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Old
07-09-2012, 08:39 PM
  #51
jfb392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danmcn12 View Post
His head wasn't down, nor was he destroyed. He was elbowed and didn't even fall.


He's watching the puck and puts himself in even more of a vulnerable position by leaning forward.
It's an elbow to the head that probably ends up contacting Hishon's chest if he isn't leaning forward.


Anyways, I'm not going to bother discussing the hit anymore since this is a trade thread.
To address the topic, none of the proposed trades in this thread are realistic for either team.
The Avs would be stupid to trade Duchene and the Sabres aren't trading their young core pieces that were in the counter proposal.

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07-09-2012, 08:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
This is how I see it, if Duchene is going to be include then Myers HAS to be coming back the other way from our viewpoint.
I think Myers has a better shot at becoming Pronger than Duchene has at becoming Sakic, so I shy away from that if I'm Buffalo.

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07-09-2012, 08:43 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post


He's watching the puck and puts himself in even more of a vulnerable position by leaning forward.
It's an elbow to the head that probably ends up contacting Hishon's chest if he isn't leaning forward.


Anyways, I'm not going to bother discussing the hit anymore since this is a trade thread.
To address the topic, none of the proposed trades in this thread are realistic for either team.
The Avs would be stupid to trade Duchene and the Sabres aren't trading their young core pieces that were in the counter proposal.
No need to waste anymore time.. Last time I watched hockey.. When most guys are skating down the ice they are slightly bent over.

Uh.. AND he extended his elbow before the hit AND that was obvious.

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07-09-2012, 08:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post


He's watching the puck and puts himself in even more of a vulnerable position by leaning forward.
It's an elbow to the head that probably ends up contacting Hishon's chest if he isn't leaning forward.


Anyways, I'm not going to bother discussing the hit anymore since this is a trade thread.
To address the topic, none of the proposed trades in this thread are realistic for either team.
The Avs would be stupid to trade Duchene and the Sabres aren't trading their young core pieces that were in the counter proposal.
I'm guessing you've never played hockey based on that comment....

It was a dirty hit plain and simple.

Generally in hockey you watch the puck, you also tend to be leaning forward when you skate...unless they're supposed to just skate backwards everywhere, and even then you tend to lean forward for balance and a more solid stance to take a hit or change direction....

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07-09-2012, 08:58 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I think Myers has a better shot at becoming Pronger than Duchene has at becoming Sakic, so I shy away from that if I'm Buffalo.
Which makes that completely understandable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post


He's watching the puck and puts himself in even more of a vulnerable position by leaning forward.
It's an elbow to the head that probably ends up contacting Hishon's chest if he isn't leaning forward.


Anyways, I'm not going to bother discussing the hit anymore since this is a trade thread.
To address the topic, none of the proposed trades in this thread are realistic for either team.
The Avs would be stupid to trade Duchene and the Sabres aren't trading their young core pieces that were in the counter proposal.
I'm a big McNabb fan. I like the way he plays a hard physical game, but no doubt in my mind that was a dirty ass elbow I've ever seen. The only sickening part is he was only suspend for one game. should've been around Torres suspension.

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07-09-2012, 09:04 PM
  #56
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McNabb threw the sledgehammer at a guy who was already committed to the hockey play and his only hope was to try and duck even lower to try and avoid the hit, which failed.

Regarding Cobra's opinion on prospects, the Avs will not be moving significant players for prospects, doesn't matter how good they are (within reason, of course...). He has been rumored to want a hockey trade, the same thing he called the EJ trade.

If the Avs move Stastny or Duchy, it is for an already established or really close top pairing defender they feel is a good match for EJ.

Not a winger, not a prospect, not a pick. More wingers are of no use to us without a center to play with them, which we won't have if we move one of our guys.

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07-09-2012, 09:27 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
McNabb threw the sledgehammer at a guy who was already committed to the hockey play and his only hope was to try and duck even lower to try and avoid the hit, which failed.

Regarding Cobra's opinion on prospects, the Avs will not be moving significant players for prospects, doesn't matter how good they are (within reason, of course...). He has been rumored to want a hockey trade, the same thing he called the EJ trade.

If the Avs move Stastny or Duchy, it is for an already established or really close top pairing defender they feel is a good match for EJ.

Not a winger, not a prospect, not a pick. More wingers are of no use to us without a center to play with them, which we won't have if we move one of our guys.
I think I was pretty clear that, that was MY OPINION right?

However I don't agree on it just being for a defender.. Don't blow it out of proportion.. Trading one of our centers for a winger like Ryan would solidify our top 6 and finding a third line center is a hell of a lot easier then finding a top 6 winger or a top pair defender.

