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Old
07-10-2012, 08:18 PM
  #1
pled
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Since Trevor Timmins

Since Trevor Timmins

2003-2012

team | player | game | g/p

MTL | 25 | 4325 | 173
SAN | 24 | 4078 | 170
CHI | 28 | 4058 | 145
BOS | 26 | 3897 | 150
CBJ | 30 | 3889 | 130
PIT | 25 | 3768 | 151
BUF | 24 | 3721 | 155
ANA | 22 | 3532 | 161
LAK | 26 | 3453 | 133
NAS | 26 | 3442 | 132
NYI | 33 | 3414 | 103
EDM | 30 | 3347 | 112
WAS | 23 | 3344 | 145
COL | 26 | 3285 | 126
PHI | 24 | 3248 | 135
BUF | 27 | 3222 | 119
NYR | 27 | 3032 | 112
FLO | 20 | 2949 | 147
PHX | 17 | 2724 | 160
DAL | 23 | 2683 | 117
OTT | 23 | 2638 | 115
MIN | 23 | 2611 | 114
CAR | 17 | 2586 | 152
WIN | 20 | 2223 | 111
VAN | 15 | 2221 | 148
TOR | 18 | 2130 | 118
NJD | 22 | 2118 | 096
DET | 16 | 1897 | 119
CAL | 20 | 1675 | 084
TAM | 20 | 1655 | 083

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07-10-2012, 08:46 PM
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snakeye
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What's the last stat?

Edit: Ah games per player.

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07-10-2012, 08:46 PM
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Very interesting stats. Trevor is the man!

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07-10-2012, 08:47 PM
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le_sean
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Wow, so much love for Detroit because of old steals like Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but not much after. Abdelkader, Helm and Filppula in this era.

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07-10-2012, 08:48 PM
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LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Wow, so much love for Detroit because of old steals like Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but not much after. Abdelkader, Helm and Filppula in this era.
I've said very often Detroit's drafting is terrible. They got reputation for late round gems, but they haven't got many european players in a long time. Very few are NHL regulars. So much for the god like image of Hakan Andersson.

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07-10-2012, 08:49 PM
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shutehinside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pled View Post
Since Trevor Timmins

2003-2012

team | player | game | g/p

MTL | 25 | 4325 | 173
SAN | 24 | 4078 | 170
CHI | 28 | 4058 | 145
BOS | 26 | 3897 | 150
CBJ | 30 | 3889 | 130
PIT | 25 | 3768 | 151
BUF | 24 | 3721 | 155
ANA | 22 | 3532 | 161
LAK | 26 | 3453 | 133
NAS | 26 | 3442 | 132
NYI | 33 | 3414 | 103
EDM | 30 | 3347 | 112
WAS | 23 | 3344 | 145
COL | 26 | 3285 | 126
PHI | 24 | 3248 | 135
BUF | 27 | 3222 | 119
NYR | 27 | 3032 | 112
FLO | 20 | 2949 | 147
PHX | 17 | 2724 | 160
DAL | 23 | 2683 | 117
OTT | 23 | 2638 | 115
MIN | 23 | 2611 | 114
CAR | 17 | 2586 | 152
WIN | 20 | 2223 | 111
VAN | 15 | 2221 | 148
TOR | 18 | 2130 | 118
NJD | 22 | 2118 | 096
DET | 16 | 1897 | 119
CAL | 20 | 1675 | 084
TAM | 20 | 1655 | 083
I,pressive indeed but with great success comes greater expectation. Where are the "star" players out of the 25? That's what separates is from the top tier teams. Don't get,e wrong, he's done a great job but Galy better pan out or these numbers won't mean much.

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07-10-2012, 08:51 PM
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LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I,pressive indeed but with great success comes greater expectation. Where are the "star" players out of the 25? That's what separates is from the top tier teams. Don't get,e wrong, he's done a great job but Galy better pan out or these numbers won't mean much.
Halak, Price, Subban, Mcdonagh, Pacioretty, etc...

Each of which is starter to 1st line capable players.

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07-10-2012, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I,pressive indeed but with great success comes greater expectation. Where are the "star" players out of the 25? That's what separates is from the top tier teams. Don't get,e wrong, he's done a great job but Galy better pan out or these numbers won't mean much.
Pacioretty, Subban, McDonagh, Price looking quite good so far.

The Habs have only drafted twice in the top5 so far. Considering this Timmins had tremendous success so far.

