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Old
07-11-2012, 10:37 AM
  #51
Ginu
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
How's this for a comparison. The Habs as we are right now do not have the same calibre of players that any of those teams have. Everything else is semantics. I don't care why we don't or when they were drafted or by who. These are star players that were drafted and making a difference on those NHL rosters right now. Apples to apples is they have them we don't. Happy?
You obviously missed his point. They drafted top 5, until last year we didn't. You can't compare the star caliber of players drafted without looking at where they were drafted and the positions at which those teams drafted. You're being illogical.

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07-11-2012, 10:49 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
So no, I would not say that the "perennial contenders" are where they are because of their ability to find stars in the draft (which has always been the one criticism of Timmins).
But the problem is that in Montreal....it has to work that way. With the few luck we have with free agents, the fact that most players would not sign here for obvious reasons, the scrutiny, the pressure and the rest....our success needs to come from the draft. And aside from Cole, if we happen to have success, chances are it will come from the draft with Price, Subban and Pacioretty. You add a Getzlaf/Parise from 2003, a Giroux out of 2006, and our success would mostly ENTIRELY come from the draft. So most teams that do not have to find their stars through the draft are good because they were able to deal correctly and/or get the fine UFA agents. Add the once in a while very good draftee and you have yourself a great team. In Montreal, we haven't had that much success with the trades and the UFA's....hence the reason why the draft is so important. And the thing is the draft was mostly a success by Timmins which to me prooves that the past administration was mediocre to say the least.....

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07-11-2012, 10:50 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Most of Detroit's sucess has been on the backs of Lidstrom(1989) Datsyuk(1998) Zetterberg(1999) and co They don't have guys of that calibre from their younger group or on the way. wether those picks were luck or great drafting it hasn't really been sustained.
They've benefited from excellent scouting in Europe. They didn't find comparable hidden gems in North America.

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07-11-2012, 10:53 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So they say but out of those who made it a lot aren't home runs. List since 2003 shows zero home runs actually, nothing. They got stars and kept them, that's why they're good. Their drafting isn't. Their management and culture is top notch however.
I disagree, you can't keep drafting this bad for 10 years. It's like pretending you won't need it once the current cycle ends.

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07-11-2012, 10:55 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
But the problem is that in Montreal....it has to work that way. With the few luck we have with free agents, the fact that most players would not sign here for obvious reasons, the scrutiny, the pressure and the rest....our success needs to come from the draft. And aside from Cole, if we happen to have success, chances are it will come from the draft with Price, Subban and Pacioretty. You add a Getzlaf/Parise from 2003, a Giroux out of 2006, and our success would mostly ENTIRELY come from the draft. So most teams that do not have to find their stars through the draft are good because they were able to deal correctly and/or get the fine UFA agents. Add the once in a while very good draftee and you have yourself a great team. In Montreal, we haven't had that much success with the trades and the UFA's....hence the reason why the draft is so important. And the thing is the draft was mostly a success by Timmins which to me prooves that the past administration was mediocre to say the least.....
Point taken, but is it really fair to put such unrealistic expectations on the scouting staff? Maybe, as you said, it has to be that way, but if it so, I don't see how people can fault Timmins for doing the best he can under those circumstances. It also reinforces just how lucky we are to have Timmins - imagine if he were scouting for a team like NYR or Philly who have no problem attracting UFAs? They'd be unstoppable.

We'll also never really know what Montreal's problem is attracting UFAs - is it because the GMs don't go after guys hard enough? Is it because the owners don't want to spend the cash? Are we really that undesirable to free agents regardless of how much money we throw at them? All we can do is speculate.

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07-11-2012, 10:56 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
You obviously missed his point. They drafted top 5, until last year we didn't. You can't compare the star caliber of players drafted without looking at where they were drafted and the positions at which those teams drafted. You're being illogical.
No I dind't, he obviously didn't read my posts. I very clearly wrote that Galy better work out as he's a #3 and Price is a #5 but hasn't proven himself yet. That's two top 5 picks. How many do we need exactly until we have enough??

I'm fine with waiting for both of them to reach their potential but if they both don't pan out and we're still a middling team, can we still say Timmins is one of the best out there? Me thinks not.