I was clear in stating my opinion.. Try to be clear in stating that your preference for a defender instead of a winger is your opinion. Especially if your going to mention my name in a post.

The fact is, none of us know jack S*** as to which direction they will go if at all. Don't act like your post is any less speculation than anyone else. (I can't stand that about you. btw You really need to stop pretending you know more than any other fan.)

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07-09-2012, 09:35 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I think I was pretty clear that, that was MY OPINION right?

However I don't agree on it just being for a defender.. Don't blow it out of proportion.. Trading one of our centers for a winger like Ryan would solidify our top 6 and finding a third line center is a hell of a lot easier then finding a top 6 winger or a top pair defender.

I was clear in stating my opinion.. Try to be clear in stating that your preference for a defender instead of a winger is your opinion. Especially if your going to mention my name in a post.

The fact is, none of us know jack S*** as to which direction they will go if at all. Don't act like your post is any less speculation than anyone else. (I can't stand that about you. btw You really need to stop pretending you know more than any other fan.)
Tell you what, if you're so convinced I am wrong, name your competition. New Avatar? New Forum Name? Satirical post?

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07-09-2012, 09:43 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Tell you what, if you're so convinced I am wrong, name your competition. New Avatar? New Forum Name? Satirical post?
So if they trade one of our centers for a defender you win?

If they trade one of our centers for a top line winger or two or three strong prospects I win?

If they don't make a deal by the deadline next year the bet is off though.

I like the Avatar idea.. The loser choses the others Avatar/sig for how long?

I am curious though.. You really don't see a trade involving Downie for a almost ready prospect like Gormley as a possibility or a good move? (Assuming the value is there obviously, hard to judge those things.) I do get that he is unproven but we don't have anything close to a defender with that clear of upside in the system and especially not one that could possibly see NHL ice next season.

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07-09-2012, 10:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
So if they trade one of our centers for a defender you win?

If they trade one of our centers for a top line winger or two or three strong prospects I win?

If they don't make a deal by the deadline next year the bet is off though.

I like the Avatar idea.. The loser choses the others Avatar/sig for how long?

I am curious though.. You really don't see a trade involving Downie for a almost ready prospect like Gormley as a possibility or a good move? (Assuming the value is there obviously, hard to judge those things.) I do get that he is unproven but we don't have anything close to a defender with that clear of upside in the system and especially not one that could possibly see NHL ice next season.
Avatar will work, sigs require donations to HF.

No, I am positive we will not move a proven asset for an unproven prospect* (one that has not established themself or played a decent amount in the NHL, such as Gormley) and I am also positive we will acquire a #1 defender before a #1 winger. And IF we did acquire both in the same trade somehow (ex. Enstrom/Little) then I expect the defender to be the main piece, aka the more valuable one.

If you don't understand why I feel this way, open up a discussion on our forums.

With Buffalo I see the possibility of a top winger, but I don't see the possibility of a deal which makes sense for us.

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07-09-2012, 10:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Avatar will work, sigs require donations to HF.

No, I am positive we will not move a proven asset for an unproven prospect* (one that has not established themself or played a decent amount in the NHL, such as Gormley) and I am also positive we will acquire a #1 defender before a #1 winger. And IF we did acquire both in the same trade somehow (ex. Enstrom/Little) then I expect the defender to be the main piece, aka the more valuable one.

If you don't understand why I feel this way, open up a discussion on our forums.

With Buffalo I see the possibility of a top winger, but I don't see the possibility of a deal which makes sense for us.
How long for the Avatar? Should I post something on the Colorado board or do you want to. I am not so sure it would be as lopsided as you claim. (Maybe a poll?)

Ive seen enough discussion here and other websites to know that there are plenty of people on both sides. Winger or Defender..

I don't honestly think the prospect idea is going to happen but that does not mean I don't think it's a good idea. Look at what Philly did? There is something to be said for taking a little risk..

I don't think we are close enough to being a contender (or filling those holes) to only be looking at proven talent.

That is about the only way you pull enough in a trade to really fill more than one hole in your roster.

Enstrom & Little would be a weak attempt at filling those holes IMO. Enstrom is good but hes not my favorite option unless it's as a UFA next year. Little is not a top line winger so that just means more redundancy unless hes playing as a third line center..

Even then.. Little is just that.. Little again not my favorite option for a third line center. (I will admit I have not watched him play all that much, could be Downie 2.0 but..)

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07-09-2012, 11:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
So if they trade one of our centers for a defender you win?

If they trade one of our centers for a top line winger or two or three strong prospects I win?

If they don't make a deal by the deadline next year the bet is off though.

