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Old
07-04-2012, 10:42 PM
  #26
Xelstyle
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Originally Posted by Thumper17 View Post
I looked at his numbers, he's a No.2 center. There are a few other No.2's on that list.
If you only look blindly at points like that then Olli by definition is by all means a #1 which we all know he isn't.
Antropov was pushed down to the 3rd or 4th line in the season because he was being outplayed.
Zetterberg, can play center but was being centered by Fillipula.
MacDonald and Elias? Also wingers or primarily wingers.
Stoll, Sutter, and Legwand. #3 Cs.

Point is, it's also not always just about the points. If you want to suggest some reasonable options like Krecji (which may not even be possible) you'll want a better list. For the time being, bar trading Backlund, picks, prospects and/or defenseman, Stajan is one of our best options as a top 6 guy.

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07-04-2012, 11:05 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Thumper17 View Post
I looked at his numbers, he's a No.2 center. There are a few other No.2's on that list.
You just made my day Stajan>Horcoff. Stajan had 1.4 points per 60 min at ES on the fourth line Horcoff had 1.1 playing with Smith and Hemsky. He is worse at faceoffs and isn't any better defensively, and yet Horcoof is a #2 centerman and Stajan isn't.

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07-05-2012, 12:29 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
You just made my day Stajan>Horcoff. Stajan had 1.4 points per 60 min at ES on the fourth line Horcoff had 1.1 playing with Smith and Hemsky. He is worse at faceoffs and isn't any better defensively, and yet Horcoof is a #2 centerman and Stajan isn't.
Any time you want to hop of Stajans **** will be fine.

Horcoff plays on a crap team. Give him minutes on a better team he'll have better numbers.

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07-05-2012, 12:58 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Thumper17 View Post
Stajan plays on a crap team. Give him minutes on a better team he'll have better numbers.
Well...I would have never thought that.

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07-05-2012, 01:14 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Thumper17 View Post

Horcoff plays on a crap team. Give him minutes on a better team he'll have better numbers.
Stajan had crap minutes. Put him on a line with better talent and he'll have better numbers.

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07-05-2012, 02:33 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
Stajan had crap minutes. Put him on a line with better talent and he'll have better numbers.
All things considered, Stajan and Horcoff are similiar tiered centermen. Dunno what the arguement is because neither of them are likely considered #1C anyways.

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07-05-2012, 05:32 AM
  #32
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For what it's worth, I hate the oilers more than most people, especially because I live up here and have to listen to their unbelievably annoying fan base. Horcoff is terrible but I would take him on my team 10 times out of 10 over Stajan. At least Horcoff plays with some heart and gusto (there are rumors around town that he uses the fleury specialty to pump up for games if y'all catch my drift.) the problem with Stajan isn't just that he's not that good at the great sport, it's that he plays without any sort of drive on the ice, and it's offensive to watch.

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07-05-2012, 11:48 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Flameshomer View Post
For what it's worth, I hate the oilers more than most people, especially because I live up here and have to listen to their unbelievably annoying fan base. Horcoff is terrible but I would take him on my team 10 times out of 10 over Stajan. At least Horcoff plays with some heart and gusto (there are rumors around town that he uses the fleury specialty to pump up for games if y'all catch my drift.) the problem with Stajan isn't just that he's not that good at the great sport, it's that he plays without any sort of drive on the ice, and it's offensive to watch.
You need to watch Horcoff more often. It's great that the guy has heart, but Stajan has been showing the same as well during the last bit of the season.

I'd much rather see Stajan bring that new-found passion onto the top 6 where he never really had a chance to after putting in more effort as a 4th liner.

Besides, do you really want SHAWN "Stone Hands" HORCOFF at a hit of 5.5M until 2014-2015?...

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07-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Thumper17 View Post
Any time you want to hop of Stajans **** will be fine.