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07-11-2012, 11:00 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
No I dind't, he obviously didn't read my posts. I very clearly wrote that Galy better work out as he's a #3 and Price is a #5 but hasn't proven himself yet. That's two top 5 picks. How many do we need exactly until we have enough??

I'm fine with waiting for both of them to reach their potential but if they both don't pan out and we're still a middling team, can we still say Timmins is one of the best out there? Me thinks not.
Yes, because more goes into a team than just drafting. Obviously. Maybe it's up to the rest of our staff (GM and pro scouts especially) to pick up the slack when drafting can't bail us out.

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07-11-2012, 11:03 AM
  #58
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He rarely chooses the BPA but he always chooses the guy with the highest chance of playing in the NHL weather it's on a fourth line or not. But Gainey hasn't helped at all to make TT looks good.

Put Grabovsky as our third line center, and we still get McDo, as we never traded for Gonzalez. This team would look like the amateur scout is a genus.

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07-11-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I disagree, you can't keep drafting this bad for 10 years. It's like pretending you won't need it once the current cycle ends.
I never said they can. All i said is they're a winning franchise (right now) because of the stars. Eventually, if they dont fix it up, it will catch up to them. Maybe they had a dry spell, who knows, but it hasnt been great lately.

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07-11-2012, 11:04 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Point taken, but is it really fair to put such unrealistic expectations on the scouting staff? Maybe, as you said, it has to be that way, but if it so, I don't see how people can fault Timmins for doing the best he can under those circumstances. It also reinforces just how lucky we are to have Timmins - imagine if he were scouting for a team like NYR or Philly who have no problem attracting UFAs? They'd be unstoppable.

We'll also never really know what Montreal's problem is attracting UFAs - is it because the GMs don't go after guys hard enough? Is it because the owners don't want to spend the cash? Are we really that undesirable to free agents regardless of how much money we throw at them? All we can do is speculate.
Well speculate is not too far from reality. We do know that it is a money issue and unless we overpay, they won't come (see Gionta and Co). Then there's the pressure, and there's also the quality of the team. Some players like to be anonymous, won't happen here etc....So there are legitimate reasons. Personnally, I'd say that if I'd be a NHL player, I'd LOVE to play here....but since I'm not, we can't really say how we'd feel if we'd be really in that position. I know that the one thing that does bother me is our inability to be a very good team. I'd really start from that. Then, when I add everything else....obviously, there's not a lot of reasons to be here. Until you feel like a Mother Teresa and feel that YOU are the missing link that will put that team back on the dynasty mode. Not sure a lot of players feel that way. So since they won't come, you draft them. And yes, it puts A LOT of pressure on him but he clearly is able to deal with that as he did it since 2003. So we are really lucky to have him. Or, without him, we finish in the bottom 5 often and even an average scouting group would be able to draft the Kane and the Toews of this world that would permit us to be on top. Yet, you would need great trades, and great signings to see this happening.

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07-11-2012, 11:10 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
No I dind't, he obviously didn't read my posts. I very clearly wrote that Galy better work out as he's a #3 and Price is a #5 but hasn't proven himself yet. That's two top 5 picks. How many do we need exactly until we have enough??

I'm fine with waiting for both of them to reach their potential but if they both don't pan out and we're still a middling team, can we still say Timmins is one of the best out there? Me thinks not.
In some respects Timmins was sabotaged by decisions made at a higher pay grade. Don't you lament what has happened to the Habs' D? The dubious trades?

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07-11-2012, 11:17 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ChoseLa View Post
He rarely chooses the BPA but he always chooses the guy with the highest chance of playing in the NHL weather it's on a fourth line or not. But Gainey hasn't helped at all to make TT looks good.

Put Grabovsky as our third line center, and we still get McDo, as we never traded for Gonzalez. This team would look like the amateur scout is a genus.
Yeah seriously

Gainey and Goat

Timmins

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07-11-2012, 11:40 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Yes, because more goes into a team than just drafting. Obviously. Maybe it's up to the rest of our staff (GM and pro scouts especially) to pick up the slack when drafting can't bail us out.
Now I disagree with that. If you draft a truly exceptional player they will perform well. Its not like management is trying to sabotage a prospect. They seem to have done well with Price, PK and Patches with the same inept management that apparently has ruined all his other picks. Seems unfair not to spread the blame around a little.

