winning.

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07-09-2012, 08:17 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I love that the past ~500 posts have pretty much the same 4 guys just arguing in circles.

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE FOLIGNO/ METHOT TRADE
- We finished 24th in the league in Goals Against, and 21st in PK, mostly because our blueline lacked a legit shutdown guy. Methot is that guy.
- We needed a shutdown guy who also had the speed and mobility to play in Maclean's high-tempo system. Methot is that guy.
- If we'd wanted one of the truly elite shutdown defencemen in the league, you'd better believe that we'd have to pay a HECK of a lot more than just Nick Foligno. We got a guy who is VERY good, and fits the pace at which we play our game (whereas many other shutdown guys either play in a defensive system, or in a system that lacks an emphasis on speed). Methot, while not Chara out there, fits Maclean's system to a tee (in theory).
- Foligno's a nice player, but he's ultimately expendable considering how full our system is of young wingers. The gap between Foligno and Latendresse is WAY less than the gap between Methot and our next best PK/ shutdown defenceman.
- Defencemen, over the last 10 years, have been the most expensive position players to acquire, due to shortage in quality. In contrast to this, wingers have been the cheapest to acquire, due to an overabundance of them in the league.
- The team didn't see Foligno as a top-6 player (so far).
- People who use the "we acquired a defenceman from the league's worst team" argument completely dismiss the factors as to WHY that team finished last: their "star goalie" had a .894sv%, which was 74th in the league. That's not to mention that Mason had a decent last few months of the season... in January, his Sv% was in the .860's. Columbus suffered from a double-whammy of being a bottom-5 team in Goals For, and having some of the worst goaltending of any team in the last decade. Zdeno Chara would have been a minus player for Columbus last year.

I don't know... can I really add anything to that? They are 2 years and 3 months apart in age, which is almost nothing. Filled a need by moving from an area of strength? Check.

I get if Foligno was your favorite player: it sucks, there's a ton of emotional stuff involved. I get it. But strictly from a hockey sense, what else needs to be said, here?
Well said.

We aren't losing as much as people think by losing Foligno. Greening fits a depth role better and over the next couple years we'll probably find another LW or two that can fit better into offensive roles than he can. The trade made sense, it's as simple as that.

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07-09-2012, 09:04 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I love that the past ~500 posts have pretty much the same 4 guys just arguing in circles.

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE FOLIGNO/ METHOT TRADE
- We finished 24th in the league in Goals Against, and 21st in PK, mostly because our blueline lacked a legit shutdown guy. Methot is that guy.
- We needed a shutdown guy who also had the speed and mobility to play in Maclean's high-tempo system. Methot is that guy.
- If we'd wanted one of the truly elite shutdown defencemen in the league, you'd better believe that we'd have to pay a HECK of a lot more than just Nick Foligno. We got a guy who is VERY good, and fits the pace at which we play our game (whereas many other shutdown guys either play in a defensive system, or in a system that lacks an emphasis on speed). Methot, while not Chara out there, fits Maclean's system to a tee (in theory).
- Foligno's a nice player, but he's ultimately expendable considering how full our system is of young wingers. The gap between Foligno and Latendresse is WAY less than the gap between Methot and our next best PK/ shutdown defenceman.
- Defencemen, over the last 10 years, have been the most expensive position players to acquire, due to shortage in quality. In contrast to this, wingers have been the cheapest to acquire, due to an overabundance of them in the league.
- The team didn't see Foligno as a top-6 player (so far).
- People who use the "we acquired a defenceman from the league's worst team" argument completely dismiss the factors as to WHY that team finished last: their "star goalie" had a .894sv%, which was 74th in the league. That's not to mention that Mason had a decent last few months of the season... in January, his Sv% was in the .860's. Columbus suffered from a double-whammy of being a bottom-5 team in Goals For, and having some of the worst goaltending of any team in the last decade. Zdeno Chara would have been a minus player for Columbus last year.

I don't know... can I really add anything to that? They are 2 years and 3 months apart in age, which is almost nothing. Filled a need by moving from an area of strength? Check.

I get if Foligno was your favorite player: it sucks, there's a ton of emotional stuff involved. I get it. But strictly from a hockey sense, what else needs to be said, here?


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07-09-2012, 09:08 PM
  #123
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And 11 of those were goals on a goalie! Tell me please where Foligno fits in exactly? Foligno, Greening, Latendresse, Silfverberg would all be on the team next year? Tell me of those 4 who is the worst goal scorer? (If Silfverberg can't score 11 goals in the NHL next year god help him haha)

A: Nick Foligno

Question: Which player is paid the most of the 4 players listed above?

A: Nick Foligno

We have only a limited number of spots and the organization is higher on Greening than Foligno. For good reason.

Worst Goal Scorer with the biggest contract got turned into something valuable (#4 D man). That's called winning.
Cant be that bad of a goalscorer to have more GWG than Spezza, Kopitar, Nash, Jagr, Turris, Semin, Lucic, Kesler, Richards, Ennis, Havlat and equal to St. Louis, Eriksson, Parise, Ovechkin, Ryan, Heatley, Crosby, etc.

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07-09-2012, 09:21 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
Cant be that bad of a goalscorer to have more GWG than Spezza, Kopitar, Nash, Jagr, Turris, Semin, Lucic, Kesler, Richards, Ennis, Havlat and equal to St. Louis, Eriksson, Parise, Ovechkin, Ryan, Heatley, Crosby, etc.
I'm sorry but there is really not THAT much talent in scoring a GWG. Yes, it proves a guy can be clutch and in most cases it is the elite players that end up the leaders in the category, but I really think in Foligno's case last season was all about timing. He seemed to be in the right place and the right time way too often and a lot of it seemed to be when our top line was getting a rest. I really doubt he does that again.....

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07-09-2012, 09:26 PM
  #125
starling
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Wish we resigned Volchie a year ago...
$4M for the utlimate shutdown D doesn't sound that bad now...

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