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Old
07-10-2012, 01:31 PM
  #101
Spectra
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Well this Proposal look's more appeiling. I'd still like maybe a little pick for it or something.
We have no 2nd and 3rd next year but I would include a 2014 2nd to get it done.

Hammer fits in your top 4, has a good contract and is still improving.

Kruger can easily be your 3rd center (was mostly our 2nd last year and that was not ideal...) and keeps improving. Desharnais and Eller jump up a spot and isn't Leblanc knocking on the door as well?

Morin is a prospect who might very well earn a spot on the Hawks in camp. Projects as a top 6 two-way forward who can score and hit a bit.

And you save a bit of money and get a top 60 pick.

Question is, are MTL rebuilding or not? If not, I understand if you want to keep Plekanec.

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:32 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
He is.

And yes he went hard with the racist thing

Is Gill considered a steady-defensive shutdown partner ? I tought he was some kind of happy-Pole
I'm not sure how a Habs fan can say that, Gill was playing steady hockey in MTL for the most part (for what he is). As long as he gets to be a defensive lug for a freewheeling partner.

Gorges obviously does it best as he's got far more mobility then Gill. Subban right now needs a Gorges, I think he's always going to be at his peak with a partner like that, but to me, even with a guy like that he still gets exposed more then he should.

All I'm saying is, I believe Subban has a lot more potential room to grow before he should be valued as an elite defenseman. Potential should be valued lower then the real, right now talent as it is not a given.

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:34 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by TLinden16 View Post
I'm not sure how a Habs fan can say that, Gill was playing great hockey in MTL for the most part. As long as he gets to be a defensive lug for a freewheeling partner.

Gorges obviously does it best as he's got far more mobility then Gill. Subban right now needs a Gorges, I think he's always going to be at his peak with a partner like that, but to me, even with a guy like that he still gets exposed more then he should.
How many d-men in the ENTIRE league don't need a steady reliable d-man on the ice with them to be able to play like a number 1?

Seriously...name me one d-man who could and would still be a number 1 d-man with a borderline NHL'er playing with them.

Just one.

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:38 PM
  #104
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by TLinden16 View Post
Subban is an amazing talent. I personally don't believe he is at the level of play YET where you can trust him to be a top pairing defenseman. He still requires a very steady shutdown partner to cover him. His youth and overconfidence still lead him to make some mistakes on the ice, and eventually those will turn into great plays and big pinches but for now I don't feel he is quite at the hugely valued #1 Dman level some fans believe he is at, and thus you shouldn't value you him like one.
I trust him to be a top pairing defenseman. He was last season. Albeit on a poor team. He also most definitely does not need a steady partner to cover him. Not that it ever hurts a young defenseman to have such. But Subban uses his skating and anticipation to cover nicely for his partner as well. It's a two-way street. He's better defensively atm than he is offensively, but I think the offensive side of his game will come along. Hopefully he'll have a little more freedom (or at least a little less negative feedback when he does exercise freedom) under the new coaching staff, and that will allow his offensive game to take off. His defense is just fine as it is.

Most of his mistakes are actually in terms of discipline. Every defenseman makes "some mistakes on the ice", in terms of a bad pinch or a giveaway, and Subban's tend to get good press coverage, but over the course of a season Subban more than makes up for any such by coming back with his skating or breaking up a play he really had no business having a chance to break up. What I want for Subban is some patience on the PP, more rushes with the puck, and to try to rein in some of the bad penalties. His error/recovery ratio and overall defense is fine for me as my team's #1 defenseman, and top-pairing shut-down PK defender.

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:44 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
How many d-men in the ENTIRE league don't need a steady reliable d-man on the ice with them to be able to play like a number 1?

Seriously...name me one d-man who could and would still be a number 1 d-man with a borderline NHL'er playing with them.

Just one.
Duncan Keith still looked like a #1 when he split from Seabrook and played with Nick Leddy?
Nik Lidstrom split the season with Ian White and Jon Ericsson... still looked like a #1.
Zdeno Chara is a total beast and his partner for the season was Johnny Boychuk.
Weber looked like a #1 with Bouillon and Josi paired with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I trust him to be a top pairing defenseman. He was last season. Albeit on a poor team. He also most definitely does not need a steady partner to cover him. Not that it ever hurts a young defenseman to have such. But Subban uses his skating and anticipation to cover nicely for his partner as well. It's a two-way street. He's better defensively atm than he is offensively, but I think the offensive side of his game will come along. Hopefully he'll have a little more freedom (or at least a little less negative feedback when he does exercise freedom) under the new coaching staff, and that will allow his offensive game to take off. His defense is just fine as it is.