I like the Avatar idea.. The loser choses the others Avatar/sig for how long?

I am curious though.. You really don't see a trade involving Downie for a almost ready prospect like Gormley as a possibility or a good move? (Assuming the value is there obviously, hard to judge those things.) I do get that he is unproven but we don't have anything close to a defender with that clear of upside in the system and especially not one that could possibly see NHL ice next season.
Disagree with basically everything you've said in this thread.

Making the playoffs was great for us. All of our young guys got a taste of playoff hockey, which is infinity times better than losing a lot and losing your confidence.

We really don't need more top 10 picks. While they are nice, winning and getting valuable experience is much more important. That draft pick might not even be ready for 2 more years, maybe more if it's a defenseman. Playing meaningful hockey in March and April is the best way for our team to get better, not with high-talent rookies.

Onto the trading roster players for prospects. Why? Most of our core is out of the "developing" stage and coming into their primes, Duchene doesn't count as he has shown he is not ready to be a #1C.

We really don't need more projects to develop and wait for, and even then they may bust.


I don't think he was being that arrogant at all to you, I agree with him. If we are going to trade our current best center, it needs to be for a top pairing, left handed partner for EJ. And they need to be established, not a prospect like Gormley who we might HOPE makes it to his potential. It's kinda common sense, I don't think he's trying to talk down to you or anything, we're all on the same team here.

It comes down to this:

If we trade Stastny (no picks or prospects at this stage in our rebuild) whatever happens to come back needs to include a 3rd line Center, because we'd just be creating a hole to fill another if we don't get one.

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07-09-2012, 11:16 PM
  #63
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Disagree with basically everything you've said in this thread.

Making the playoffs was great for us. All of our young guys got a taste of playoff hockey, which is infinity times better than losing a lot and losing your confidence.

We really don't need more top 10 picks. While they are nice, winning and getting valuable experience is much more important. That draft pick might not even be ready for 2 more years, maybe more if it's a defenseman. Playing meaningful hockey in March and April is the best way for our team to get better, not with high-talent rookies.

Onto the trading roster players for prospects. Why? Most of our core is out of the "developing" stage and coming into their primes, Duchene doesn't count as he has shown he is not ready to be a #1C.

We really don't need more projects to develop and wait for, and even then they may bust.


I don't think he was being that arrogant at all to you, I agree with him. If we are going to trade our current best center, it needs to be for a top pairing, left handed partner for EJ. And they need to be established, not a prospect like Gormley who we might HOPE makes it to his potential. It's kinda common sense, I don't think he's trying to talk down to you or anything, we're all on the same team here.

It comes down to this:

If we trade Stastny (no picks or prospects at this stage in our rebuild) whatever happens to come back needs to include a 3rd line Center, because we'd just be creating a hole to fill another if we don't get one.
The prospects idea was not the only thing I posted..

I just don't see those holes being filled through our prospect pipeline. I agree with you about the playoff experience but the chances of us becoming an actual contender with the loss of Stastny the addition of a D partner for EJ and just what we have in the pipe.. Are about slim to none..

And the chances of filling both those holes with one trade when looking for the quality of Defender that we are talking about is also even less of a possibility.

That's IMO

As far as mine and Lonewolf's discussion.. It goes well beyond this instance.

(And btw.. Players moving to new teams and finding the same success has the chance of busting just the same. See Jaybo and many other players..)

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07-10-2012, 06:43 AM
  #64
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Neither team does this:

COL- Hard to give up a 20 year old potential franchise player for any Value.

Buf: Does not send their best scorer (on par with Nash....actually nearly identical) their number 1 defensemen, and a above average prospect for a guy that is 100% potential. Simply too much to give up. This deal is a nonstarter though seeing as no matter what the return I can't see COL tradeing Duchene.

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07-10-2012, 09:01 AM
  #65
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If we were to persue an Avs center, I'd want it to be ROR. He fits our needs the most. While Duchene has a high ceiling, he's a bit redundant considering what we have.

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07-10-2012, 09:03 AM
  #66
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If we were to persue an Avs center, I'd want it to be ROR. He fits our needs the most. While Duchene has a high ceiling, he's a bit redundant considering what we have.
We value him higher than Duchene & Stastny, so feel free to astound us with the offer then.

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07-10-2012, 11:22 AM
  #67
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I don't like the OP too much from a Buffalo perspective. We would not be adding that much to Vanek in the proposal. Vanek should be worth slightly less than Rick Nash.

I would trade Myers for Duchene straight up but I don't think Darcy would do it. I think they have fairly equal value right now but I think Duchene has more potential. Also Duchene isn't as much of a priority after the draft Buffalo just had (in regards to the future.)