I'm sure it was management who destroyed the careers of Chipchura, Fischer, Urquhart, Carle, Maxwell etc. them sucking had nothing to do with it and Timmins bares no responsibility what so ever.


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07-11-2012, 12:32 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well speculate is not too far from reality. We do know that it is a money issue and unless we overpay, they won't come (see Gionta and Co). Then there's the pressure, and there's also the quality of the team. Some players like to be anonymous, won't happen here etc....So there are legitimate reasons. Personnally, I'd say that if I'd be a NHL player, I'd LOVE to play here....but since I'm not, we can't really say how we'd feel if we'd be really in that position. I know that the one thing that does bother me is our inability to be a very good team. I'd really start from that. Then, when I add everything else....obviously, there's not a lot of reasons to be here. Until you feel like a Mother Teresa and feel that YOU are the missing link that will put that team back on the dynasty mode. Not sure a lot of players feel that way. So since they won't come, you draft them. And yes, it puts A LOT of pressure on him but he clearly is able to deal with that as he did it since 2003. So we are really lucky to have him. Or, without him, we finish in the bottom 5 often and even an average scouting group would be able to draft the Kane and the Toews of this world that would permit us to be on top. Yet, you would need great trades, and great signings to see this happening.
Well that's one way, certainly, but I think it's ignoring our biggest weakness, which is trading and pro scouting. Let's say you have three primary means of acquiring players - drafting them, signing them, and trading for them. Timmins' one weakness to date has been the inability to draft a bonafide superstar, and we agree that for whatever reason, Montreal has trouble signing them. What about trading? Of course, trading for a superstar is no easy task - there's not a lot of them ever available at any given time, and they cost a lot. But they're out there. They've been traded in the past and there's some on the block right now. If we have a scout that can stockpile NHL-capable talents the way Timmins can, why can't we use a package of those assets to land a star, instead of trading them away for scraps in little individual trades? Who knows what a package of something like McDonagh, Latendresse and Grabovski would have ever gotten us, but I'm willing to bet it was more than what we currently have to show for their departures. That's a 2nd line centre, a 2nd/3rd line winger, and a #2 defenseman - surely we deserve better than Gomez, Pouliot and Pateryn in return.

Of course, that's revisionist history - what's done is done. But if the argument is that Timmins can draft NHLers but no stars, why not use those assets to go after the star you can't get via the draft? It's a simple matter of assessing your strengths and weaknesses and compensating in one area where you're strong in another.

This is where there's a disconnect - we have a scout who can draft solid NHLers like it's nobody's business, yet we have nothing to show for it. The scouting results are solid, it's the trading that's a disaster. How many actual NHL trades have the Habs won in the last 5 or even 10 years? Most of the trades we have won are the ones where we get draft picks. You can probably count on one hand the number of times we've made a trade for an NHL player and actually won the trade.


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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Now I disagree with that. If you draft a truly exceptional player they will perform well. Its not like management is trying to sabotage a prospect. They seem to have done well with Price, PK and Patches with the same inept management that apparently has ruined all his other picks. Seems unfair not to spread the blame around a little.

I'm sure it was management who destroyed the careers of Chipchura, Fischer, Urquhart, Carle, Maxwell etc. them sucking had nothing to do with it and Timmins bares no responsibility what so ever.
You seemed to have missed the point for roughly the 400th time in this thread. What I'm saying is that drafted players are only a part of the equation (unless you think Timmins should have a 100% success rate and our entire roster should be filled with his successes, which is the impression I'm getting). The rest of the blanks have to be filled in through trades and free agency, which is the part that falls on the shoulders of the GM and the pro scouts. Is Boston as good as a team if they don't sign Chara in free agency? Do the Canucks make the finals without trading for Luongo?

If you see that your scout is deficient in a certain area, obviously you have to make up for it with your other means - signings and trades. That's what I mean when I say that there's no way Timmins is entirely at fault for the Habs continuing to be a "middling team".