Most of his mistakes are actually in terms of discipline. Every defenseman makes "some mistakes on the ice", in terms of a bad pinch or a giveaway, and Subban's tend to get good press coverage, but over the course of a season Subban more than makes up for any such by coming back with his skating or breaking up a play he really had no business having a chance to break up. What I want for Subban is some patience on the PP, more rushes with the puck, and to try to rein in some of the bad penalties. His error/recovery ratio and overall defense is fine for me as my team's #1 defenseman, and top-pairing shut-down PK defender.
Thanks for the post, all I'm looking for is some back and forth conversation without people calling me a racist or jumping down my throat for questioning Subban.

I guess all I was trying to get across is to me, he is exactly what you said, he is a #1 defenseman on a poor team. If he's sent to Chicago who is trying to compete for a cup I feel like he won't be able to fill the #1 role as admirably as people think. That is where I feel the values get mixed up for me.

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:46 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by TLinden16 View Post
Duncan Keith still looked like a #1 when he split from Seabrook and played with Nick Leddy?
Nik Lidstrom split the season with Ian White and Jon Ericsson... still looked like a #1.
Zdeno Chara is a total beast and his partner for the season was Johnny Boychuk.
Weber looked like a #1 with Bouillon and Josi paired with him.

So... 3 of the last 4 Norris trophy winners? Including one who is the best player in the NHL in the last 20 years?

And Weber...who played with Suter ALL the time (but somehow because it helps your argument all of a sudden he played with Bouillion and Josi )

Good stuff. Glad we could clear that up.

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07-10-2012, 01:52 PM
  #107
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1Karllsonn
2Weber
3Chara
4Keith
5Suter
6Seabrook
7Edler
8Campbell
9Pietrangelo
10Streit
11Pronger
12Boyle
13Phanuf
14Yandle
15Letang
16Timmonen
17Burns
18Hamhuis
19Doughty
20Kronwall
21Enstrom
22Green
23Girardi
24Staal
25Bouwmeester
26Visnovsky
27E Johnson
28Byfuglien
29Gonchar

off the top of my head are all better then or have an argument to be better then PK

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:52 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by TLinden16 View Post
I guess all I was trying to get across is to me, he is exactly what you said, he is a #1 defenseman on a poor team. If he's sent to Chicago who is trying to compete for a cup I feel like he won't be able to fill the #1 role as admirably as people think. That is where I feel the values get mixed up for me.
I don't think you're racist, just that you have a poor perception of what Subban is as a defenseman. He was the #1 on a playoff team in 2010-2011 and at 20 he was the habs best defenseman in the playoffs on their way to the ECF. Not a #1 on a bad team like you say.

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:53 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
1Karllsonn
2Weber
3Chara
4Keith
5Suter
6Seabrook
7Edler
8Campbell
9Pietrangelo
10Streit
11Pronger
12Boyle
13Phanuf
14Yandle
15Letang
16Timmonen
17Burns
18Hamhuis
19Doughty
20Kronwall
21Enstrom
22Green
23Girardi
24Staal
25Bouwmeester
26Visnovsky
27E Johnson
28Byfuglien
29Gonchar

off the top of my head are all better then or have an argument to be better then PK
I can't decide which is funnier, Gonchar at 29 or Streit at 10...but both are brilliant.

Thanks for taking the time to make that list.

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Old
07-10-2012, 01:57 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
I can't decide which is funnier, Gonchar at 29 or Streit at 10...but both are brilliant.

Thanks for taking the time to make that list.
its not in order BROOOOOOO

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Old
07-10-2012, 02:01 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
1Karllsonn
2Weber
3Chara
4Keith
5Suter
6Seabrook
7Edler
8Campbell
9Pietrangelo
10Streit
11Pronger
12Boyle
13Phanuf
14Yandle
15Letang
16Timmonen
17Burns
18Hamhuis
19Doughty
20Kronwall
21Enstrom
22Green
23Girardi
24Staal
25Bouwmeester
26Visnovsky
27E Johnson
28Byfuglien
29Gonchar

off the top of my head are all better then or have an argument to be better then PK
This is a joke right? The only defensemen I take on that list over Subban is Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo and Doughty.

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Old
07-10-2012, 02:05 PM
  #112
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get
Chelios

get
Savard

No from MTL point of view.