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07-10-2012, 09:20 PM
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timmins is a beast when it comes to evaluating talent.so glad we have him.cant wait to see what future gems he finds.

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07-10-2012, 09:23 PM
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Gabe84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Pacioretty, Subban, McDonagh, Price looking quite good so far.

The Habs have only drafted twice in the top5 so far. Considering this Timmins had tremendous success so far.
Let's not forget Streit!

And Halak!

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07-10-2012, 09:48 PM
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Watsatheo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I've said very often Detroit's drafting is terrible. They got reputation for late round gems, but they haven't got many european players in a long time. Very few are NHL regulars. So much for the god like image of Hakan Andersson.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Their drafting is pretty good but it did go a few years on a dry run until the past few years. They also regularly trade their high picks unlike a lot of teams.

From 2000, post Zetterberg, they've drafted 11 decent to good NHLers. Euros starred.:

29. Niklas Kronwall*, D
38. Tomas Kopecky*, W
42. Justin Abdelkader, W
58. Jiri Hudler*, W
63. Tomas Fleischmann*, W
64. Jim Howard, G
95. Valtteri Filppula*, C
97. Johan Franzen*, W
132. Darren Helm, C
132. Kyle Quincey, D
291. Jonathan Ericsson*, D

They currently have a really deep prospect pool. Next season Nyqvist and Smith should be added to the above list.

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07-10-2012, 09:58 PM
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LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Their drafting is pretty good but it did go a few years on a dry run until the past few years. They also regularly trade their high picks unlike a lot of teams.

From 2000, post Zetterberg, they've drafted 11 decent to good NHLers:

29. Niklas Kronwall, D
38. Tomas Kopecky, W
42. Justin Abdelkader, W
58. Jiri Hudler, W
63. Tomas Fleischmann, W
64. Jim Howard, G
95. Valtteri Filppula, C
97. Johan Franzen, W
132. Darren Helm, C
132. Kyle Quincey, D
291. Jonathan Ericsson, D

They currently have a really deep prospect pool. Next season Nyqvist and Smith should be added to the above list.

Since 2003 is the topic.

Since 2003, it becomes:


42. Justin Abdelkader, W
64. Jim Howard, G
97. Johan Franzen, W
132. Darren Helm, C
132. Kyle Quincey, D

From Europe? The great Hakan has spotted 1 regular since 2003 from europe. 1. Sure, there's the prospects now and they look like they'll make it, but c'mon, don't tell me that's a solid record now?

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07-10-2012, 11:08 PM
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i bet my friends that if lidstrom was going to retire, that they wouldn't make the playoffs in two years (2013-2014).

"oh, they'll get suter"

no they won't, and their drafting sucks!

"that's because they bring their prospects up slower than everyone else"

and so on....

****er is living in the "detroit is god" bubble. i cant WAIT until that bubble is burst, the wings go back to being garbage, and the habs take their rightful place as the kings drafting.

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07-10-2012, 11:17 PM
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Ryan O'Byrne
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I think Detroit goes for home runs with each pick which means most turn out to be busts or fringe/ ahl players

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07-10-2012, 11:41 PM
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Jack Bourdain
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Someone should make a thread on the main boards explaining why Hakan Andersson isn't that great.

Here is a sneak peek of what it might look like:


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07-10-2012, 11:42 PM
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LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Byrne View Post
I think Detroit goes for home runs with each pick which means most turn out to be busts or fringe/ ahl players
So they say but out of those who made it a lot aren't home runs. List since 2003 shows zero home runs actually, nothing. They got stars and kept them, that's why they're good. Their drafting isn't. Their management and culture is top notch however.

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07-11-2012, 06:54 AM
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Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Wow, so much love for Detroit because of old steals like Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but not much after. Abdelkader, Helm and Filppula in this era.
They haven't drafted much since Franzen. Most of their success was in drafting raw Euros and letting them develop at home for 3-4 years, nowadays those players need to be signed within 2 years.

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07-11-2012, 06:59 AM
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Gabe84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So they say but out of those who made it a lot aren't home runs. List since 2003 shows zero home runs actually, nothing. They got stars and kept them, that's why they're good. Their drafting isn't. Their management and culture is top notch however.
That's very true. That's why they're so good at reclamation projects.

I agree that their drafting has been subpar over the last decade though.

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07-11-2012, 07:00 AM
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I am sure those numbers would have been quite a bit higher if we had proper player development...

