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Old
07-10-2012, 09:03 AM
  #101
Eyedea
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Last years pitchers with injuries

Brandon Morrow (Arm injury) - Missed 18 games
Carlos Villaneuva (Strained right forearm) - Missed 25 games
Casey Janssen (Right forearm injury) - Missed 28 games
Jesse Litsch (Right shoulder injury) - Missed 54 games
Dustin McGowan (Right shoulder surgery) - Missed 140 games
Frank Francisco (pectoral injury) - Missed 16 games
Jon Rauch (Appendicitis) - Missed 15 games - (Right knee injury) - Missed final 22 games of season.

Looking back there were a significant amount of arms that fell during the season, however they were mostly spread out compared to the 3 starters that were injured in 4 games.

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07-10-2012, 09:07 AM
  #102
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I'm shocked how comfortable Lawrie has looked at 3B. Doubt anyone would've seen this coming. Royals Mike Moustakas has looked really good as well. He was another player like Lawrie that had question marks whether he was going to stick at the position.
Yeah, it's shocking to think that the two best defenders at third-base (according to stats) have been two players that many questioned defensively. I guess it just goes to show you that even the "experts" aren't always right.

I got to give credit to Sickels though. I remember reading one of his articles (it may have been in the comment section too) last year, and he said that he didn't doubt that Lawrie could stick at third-base. I think he even said that he wouldn't be surprised if he won a gold-glove there one day.

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07-10-2012, 09:28 AM
  #103
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Per MLBTR about Upton:

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The Diamondbacks would be looking for a third baseman, shortstop or top-of-the-rotation starter if they trade Upton, Piecoro reports.
The Pirates are interested but they don’t match up well with Arizona, Piecoro writes. It’s possible the Blue Jays could be a fit, however. The Diamondbacks are known to like shortstop prospect Adeiny Hechavarria, though he wouldn’t be enough to tempt the Diamondbacks.

More Rumors about quentin:

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Earlier today we learned that the Pirates have had preliminary talks with the Padres about Carlos Quentin. Cafardo writes that the outfielder could be the next big bat to go and would also be desirable for the Dodgers and Blue Jays.

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07-10-2012, 10:48 AM
  #104
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Really wish I understood how teams develop their prospects..

Unless the mlb website is way behind with stat updates, they've got Cardona pitching 8.2 innings, Musgrove pitching 8.0, Comer pitching 15.2...shouldn't they be getting more innings than that? Is all of their "development" going to come in bullpen sessions?

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07-10-2012, 10:54 AM
  #105
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Really wish I understood how teams develop their prospects..

Unless the mlb website is way behind with stat updates, they've got Cardona pitching 8.2 innings, Musgrove pitching 8.0, Comer pitching 15.2...shouldn't they be getting more innings than that? Is all of their "development" going to come in bullpen sessions?
Bluefield has only played 19 games so far. All of those pitchers would've been at extended spring training. Also, as you can see with Sanchez, Syndegaard, and Nicolino in Lansing, there's a lot of care taken in not over extending young pitchers' arms. All those pitchers you've mentioned have been held to 4 IP per start so appearance.

In general, as exciting as our Lansing pitching prospects have been, I tend not to try not to get too excited about pitching prospects until they start proving their mettle in AA, as that's when they tend to get truly stretched out and are facing much better quality batters than the wide variance of fresh 18 year olds and 23 year old college players you find in the low A leagues.

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07-10-2012, 11:01 AM
  #106
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After reading and hearing Bautista gentle reminder to AA to get some players that can help the ball club now while they have a shot at postseason, I think AA is really in a tough spot and this season will really show what type of GM he is.

To me he has to provide a clear picture of what his vision for this team is. Right now its caught in the middle of stockpiling the minors and having a core MLB team that can contend now if a few pieces are added at the expense of losing a few prospects.

What does AA do? Does he stand pat and risk Bautista going Halladay on him asking to be move cause he is wasting his prime years on a mediocre .500 team or does he go out and bring in Grienke, Garza, Hammels or even throw a huge offer at the Mariners for King Felix?

If he stands pat then it means he is thinking that its not the time now but when is the time? As Zaun said last night if those 3 stud pitchers in Lansing are his vision then it will be at least 3-5 years before the Jays even compete and Jose will be a shadow of what he was as some on here think 35-36 year old ball players break down evidence by the stance against giving out 7-10 year deals on Pujols and Fielder.

So if AA is waiting for prospects to mature then he must decide is Ech and Gose long term solutions if so then he needs to move Escobar, EE and Bautista to bring in top tier talent to augment the prospects.

If he thinks like many fans and his best player that they can contend for the next couple of years they need to make a move for one of the pitchers and bring in someone to replace Lind at 1B or move EE to 1B and find a DH.