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07-11-2012, 12:58 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Well that's one way, certainly, but I think it's ignoring our biggest weakness, which is trading and pro scouting. Let's say you have three primary means of acquiring players - drafting them, signing them, and trading for them. Timmins' one weakness to date has been the inability to draft a bonafide superstar, and we agree that for whatever reason, Montreal has trouble signing them. What about trading? Of course, trading for a superstar is no easy task - there's not a lot of them ever available at any given time, and they cost a lot. But they're out there. They've been traded in the past and there's some on the block right now. If we have a scout that can stockpile NHL-capable talents the way Timmins can, why can't we use a package of those assets to land a star, instead of trading them away for scraps in little individual trades? Who knows what a package of something like McDonagh, Latendresse and Grabovski would have ever gotten us, but I'm willing to bet it was more than what we currently have to show for their departures. That's a 2nd line centre, a 2nd/3rd line winger, and a #2 defenseman - surely we deserve better than Gomez, Pouliot and Pateryn in return.

Of course, that's revisionist history - what's done is done. But if the argument is that Timmins can draft NHLers but no stars, why not use those assets to go after the star you can't get via the draft? It's a simple matter of assessing your strengths and weaknesses and compensating in one area where you're strong in another.

This is where there's a disconnect - we have a scout who can draft solid NHLers like it's nobody's business, yet we have nothing to show for it. The scouting results are solid, it's the trading that's a disaster. How many actual NHL trades have the Habs won in the last 5 or even 10 years? Most of the trades we have won are the ones where we get draft picks. You can probably count on one hand the number of times we've made a trade for an NHL player and actually won the trade.




You seemed to have missed the point for roughly the 400th time in this thread. What I'm saying is that drafted players are only a part of the equation (unless you think Timmins should have a 100% success rate and our entire roster should be filled with his successes, which is the impression I'm getting). The rest of the blanks have to be filled in through trades and free agency, which is the part that falls on the shoulders of the GM and the pro scouts. Is Boston as good as a team if they don't sign Chara in free agency? Do the Canucks make the finals without trading for Luongo?

If you see that your scout is deficient in a certain area, obviously you have to make up for it with your other means - signings and trades. That's what I mean when I say that there's no way Timmins is entirely at fault for the Habs continuing to be a "middling team".
No i think I get it quite clearly.

I'd rather draft the top end talent and sign or trade for the easier, cheaper to attain 2nd to 4th line players. You'd apparently would rather build a team by drafting 2nd to 4th liners and then try to sign or trade for the harder to get and more expensive top end talent. If that makes sense to you, then so be it.

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07-11-2012, 01:11 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
No i think I get it quite clearly.

I'd rather draft the top end talent and sign or trade for the easier, cheaper to attain 2nd to 4th line players. You'd apparently would rather build a team by drafting 2nd to 4th liners and then try to sign or trade for the harder to get and more expensive top end talent. If that makes sense to you, then so be it.
It's not how I'd rather do it, I'm asking why we don't do it. If you're going to say that we have a scout that can't land us a star player, but who can fill every other hole possible on an NHL team, why are we failing to be proactive in addressing that situation through the other means available to us? Other teams are able to, as I've shown with the Boston and Vancouver examples. Don't say it's because we don't have the assets, because clearly, we do and we have in the past. We just like to give them away for nothing.

It's about being realistic - obviously I'd like a scout who could pick out the star player in every draft regardless of where we're picking. To my knowledge, that guy doesn't exist. What we do have is a scout who has gotten more NHL games out of his draft picks than any other team in the league. That we've taken all those players and done nothing with them in terms of getting NHL-quality assets in return is the failing of the GMs we've had more than anything else.

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07-11-2012, 01:13 PM
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No i think I get it quite clearly.

I'd rather draft the top end talent and sign or trade for the easier, cheaper to attain 2nd to 4th line players. You'd apparently would rather build a team by drafting 2nd to 4th liners and then try to sign or trade for the harder to get and more expensive top end talent. If that makes sense to you, then so be it.
Timmins to Bergevin at 2013 NHL entry draft :

Timmins : ''I think Hunter Awesomestein is a no draft, he projects as an all star, perennial 40g scorer with grit and attitude''

Bergevin : ''Why, are the others so special that we shouldn't draft a star player?''

Timmins : ''OH NO! But they are sure fire 2nd liners''

Bergevin : ''Cool! Cool cool cool! Lets draft Randy McRandom then''

...