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Old
07-10-2012, 02:06 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
its not in order BROOOOOOO
Okay, Gonchar being anywhere on that list is hilarious.

Several others too...but that one in particular.

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Old
07-10-2012, 02:09 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
1Karllsonn
2Weber
3Chara
4Keith
5Suter
6Seabrook
7Edler
8Campbell
9Pietrangelo
10Streit
11Pronger
12Boyle
13Phanuf
14Yandle
15Letang
16Timmonen
17Burns
18Hamhuis
19Doughty
20Kronwall
21Enstrom
22Green
23Girardi
24Staal
25Bouwmeester
26Visnovsky
27E Johnson
28Byfuglien
29Gonchar

off the top of my head are all better then or have an argument to be better then PK
No disrespect but roughly half of that list is below Subban.

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Old
07-10-2012, 02:10 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
This is a joke right? The only defensemen I take on that list over Subban is Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo and Doughty.

Please stop taking the bait. We know how good PK is, and so does he. This is a case of your guy sucks and our guy is a HOFer.

But I agree with you, his list is a joke.

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07-10-2012, 02:11 PM
  #116
ChiHawk21
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Okay, Gonchar being anywhere on that list is hilarious.

Several others too...but that one in particular.


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Gonch...:10,s:17,i:162

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07-10-2012, 02:14 PM
  #117
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Can't get to 30 defensemen? add a bunch of over the hill guys!
30. Nick Lidstrom

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Old
07-10-2012, 02:18 PM
  #118
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30. Nick Lidstrom
Is 31. Bobby Orr?

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Old
07-10-2012, 02:53 PM
  #119
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If the Habs do this I'd be very disappointed.

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07-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #120
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Buffy shouldn't be on a Top 50 D list...He should be playing forward...

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07-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #121
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why would we overpay for Kane?

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Old
07-10-2012, 03:15 PM
  #122
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Weber
Chara
Piets
Doughty
Seabs
Keith
OEL
McDonagh
Karlsson
Suter
Letang
Yandle

I can confidently say I'd take these guys over Subban.

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Old
07-10-2012, 03:29 PM
  #123
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The young defensemen I would take over PK Subban if I were building a team from scratch today is very slim. Only these guys come to mind........

1. Karlsson
2. Weber
3. Pietrangelo
4. Doughty
5. Letang
6. Keith
7. Ekman-Larsson
8. Suter

MAYBE

9. Seabrook
10. Yandle
11. Edler
12. Myers
13. Larsson
14. Kulikov
15. Erik Johsnon
16. Jack Johnson
17. John Carlson
18. Cam Fowler
19. Victor Hedman

Yes, Subban is THAT good. His biggest enemy is himself and once he learns how to reel it in like Chelios, Stevens and Pronger did, he will be an elite defenseman at every aspect of the game. The skill, body, work ethic and training is all in place. When his head catches up, he'll be all-around amazing and dynamic.

Forget about all those older defensemen in their 30s like Campbell, Boyle, Streit, Chara, Timonen, etc. As great as some of them are, the AGE FACTOR makes Subban the choice over all of them for me.

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Old
07-10-2012, 03:31 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
Weber
Chara
Piets
Doughty
Seabs
Keith
OEL
McDonagh
Karlsson
Suter
Letang
Yandle

I can confidently say I'd take these guys over Subban.

Except for the 2 I bolded. I would say your list is pretty fair.

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Old
07-10-2012, 03:31 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
The young defensemen I would take over PK Subban if I were building a team from scratch today is very slim. Only these guys come to mind........

1. Karlsson
2. Weber
3. Pietrangelo
4. Doughty
5. Letang
6. Keith
7. Ekman-Larsson
8. Suter

MAYBE

9. Seabrook
10. Yandle
11. Edler
12. Myers
13. Larsson
14. Kulikov
15. Erik Johsnon
16. Jack Johnson
17. John Carlson
18. Cam Fowler
19. Victor Hedman

Yes, Subban is THAT good. His biggest enemy is himself and once he learns how to reel it in like Chelios, Stevens and Pronger did, he will be an elite defenseman at every aspect of the game. The skill, body, work ethic and training is all in place. When his head catches up, he'll be all-around amazing and dynamic.

Forget about all those older defensemen in their 30s like Campbell, Boyle, Streit, Chara, Timonen, etc. As great as some of them are, the AGE FACTOR makes Subban the choice over all of them for me.
I'd generally agree. Some of those guys like Fowler and Kulikov aren't as good as Subban currently but have potential to be better.

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