Horcoff plays on a crap team. Give him minutes on a better team he'll have better numbers.
He had better linemates and more offensive chances and yet did much worse at ES than Stajan. The fact you would take Horcoff over Stajan proves you are blinded by hate.

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07-09-2012, 12:04 PM
  #35
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As an Oiler fan, Horcoff does not play with heart or passion. He is a player that skates a lot but accomplishes very little on the ice. Can't remember the last time he threw a hit.

Don't know what flameshomer meant by the "fleury specialty" though. No rumors of that around here.

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07-09-2012, 12:55 PM
  #36
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Why is antropov stoll sutter and nielson on that list not to mention carter

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07-09-2012, 01:12 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
People need to realize if we actually use Stajan we become an ok faceoff team last year our 4 top center man took 2,909 faceoffs and won 1359 for a faceoff% of 47%, Now using Stajan and letting him take Jokinen's 1333 faceoffs as well as using Cammy, Backlund, Jones as center man we would win 1395 for a faceoff% of 48%. The main problem with last year was Horak and allowing Jokinen to take twice as much as Stajan we could actually improve our faceoff numbers by simply using our best faceoff player.
How big an effect do you guys really feel an extra 30-40 faceoffs won over the course of a season is going to make on the team's success rate? Yes, it's frustrating to watch a team that seems to lose far too many faceoffs, but until someone throws out actual evidence to support the value of that few faceoffs through 82 games, I'm going to go ahead and say that there's absolutely no need to bring in centres specifically to take faceoffs.

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07-09-2012, 01:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
How big an effect do you guys really feel an extra 30-40 faceoffs won over the course of a season is going to make on the team's success rate? Yes, it's frustrating to watch a team that seems to lose far too many faceoffs, but until someone throws out actual evidence to support the value of that few faceoffs through 82 games, I'm going to go ahead and say that there's absolutely no need to bring in centres specifically to take faceoffs.
It makes a difference when you're controlling the play and the puck instead of wasting your energy chasing the puck

Pretty much a useless shift when players like Iggy are out there chasing

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07-09-2012, 03:15 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
How big an effect do you guys really feel an extra 30-40 faceoffs won over the course of a season is going to make on the team's success rate? Yes, it's frustrating to watch a team that seems to lose far too many faceoffs, but until someone throws out actual evidence to support the value of that few faceoffs through 82 games, I'm going to go ahead and say that there's absolutely no need to bring in centres specifically to take faceoffs.
Puck possession is the foundation of hockey strategy. Cant shoot without the puck, can't score without shots. Defense and faceoffs are the only means of puck possession, so I'd say that faceoffs of pretty freaking important. Game 7s are decided over a faceoff.

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07-09-2012, 04:54 PM
  #40
SmellOfVictory
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Faceoffs are important, but all teams are within a few percentage points of each other in terms of overall ability (and very close to the mean); therefore I don't think they should be considered a primary area of concern.

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07-09-2012, 05:24 PM
  #41
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Crazy idea what if we went into the season with only 3 lines and say stajan and jones as flotters and we carry an extra dman everygame. So the only players taking a fo would be jones and stajan for most of the games

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07-09-2012, 05:32 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by drewskiv View Post
Crazy idea what if we went into the season with only 3 lines and say stajan and jones as flotters and we carry an extra dman everygame. So the only players taking a fo would be jones and stajan for most of the games
Players would get too tired out. Bad idea.

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07-09-2012, 05:45 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
How big an effect do you guys really feel an extra 30-40 faceoffs won over the course of a season is going to make on the team's success rate? Yes, it's frustrating to watch a team that seems to lose far too many faceoffs, but until someone throws out actual evidence to support the value of that few faceoffs through 82 games, I'm going to go ahead and say that there's absolutely no need to bring in centres specifically to take faceoffs.
Absolutely crucial for special teams.

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Old
07-09-2012, 05:54 PM
  #44
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After reading the title of this thread I think about if Richards decided to sign with Flames.