Boston and NY are both getting older and pitching in both cities are shaky at best. Tampa is starting to realize they are a small market team and will be losing guys like Upton to FA. The days of top 5 picks are over so the Longorias Prices, Uptons are over and its tougher to find that stud picking in the middle of the draft instead of top 5.

I think now is the time to make those moves and see if the Rogers promise of payroll upgrades is indeed true or just smoke show to appease a fan base that is really wanting to see playoff baseball after 20 years. I don't mean upgrades that are cost effective and under team control...aka on the cheap I mean going all out for player that is not cost control

What do you guys think AA should be doing? What direction do you think this team should take and why?

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07-10-2012, 11:49 AM
  #107
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What do you guys think AA should be doing? What direction do you think this team should take and why?
I think with the injuries this team has had this year, it's not the smartest to get players to make a run at the playoffs. There are too many holes to fill. I'm talking about rentals not players who are still signed after this year.

However, I do think AA should be very active in the off season. This includes trading prospects for players and signing free agents. The Jays need another good starter and another good bat, especially if EE leaves.

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07-10-2012, 11:59 AM
  #108
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Mostly, I agree with you.


The moment we signed Bautista to that long-term deal, we gave ourselves a window to win it all. After moving Marcum we were basically left with just Romero and Morrow as SPs, and neither of them are contributing much to our win-total as of right now. The fact that we've stayed in competition says a lot about our Offense, but it is definitely time to add a pitcher.

We've stockpiled an impressive farm and have a number of prospects that seem like "blue chippers", namely Gose, D'Arnaud, and maybe even Hech and some of the pitchers. To me, we can't afford to keep ALL of them as prospects with Bautista's contract ticking. You need to select one or two of them that are going to be untouchable, and move the others for significant additions to the starting pitchers and perhaps even the bullpen. I also don't think you can keep both Gose and D'Arnaud...just because you know any trade partners are going to be asking for one or both. Chose one and make a ballsy move to acquire a significant arm.

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07-10-2012, 12:01 PM
  #109
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I think with the injuries this team has had this year, it's not the smartest to get players to make a run at the playoffs. There are too many holes to fill. I'm talking about rentals not players who are still signed after this year.

However, I do think AA should be very active in the off season. This includes trading prospects for players and signing free agents. The Jays need another good starter and another good bat, especially if EE leaves.
This isn't the year. Maybe with Romero pitching well, Morrow and Hutchinson back, Santos being in the bullpen, Cordero gone...maybe then the Jays can legitimately contend. There's just too much that has gone wrong this year, even if they sneak in (which is unlikely. There's like 5 teams between them and the WC spot. Even if they are only 2.5 games out, there's too many teams to compete with).

If you can get Garza without giving up the entire farm, then fine. If you can get King Felix at a reasonable price, then do it. I can't see them going for a Grienke or Hamels though. It doesn't make sense. Nobody, AA, JB, NOBODY can be looking at this team in this state and go "yup. This is our big shot. Let's go all in this season", if you can get a controllable pitcher, then go ahead, but not for this rental stuff.

With 3 of 5 starters down, their day 1 closer...and now arguably the best remaining bullpen arm...I don't see how one can seriously trust this roster to get anywhere near the playoffs.

I think they should make clear decisions on KJ and EE. Either move them or extend them. ASAP. If you can extend them, then you look to go after Garza. If you can't, then you move them for prospects (who are hopefully close to major league ready) and write off this season.

There's a clear hole in LF right now (Rajai is a bench bat with great speed to pinch run), if you can get Upton or CarGo or whoever, depending on the price...DO IT. If you don't extend KJ or EE, there's an obvious hole at 1st and 2nd. If you're no going to extend them, you've at least got to try and fill said holes.

Thirdly...move JPA if he's got value. Let Mathis play and Gomes backs him up or something. That is...only if you can get something of value out of JPA.

Would like to see Stroman up as well. Just so I get to watch him. No reason besides that.

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07-10-2012, 12:17 PM
  #110
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AA has no obligation to build a team for Bautista, he has an obligation to build the best team period. Up to now we have been accumulating talent, just because some are impatient doesnt mean he is going to part with years of stockpiled talent to try to win in the next year. Whats the point of spending 3-4 years bringing in the arms we have only to turn around and gut it in 6 months to try to win now?

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07-10-2012, 12:25 PM
  #111
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AA has no obligation to build a team for Bautista, he has an obligation to build the best team period. Up to now we have been accumulating talent, just because some are impatient doesnt mean he is going to part with years of stockpiled talent to try to win in the next year. Whats the point of spending 3-4 years bringing in the arms we have only to turn around and gut it in 6 months to try to win now?
It's not an obligation to Bautista. It's an obligation to the fans, the scouting and coaching staff, and the current roster to turn the most lethal bat in the MLB into a winning team. Stockpiling prospects is great, but we have quite literally struck gold by getting arguably the best player in baseball right now. We need to capitalize on it while we still have it. It's not FOR Bautista. It's BECAUSE Bautista.