Can you imagine guys like Kostitsyn x 2, Latendresse, O'Byrne, etc. having the right development, communication, not being brought up too early or being doghoused day and night?

It just honestly goes to show how big of a gangster Timmins is. He is our Heisenberg...

Honestly I propose our new avatars for the 2012-2013 season be all about Breaking Bad...

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07-11-2012, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I've said very often Detroit's drafting is terrible. They got reputation for late round gems, but they haven't got many european players in a long time. Very few are NHL regulars. So much for the god like image of Hakan Andersson.
Detroit used to always trade their 1st round picks. Also, they win Cups from time to time.

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07-11-2012, 07:17 AM
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shutehinside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Halak, Price, Subban, Mcdonagh, Pacioretty, etc...

Each of which is starter to 1st line capable players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Pacioretty, Subban, McDonagh, Price looking quite good so far.

The Habs have only drafted twice in the top5 so far. Considering this Timmins had tremendous success so far.
While they're all looking quite good, I wouldn't put any of them in the "Star" category just yet. Price is probably the closest and while I'm a huge fan of his, he hasn't won anything for us yet. PK is making huge strides but he's also hot and cold and hasn't put it together for an entire season. Patches has had 1 very good year and hopefully he can continue but it's still too early. Halak is a tandem goalie that I wouldn't exactly say is one of the tp 10 in the NHL. McDonagh also has a lot of potential but still hasn't proven himself either.

Time will tell what these players become but as of now, I'd say we don't have a true star yet. Even at maximum potential we'd have 2 or 3 in 10 years and all in the last few years. Like I said, with great success comes greater expectation. I'm not doubting he's done well, I'm saying that there's more pressure to hit a homerun and draft a bona fida super star. Hopefully Galy can become that player. Once you've drafted a star player all the critics go away. Case in point these bottom 6 teams. Noone every says anything about the drafting of 4 of these 6 teams:

VAN | 15 | 2221 | 148 - Sedin twins

TOR | 18 | 2130 | 118 - Okay, they actually suck at drafting

NJD | 22 | 2118 | 096 - thought of as one of thebest drafting teams in the NHL. Parise, Henrique etc etc etc

DET | 16 | 1897 | 119 - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Yzerman etc etc

CAL | 20 | 1675 | 084 - Yes they suck at drafting too

TAM | 20 | 1655 | 083 - Lecavalier, Hedberg etc

Point is when you draft a star player it doesn't really matter how many man games and 2nd, 3rd or 4th line players you draft. People focus on the top 3, top 2 and starting goalie. Once you draft those, getting the rest is much easier through trades and UFA signings.

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07-11-2012, 07:22 AM
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Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
While they're all looking quite good, I wouldn't put any of them in the "Star" category just yet. Price is probably the closest and while I'm a huge fan of his, he hasn't won anything for us yet. PK is making huge strides but he's also hot and cold and hasn't put it together for an entire season. Patches has had 1 very good year and hopefully he can continue but it's still too early. Halak is a tandem goalie that I wouldn't exactly say is one of the tp 10 in the NHL. McDonagh also has a lot of potential but still hasn't proven himself either.

Time will tell what these players become but as of now, I'd say we don't have a true star yet. Even at maximum potential we'd have 2 or 3 in 10 years and all in the last few years. Like I said, with great success comes greater expectation. I'm not doubting he's done well, I'm saying that there's more pressure to hit a homerun and draft a bona fida super star. Hopefully Galy can become that player. Once you've drafted a star player all the critics go away. Case in point these bottom 6 teams. Noone every says anything about the drafting of 4 of these 6 teams:

VAN | 15 | 2221 | 148 - Sedin twins

TOR | 18 | 2130 | 118 - Okay, they actually suck at drafting

NJD | 22 | 2118 | 096 - thought of as one of thebest drafting teams in the NHL. Parise, Henrique etc etc etc

DET | 16 | 1897 | 119 - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Yzerman etc etc

CAL | 20 | 1675 | 084 - Yes they suck at drafting too

TAM | 20 | 1655 | 083 - Lecavalier, Hedberg etc

Point is when you draft a star player it doesn't really matter how many man games and 2nd, 3rd or 4th line players you draft. People focus on the top 3, top 2 and starting goalie. Once you draft those, getting the rest is much easier through trades and UFA signings.
The list was 2003 to present. Yzerman was drafted in 1983!!! So were Datsyuk Zetterberg Lidstrom Fedorov. I don't think we should include Roy Lafleur Beliveau and Richard in Timmins' drafting record.