Somehow I doubt it works like that. Timmins picks who he thinks is the best player available at each pick he's given and has done a fine job so far. A vast majority of star players are selected in the top5 or top10 at the draft and top picks are hard to acquire trough trade. Since the Habs have almost always been a low seeded playoff team for two decades we've only had the opportunity to have a high pick twice.

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07-11-2012, 01:21 PM
  #68
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Wow, so much love for Detroit because of old steals like Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but not much after. Abdelkader, Helm and Filppula in this era.
Detroit typically let their players in the minors longer than other teams. This ranking (NHL games per player) isn't a good reflection of their strength.

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07-11-2012, 01:54 PM
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It's not how I'd rather do it, I'm asking why we don't do it. If you're going to say that we have a scout that can't land us a star player, but who can fill every other hole possible on an NHL team, why are we failing to be proactive in addressing that situation through the other means available to us? Other teams are able to, as I've shown with the Boston and Vancouver examples. Don't say it's because we don't have the assets, because clearly, we do and we have in the past. We just like to give them away for nothing.

It's about being realistic - obviously I'd like a scout who could pick out the star player in every draft regardless of where we're picking. To my knowledge, that guy doesn't exist. What we do have is a scout who has gotten more NHL games out of his draft picks than any other team in the league. That we've taken all those players and done nothing with them in terms of getting NHL-quality assets in return is the failing of the GMs we've had more than anything else.
Maybe I'm over simplifying it now but correct me if I'm wrong here. There are superstars in the NHL and they were all scouted and picked by scouts. So there are in fact scouts who can identify superstar players. I'm not just talking about 1st overall either. There are many amazing players who were picked outside of the top 5 or top 10 as well as outside of the 1st round who are considered "Star" players.

What I've said for the hundreth time in this thread if anyone would bother to read them is yes, Timmins has done a great job so far BUT with great success comes great expectations. He's picked in the top 3 this year and Price as a top 5. I HOPE they pan out because IF they don't Timmins will be held responsible. I really don't see what's so inflammatory about this statement. Maybe you're all a little too over protective of Timmins or too sensitive but really, this isn't something that's antogonistic AT ALL.

Timmins has picked more middling NHLers than anyone else thus far, great! But he hasn't drafted a true bona fida super star. This again, is not inflammatory, it's his body of work. He's great at picking NHLers but hasn't hit a homerun yet. This was his year to shine and he wanted and got Galy. Let's hope for the sake of the habs he hit one out of the park but if he didn't then he should be questioned.

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07-11-2012, 02:16 PM
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Maybe I'm over simplifying it now but correct me if I'm wrong here. There are superstars in the NHL and they were all scouted and picked by scouts. So there are in fact scouts who can identify superstar players. I'm not just talking about 1st overall either. There are many amazing players who were picked outside of the top 5 or top 10 as well as outside of the 1st round who are considered "Star" players.
Yes, I agree 100% of course. And for all we know, Timmins has already found his stars, depending on how McDonagh, Pacioretty and Subban continue to develop. Those are by far his three best non-top 10 picks and they all look very good right now with the potential to get even better.

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What I've said for the hundreth time in this thread if anyone would bother to read them is yes, Timmins has done a great job so far BUT with great success comes great expectations. He's picked in the top 3 this year and Price as a top 5. I HOPE they pan out because IF they don't Timmins will be held responsible. I really don't see what's so inflammatory about this statement. Maybe you're all a little too over protective of Timmins or too sensitive but really, this isn't something that's antogonistic AT ALL.
Who's inflamed? This is a message board - the things you say are going to be debated and argued. And of course Timmins should be held responsible if Price and Galchenyuk don't pan out, I wouldn't argue that.

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Timmins has picked more middling NHLers than anyone else thus far, great! But he hasn't drafted a true bona fida super star. This again, is not inflammatory, it's his body of work. He's great at picking NHLers but hasn't hit a homerun yet. This was his year to shine and he wanted and got Galy. Let's hope for the sake of the habs he hit one out of the park but if he didn't then he should be questioned.
Well if you discount the three potential homeruns I listed above, yes I agree that Timmins has yet to pick a bonafide, hands down, no questions asked, superstar. But my argument is that instead of looking to put the blame on Timmins, we should be putting the blame on the organization for failing to use the assets he did get us to better our team.