We had the best pitcher in baseball for a few years, and we never did anything with it. Now we have the best bat in baseball...and frankly we can't make the mistake again. We can EASILY trade prospects while still maintaining a great core of Rasmus, Lawrie, and Romero. While we have Bautista we need to use him to help us win a championship.

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07-10-2012, 12:32 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
AA has no obligation to build a team for Bautista, he has an obligation to build the best team period. Up to now we have been accumulating talent, just because some are impatient doesnt mean he is going to part with years of stockpiled talent to try to win in the next year. Whats the point of spending 3-4 years bringing in the arms we have only to turn around and gut it in 6 months to try to win now?
If you have an opportunity to win, you take it. This year I do agree there is no point of trading prospects but in the off season there is.

Look at the Nationals, they signed Jackson and traded for Gio.

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07-10-2012, 12:33 PM
  #113
Michael Gary Scott
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What players do you guys feel as unmovable? Lawrie, Rasmus, Bautista all seem to be in that place in my opinion.

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07-10-2012, 12:34 PM
  #114
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Brandon Morrow is without a doubt unmovable. I'd even say Janssen with how well he's been for the team.

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07-10-2012, 12:35 PM
  #115
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If posters on a message board are able to calculate the age discrepancy between prospects and veterans I'm sure management is well aware of it as well.

Keep in mind that the goal is not to be a 1 year wonder but a perrenial contender.

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07-10-2012, 12:35 PM
  #116
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What players do you guys feel as unmovable? Lawrie, Rasmus, Bautista all seem to be in that place in my opinion.
I believe there is no such thing as an unmovable player. If the right deal came along, you do it.

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07-10-2012, 12:41 PM
  #117
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I believe there is no such thing as an unmovable player. If the right deal came along, you do it.
Well when it comes to Lawrie, Rasmus and Morrow, I would be reluctant to trade them for any package/player. Come back in a few years and the mindset may change, but right now these are the guys that will take over this team.

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07-10-2012, 12:56 PM
  #118
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You're going to have to point out the lie to me.

Beltran says they had discussions and that he was not willing to be a DH, but no official offer was made.

AA seems to imply they had discussions with Beltran, but he wouldn't consider being a DH, amid other concerns. Also suggests more years or money wouldn't have alleviated such concerns.

I suppose you could suggest the lie is AA mentions years and money not being enough to lure Beltran (assuming he's only talking about Beltran) into being an AL DH and Beltran says years and money weren't discussed... But that's suggesting:

1) Beltran's memory is perfect and he is being completely truthful
2) AA and Beltran hold the exact same criteria for what constitutes discussing contract terms

The media and (some) fans sure do like to stir up **** haha
Quote:
"I know that we were linked to him and so on, but with a lot of players, at times, some of them don't want to play on turf at no matter what money," Anthopoulos said at the time. "Some of them don't want to DH no matter what money, and some of them have health concerns from a medical staff that the club may feel they have to DH, and if they have to DH they're unwilling to sign no matter what the dollars are, considering they've made a lot of money in their career. And some don't want to change leagues, going from the National League to the American League, even if you offer them more years and more money. At that point, I don't know what you can do, other than having taken that shot."
That was the official quote from AA himself. I agree, he wasn't pulling a fast one on us. At the time, the talk of the town was about the Skydome getting real grass which got everyone in a frenzy. It was such a juicy detail that the media pounced on it and made it appear as though it was the defining factor on whether or not Beltran would come to the Jays. That just isn't the case. No "formal" offer was made, okay, what's the definition of a "formal" offer? There's just way too many factors (DH vs LF, Destination, Contention, etc) to believe that turf was primary issue not to mention there's a possibility that Beltran was bending the truth in regards to negotiations which is always a touchy subject.

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07-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #119
ryno23
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AA has no obligation to build a team for Bautista, he has an obligation to build the best team period. Up to now we have been accumulating talent, just because some are impatient doesnt mean he is going to part with years of stockpiled talent to try to win in the next year. Whats the point of spending 3-4 years bringing in the arms we have only to turn around and gut it in 6 months to try to win now?
Hey listen prospects are great and when you have tons its even better but how many of those prospects will become MLB all-stars? How many will contribute to the levels that Rasmus, Romero, Morrow are doing now?

To me its just shuffling the deck chairs its out with the old and more costly guys and in with the new cheap younger versions.