Most of the stars you list for bottom teams are top 5 picks, yes you can still miss on those guys but a lot of those picks were no brainers(Sedins Lecavalier Stamkos Hedman etc) the real test is to get top talent past the top 5 and good players in later rounds.

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07-11-2012, 08:01 AM
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Which proove, like I keep saying, that it's not the quantity that counts but the quality. And when you have quality, you do work to keep your quality and not trade it for nothing. Detroit's draft is just a proof of that. Quality drafting, great additions. Us, we've had quantity drafting, that sometimes translated into quality but that was "successfully" traded or lacked development.

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07-11-2012, 08:03 AM
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shutehinside
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Quote:
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The list was 2003 to present. Yzerman was drafted in 1983!!! So were Datsyuk Zetterberg Lidstrom Fedorov. I don't think we should include Roy Lafleur Beliveau and Richard in Timmins' drafting record.

Most of the stars you list for bottom teams are top 5 picks, yes you can still miss on those guys but a lot of those picks were no brainers(Sedins Lecavalier Stamkos Hedman etc) the real test is to get top talent past the top 5 and good players in later rounds.
That doesn't change my pount. Detroit is in fact perceievd as one of the best drafting teams in the NHL. The fact that they tend to trade their top picks year after year only goes to make their task of drafting high end prospects that much more difficult.

As for using players that predate Timmins tenure in Montreal, I was looking st the body of work that Detroit's fron office has done since they've been in place. It doesn't seem fait to set a cut off date that starts when Timmins did. Ken Holland has been there since 1982 as has Jim Devellano. Jim Nill started off in 1994. Is it fair to exclude players they drafted that are still helping the franchise today just because it doesn't prove your point? I don't hink so. If Timmins had drafted Roy, Beliveau, LaFleur and Richard then I would have given him credit for it but he didn't. Detroint front office DID draft the players I had put on my list.

As for no brainer 1st overall picks in the top 5, plenty of top 5 picks have been busts. I won't waste my time looking them up but suffice it to say, I can easily find an extensive list of players that were busts in the top 5 so it's not as no brainer as you make it out to be. Off the top of my head I'm thinking Brule, Pouliot, Stefan etc....

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07-11-2012, 08:05 AM
  #25
LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Detroit used to always trade their 1st round picks. Also, they win Cups from time to time.
Yes. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Detroit. They are winners, that simple. They have a better culture of winning than we do, despite our greater number of cups. I'm sure historically we do, but right now? They do, no question.

Also, they haven't had much in late rounders either.

For the hell of it, let's remove have 1st rounders since 2003 to compare.

Lapierre
O'Byrne
Halak
Emelin
Grabovski
Streit
Latendresse
D'agostini
S. Kostitsyn
White
Subban
Weber


I excluded leblanc even though he will be an NHLer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Which proove, like I keep saying, that it's not the quantity that counts but the quality. And when you have quality, you do work to keep your quality and not trade it for nothing. Detroit's draft is just a proof of that. Quality drafting, great additions. Us, we've had quantity drafting, that sometimes translated into quality but that was "successfully" traded or lacked development.
I have to disagree. Detroit hasn't had 'quality drafting'. They got lidstrom 23 years ago! They retained him, that's management. Yes, they got a stud d-man and that's fair but do you forget when they got Yzerman they were pissed they didn't get lafontaine? Let's call it for what it is, their drafting is terrible. They got zetterberg and Datsyuk in the 90s. This isn't a quality for quantity issue as in last 9 years(2003 as reference) we've surpassed them in quality and quantity. The reality is, if we kept all the players we drafted even from the last 9 years:

Pacioretty-Grabovski-Latendresse
A.Kostitsyn-Lapierre-S-Kostitsyn
D'Agostini-Leblanc-White
Wyman-Chipchura-Maxwell

Mcdonagh-Subban
Streit-O'Byrne
Emelin-Weber

Price
Halak

We almost have a full team(not a good one obviously), granted missing a few pieces, but reality is, this is a small sample as it's from 2003-2007. I could add gallagher, kristo, beaulieu, tinordi galchenyuk but I won't as they may bust for all we know.

Detroit hasn't done jack. If we kept a few of these guys we'd have an even better core than we do now. That's management, not a matter of quality drafting from detroit(which is a fallacy). They kept their core and had a winning environment, we didn't.


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