Timmins has done extraordinary work for us and given us more than enough assets to go out and get a star player, even if he failed to pick that star player himself. That should count for something, in my view.

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07-11-2012, 02:23 PM
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shutehinside
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Yes, I agree 100% of course. And for all we know, Timmins has already found his stars, depending on how McDonagh, Pacioretty and Subban continue to develop. Those are by far his three best non-top 10 picks and they all look very good right now with the potential to get even better.



Who's inflamed? This is a message board - the things you say are going to be debated and argued. And of course Timmins should be held responsible if Price and Galchenyuk don't pan out, I wouldn't argue that.



Well if you discount the three potential homeruns I listed above, yes I agree that Timmins has yet to pick a bonafide, hands down, no questions asked, superstar. But my argument is that instead of looking to put the blame on Timmins, we should be putting the blame on the organization for failing to use the assets he did get us to better our team.

Timmins has done extraordinary work for us and given us more than enough assets to go out and get a star player, even if he failed to pick that star player himself. That should count for something, in my view.
I say the blame should be spread out. No one has no responsibility. As good as Timmins has been, he'd be the first to say he muffed up a we picks. There's nothing wrong with that. He is human and can make a mistake and has in the past. This glorification is exactly what I'm talking about. He's not perfect but saying otherwise puts you at odds with many posters who think you're bashing him or argue why I'm questioning his brilliance and that it's all managements fault that Chipchura, Fischer etc didn't pan out. He's good but he can be better. Hopefully the players you mentioned and Galy pan out, because again, if they don't he'll be highly scrutinized.

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07-11-2012, 02:29 PM
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I never said they can. All i said is they're a winning franchise (right now) because of the stars. Eventually, if they dont fix it up, it will catch up to them. Maybe they had a dry spell, who knows, but it hasnt been great lately.
I was disagreeing on the quality of the organization. Sure they have class, but if one of the things that makes you win(drafting) is in such bad shape, class will only take you so far. They are riding their home-runs still, well see how they do in the post-Lidstrom world.

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07-11-2012, 02:29 PM
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Who says Timmins can't draft star players?

Is it the same fans who say they wouldn't trade PK Subban for Drew Doughty?

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07-11-2012, 02:42 PM
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I can't think of any team that consistently drafts star players outside of the top-10.

Let's look at the top-15 forwards in the NHL, defined as the top-13 forwards for point production this season + Sidney Crosby + Alex Ovechkin:

Evgeni Malkin, 2nd overall,
Steven Stamkos, 1st overall,
Sidney Crosby, 1st overall,
Claude Giroux, 22nd overall,
Jason Spezza, 2nd overall,
Ilya Kovalchuk, 1st overall,
Phil Kessel, 5th overall,
Henrik Sedin, 3rd overall,
Daniel Sedin, 2nd overall,
James Neal, 33rd overall,
John Tavares, 1st overall,
Patrik Elias, 51st overall,
Joe Thoronton, 1st overall,
Alex Ovechkin, 1st overall,
Ray Whitney, 23rd overall,

Why didn't Timmins draft any of these guys? He sux0rZ !!!!

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07-11-2012, 03:03 PM
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I don`t see how anyone can say we are bad at drafting. We are one of the best period. We have made the playoffs many times. Did we win a stanley cup? No but what about the other teams that are really good at drafting.

As for the arguement about quantity over quality please go back and hide under your rocks. Max Pacioretty had 65 points!!!! Leading scorer on our team!!! 23 YEARS OLD!!! wake up people. Pk Subban 36 points +9 oh he`s just quantity. Then there is Carey Price I don`t have to mention anything... oh wait he was a top 5 pick he doesn`t count... *weeps*

Louis Leblanc is 21 years old put up 10 points in 42 games so he was on pace for close to 20 points in his rookie year. He still has time to become a quality NHLer.

We also have 3 defenseman who could end up being a huge part of this team in Tinordi, Beaulieu and Ellis.

We had 1 bad year and all of a sudden our propect pool sucks. Timmins drafts quantity over quality and the world is on fire.

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