To me I don't see it as we have 3 starters down and a closer down and Lind at 1b....its wow we are in the WC hunt with all that missing. If they go out and get a guy or 2 especially a couple of pitchers then you can slot guys back to their roles and that should spark a good 2nd half.

Don't forget Drabek is done for almost next year as well and it takes almost 24 months before getting back from 1st TJ and Hutch who knows how he will come back. Getting Garza or giving money to Hamels or Grienke those are pieces that will be around for a while. Besides the 3 kids in Lansing who is the next pitcher coming up to be a top 1-3 in the majors??

To me you trade for Cole and then sign him to a huge deal then your top of the rotation is Hamels, Morrow, Romero.....pretty effing solid with Alvarez coming in at 4th and then you only need to fill 5 next year.

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07-10-2012, 01:23 PM
  #120
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I don't know where 'selling the farm' comes into play when acquiring another impact player. You take 2/3 of D'Arnaud, Marisnik, Gose, Hech, Synd, Nich, Sanchez and you still have a solid base of young up and coming talent. Not to mention Norris, Jenkins, McGuire and other recent draftees. Who can forget Cooper and Snider aswell. You also can't put a price on the amount of confidence and energy it gives a team when it gets some desperate major league reinforcements. I've heard countless interviews of past players that tell the story of mid/late season acquisitions that gave the entire team a burst of energy down the stretch. This isn't a video game, this is real life, with real people playing the game with emotion. This team has been through alot this year, I think a little can go a long way.

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07-10-2012, 01:25 PM
  #121
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We need to capitalize on it while we still have it. It's not FOR Bautista. It's BECAUSE Bautista.
The problem is that in this sport one player means nothing. This isn't basketball where one superstar player is enough to put you into contention alone and you just need a few smart moves to augment that player in order to become a title contender. Offensively our current lineup is close, but pitching wise? We'd have to acquire at least 2, if not 3 legitimate starters to even be able to say that we are "competing". It is simply too high a mountain to climb with the way that injuries have decimated this team...and thats not even taking into account our "best" pitcher (Romero) looking like crap for the majority of the season.

The plan should be to make moves to acquire further controllable talent that enhances our future window. Acquiring a half-season rental would be foolish and would not come even close to putting us over the top...no way.

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07-10-2012, 01:30 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Tootoo Train View Post
I don't know where 'selling the farm' comes into play when acquiring another impact player. You take 2/3 of D'Arnaud, Marisnik, Gose, Hech, Synd, Nich, Sanchez and you still have a solid base of young up and coming talent. Not to mention Norris, Jenkins, McGuire and other recent draftees. Who can forget Cooper and Snider aswell. You also can't put a price on the amount of confidence and energy it gives a team when it gets some desperate major league reinforcements. I've heard countless interviews of past players that tell the story of mid/late season acquisitions that gave the entire team a burst of energy down the stretch. This isn't a video game, this is real life, with real people playing the game with emotion. This team has been through alot this year, I think a little can go a long way.
Good post....just look at the Rickey Henderson and David Cone deals when they Jays won back to back.....really boosted the club and gave them that extra edge.

But your right to me you stock the farm so you can use the assets to make a move for the MLB club and push it to a new level. That of course is the case unless your owner has a budget limit on the team and is unwilling to go over it.

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07-10-2012, 01:34 PM
  #123
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Yeah I wouldn't trade for a guy like Hamels since he seems pretty set on signing with LA (Dodgers) in the off season. Who knows about Greinke, he seems to just want a crazy high contract and has shown interest in playing for the Braves.

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07-10-2012, 01:45 PM
  #124
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The problem is that in this sport one player means nothing. This isn't basketball where one superstar player is enough to put you into contention alone and you just need a few smart moves to augment that player in order to become a title contender. Offensively our current lineup is close, but pitching wise? We'd have to acquire at least 2, if not 3 legitimate starters to even be able to say that we are "competing". It is simply too high a mountain to climb with the way that injuries have decimated this team...and thats not even taking into account our "best" pitcher (Romero) looking like crap for the majority of the season.

The plan should be to make moves to acquire further controllable talent that enhances our future window. Acquiring a half-season rental would be foolish and would not come even close to putting us over the top...no way.
Why not take a chance on the rental? You have a 1/2 season to sell them on the city, team and that is what your job as GM is all about....guys want to play for a winner not a team that is always looking 3-5 years away at prospects and not focused on making the postseason every year.

To me controllable players are a Billy Beane special....ok players but not difference makers.

Act like a big market and do what it takes to win.

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07-10-2012, 01:54 PM
  #125
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What players do you guys feel as unmovable? Lawrie, Rasmus, Bautista all seem to be in that place in my opinion.
cordero?

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