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07-10-2012, 11:42 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
So if they trade one of our centers for a defender you win?

If they trade one of our centers for a top line winger or two or three strong prospects I win?

If they don't make a deal by the deadline next year the bet is off though.

I like the Avatar idea.. The loser choses the others Avatar/sig for how long?

I am curious though.. You really don't see a trade involving Downie for a almost ready prospect like Gormley as a possibility or a good move? (Assuming the value is there obviously, hard to judge those things.) I do get that he is unproven but we don't have anything close to a defender with that clear of upside in the system and especially not one that could possibly see NHL ice next season.
I don't understand why you overrate other team's prospects over our own so much. I see it with my fellow knicks fans all of the time, which is a big part of why I can't stand most Knicks boards, if they don't absolutely love a young player, all they see are his faults, but other teams' young players they see only the strengths, even if they don't like the guy.

Gormley's an excellent prospect, but so are Duncan Siemens, Stefan Elliott, Tyson Barrie and Cameron Gaunce. Each of those players has the potential to be a #2 defensemen. Now Personally I see Barrie topping out as more of a very good #3 and PPQB if all works out, who knows how good Siemens will get, I have concerns about Elliott's development, as the kid started to look shellshocked in the latter parts of his NHL stint and you could see that getting pushed around in his own end was sapping his confidence on the offensive end, leading him to become more hesitant and make more mistakes, and you have to remain skeptical of Gaunce's amazing AHL play since the team still went out and got so many veteran bottom pairing defensemen for him to have to fight past to make the big league squad.

But you can choose to focus on the negatives with Gormley to and yet you don't. You only focus on them with our players, sometimes even ignoring the tremendous positives our guys have going for them, like how good Elliott's offense looked when he first got the call, how solid and smart Barrie looked during his stint and how absolutely filthy Gaunce was for Lake Erie all season long. It was the AHL and all, but watching him play for the monsters reminds you of Adam Foote, only left handed and more natural with the puck. We have plenty of very good defensive prospects.

If it was for proven kids that have played and done well in the NHL I'd understand, since none of our kids have proven themselves yet, but you're talking about other prospects who haven't proven themselves yet.

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07-10-2012, 01:14 PM
  #69
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I don't understand why you overrate other team's prospects over our own so much. I see it with my fellow knicks fans all of the time, which is a big part of why I can't stand most Knicks boards, if they don't absolutely love a young player, all they see are his faults, but other teams' young players they see only the strengths, even if they don't like the guy.

Gormley's an excellent prospect, but so are Duncan Siemens, Stefan Elliott, Tyson Barrie and Cameron Gaunce. Each of those players has the potential to be a #2 defensemen. Now Personally I see Barrie topping out as more of a very good #3 and PPQB if all works out, who knows how good Siemens will get, I have concerns about Elliott's development, as the kid started to look shellshocked in the latter parts of his NHL stint and you could see that getting pushed around in his own end was sapping his confidence on the offensive end, leading him to become more hesitant and make more mistakes, and you have to remain skeptical of Gaunce's amazing AHL play since the team still went out and got so many veteran bottom pairing defensemen for him to have to fight past to make the big league squad.

But you can choose to focus on the negatives with Gormley to and yet you don't. You only focus on them with our players, sometimes even ignoring the tremendous positives our guys have going for them, like how good Elliott's offense looked when he first got the call, how solid and smart Barrie looked during his stint and how absolutely filthy Gaunce was for Lake Erie all season long. It was the AHL and all, but watching him play for the monsters reminds you of Adam Foote, only left handed and more natural with the puck. We have plenty of very good defensive prospects.

If it was for proven kids that have played and done well in the NHL I'd understand, since none of our kids have proven themselves yet, but you're talking about other prospects who haven't proven themselves yet.
I think you went a little overboard with this.. No one in our pipeline projects clearly as a top pairing defender. Siemens has a chance but he is pretty far off. Elliott projects as a solid #3, I think you basically read into what I said about our prospects a bit to much bud.

And I actually have thought about the fact that Gaunce could very well end up being good enough to be a shutdown style #2, it's a long shot though and you know that. But you have to give it to him for playing as well and as much as he did (30 minutes a night?) down the stretch for LE.

If that translates over at the NHL level he could be just what we need, a mobile enough shutdown number two with a good shot.

So no.. I am not dismissing any of our D prospects. It's just my opinion that we could use at least one more guy in the system that has top pairing upside. With the importance placed on finding EJ a partner it's just one route that they could go that would be a little less expensive (but risky) than trading one of our centers.

And I don't think any of us would mind that at all especially if it worked out.

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