But he didn't and now we have still no Centermen in site.

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07-09-2012, 06:28 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
How big an effect do you guys really feel an extra 30-40 faceoffs won over the course of a season is going to make on the team's success rate? Yes, it's frustrating to watch a team that seems to lose far too many faceoffs, but until someone throws out actual evidence to support the value of that few faceoffs through 82 games, I'm going to go ahead and say that there's absolutely no need to bring in centres specifically to take faceoffs.
I won't say we would make the playoffs if we win those 40-50 faceoffs but Jokinen was 47% at even strength faceoffs and took 1058 while Stajan was 53% and only took 513 faceoffs if Stajan were to take Jokinen's faceoffs he would have won 557 which is 60 more than Jokinen given that we were 25th in ES goals and many of our games were 1 goal games do you not think that an extra 60-70 faceoff wins leads to a few more goals causing us to get a few more points making it likely that we could have made the playoffs?

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Old
07-09-2012, 06:33 PM
  #46
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Faceoffs usually means possession for you. I'm getting pretty damn tired of being unable to control the play because we can't win the puck

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07-09-2012, 06:51 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Faceoffs are important, but all teams are within a few percentage points of each other in terms of overall ability (and very close to the mean); therefore I don't think they should be considered a primary area of concern.
So are save percentages. Tampa Bay, who had the most goals against, was icing a 88.6% in Dwayne Roloson and 90.1% in Garon. On the other hand, St. Louis had a 92.6% in Halak and 94.0 in Elliot%. It doesn't seem like huge differences right? Only a couple of percent.

Well when you face 1126 shots like Roloson faced, a single goal isn't going to change you're overall save percentage too much. Even considering that Tamba Bay let in 123 more goals than St.Louis, the difference in GA/G is only 1.5. That's because of a huge 82 game schedule.

These examples can be applied to a face-off percent. Calgary was dead last in face-offs last year with 46.2%, while Boston was rocking a sweet 54.5% (for a difference 8.3%). Well when you take as many faceoffs as Calgary took (4804), losing almost 400 more faceoffs than the best in the league seems like a huge number, but in percent, it seems very miniscule. Think about this: if we won 4.76 more faceoffs a night, we'd be the best face-off team in the league last year....

FYI, we take 58.59 faceoffs per game on average.

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Old
07-09-2012, 06:59 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Faceoffs are important, but all teams are within a few percentage points of each other in terms of overall ability (and very close to the mean); therefore I don't think they should be considered a primary area of concern.
Its a huge area of concern as it is the easiest way to get the puck not only that but we were 46.2% at the dot, so the average team takes ~5000 faceoffs. So we won 2310 so if we take the mean to be 50% then the average team would win 2500 faceoffs or in total we lose 190 faceoffs more than the average team. When you factor in the fact that we aren't a great defensive team and we aren't loaded with offensive talent this forces us to play our top players in a defensive system which doesn't allow them to score which makes it hard to win games. Faceoffs are a huge part of who wins and who loses obviously there is more to it but it is much easier to dictate play than it is to be forced to play another style.

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Old
07-09-2012, 09:55 PM
  #49
Xelstyle
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Its a huge area of concern as it is the easiest way to get the puck not only that but we were 46.2% at the dot, so the average team takes ~5000 faceoffs. So we won 2310 so if we take the mean to be 50% then the average team would win 2500 faceoffs or in total we lose 190 faceoffs more than the average team. When you factor in the fact that we aren't a great defensive team and we aren't loaded with offensive talent this forces us to play our top players in a defensive system which doesn't allow them to score which makes it hard to win games. Faceoffs are a huge part of who wins and who loses obviously there is more to it but it is much easier to dictate play than it is to be forced to play another style.
Last point on a much smaller scale.
Faceoff, whether it's your end or in the offense can easily mean a goal. Whether that's a good thing or not depends on the advantage our centermen give.

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