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Old
07-11-2012, 07:46 PM
  #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Well Leetch did start losing his legs during the mid 90's. His decline in mobility really hurt his defensive game.
That would make sense if his decline were more gradual.

But the change was really night and day and remained so until the Rangers attempted to recreate the system of old when Messier came back. His number jumped considerably, although at that point, the team around him wasn't any better constructed for success.

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07-11-2012, 07:47 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by jskramer83 View Post
The two you mentioned are top line forwards, there are plenty of decent second liners available;

Doan is a 1st liner, Kostitsyn is a second line talent, sykora scored 20 goals, Mueller is a good second liner, Huselius if healthy is a second liner, hell worst case take a two contract shot at Cheecho

We adding a Top 3 talent is not a must. Adding a low top 6, 20 goal or 40 point talent to put on our third line would make a huge difference in our scoring from last year, and a big upgrade over boyle or Mitchell on the third line
yes, but should we really use cap space for guys that quite frankly aren't that good just for the 3rd line? Or several year deals?

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07-11-2012, 07:47 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
That would make sense if his decline were more gradual.

But the change was really night and day and remained so until the Rangers attempted to recreate the system of old when Messier came back. His number jumped considerably, although at that point, the team around him wasn't any better constructed for success.
I think it was a bit of both to be honest.

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07-11-2012, 07:51 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
yes, but should we really use cap space for guys that quite frankly aren't that good just for the 3rd line? Or several year deals?
If they are asking for anything more then a 1 yr deal for prust money $3 mill I'm out. Personally I wouldn't offer anything more then 2.5, but I don't think that would get anyone at that level.

Either way not much of a cap hit, and would give us more scoring them last year. Adding 10 goals to our total puts us in the top 7 in goals last year, add 20 we are in top 5, just a little depth is all we need.

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07-11-2012, 07:53 PM
  #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I think it was a bit of both to be honest.
I'll agree, he did age a little faster than I expected.

But the real drop really came in his assists, at least in the late 90s. So it wasn't that his wheels prevented him from scoring goals, it seemed more that his style just didn't mesh in a system that the Rangers were trying to implement.

Leetch's 70-80 point seasons were always going to be much heavier on assists. With no one to finish, and in the wrong system, the assists and the point totals fell sharply.

I view Nash in a somewhat similar fashion. A trainwreck team, a system that doesn't fit, and thus an inability to utilize his greatest strength - goals.

And make no mistake, Nash is nowhere near as good of a forward as Leetch was a defenseman.

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07-11-2012, 07:54 PM
  #981
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Semin...Doan

Looks like we have 2% chance of signing Doan.

Does the team take a chance on Semin?

I say not, wait a year and hopefully pick up someone next summer.

Regardless, this has been a most frustrating time as a NYR fan where we have little chance to improve the team.

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07-11-2012, 07:57 PM
  #982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I'll agree, he did age a little faster than I expected.

But the real drop really came in his assists, at least in the late 90s. So it wasn't that his wheels prevented him from scoring goals, it seemed more that his style just didn't mesh in a system that the Rangers were trying to implement.

Leetch's 70-80 point seasons were always going to be much heavier on assists. With no one to finish, and in the wrong system, the assists and the point totals fell sharply.

I view Nash in a somewhat similar fashion. A trainwreck team, a system that doesn't fit, and thus an inability to utilize his greatest strength - goals.

And make no mistake, Nash is nowhere near as good of a forward as Leetch was a defenseman.
No, I am not talking about offensive side of the game. I am saying the decline of his skating REALLY effected his defensive/transition game.

Leetch's defense came mainly through his mobility, when that started to go, he just wasn't as reliable on the backend.

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07-11-2012, 07:57 PM
  #983
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I hate when nothing actually happens and this whole thread is arguments. I'm Doan reading these arguments about Semin and Nash.

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07-11-2012, 07:59 PM
  #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskramer83 View Post
If they are asking for anything more then a 1 yr deal for prust money $3 mill I'm out. Personally I wouldn't offer anything more then 2.5, but I don't think that would get anyone at that level.

Either way not much of a cap hit, and would give us more scoring them last year. Adding 10 goals to our total puts us in the top 7 in goals last year, add 20 we are in top 5, just a little depth is all we need.
imo we have plenty of goals to get is through the regular season. It's in the playoffs a guy like Nash would be extremely welcomed. A game changer talented enough to create offense on his own

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07-11-2012, 08:00 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Everyday Im Hagelin View Post
I hate when nothing actually happens and this whole thread is arguments. I'm Doan reading these arguments about Semin and Nash.
i completely agree with this

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Old
07-11-2012, 08:03 PM
  #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
No, I am not talking about offensive side of the game. I am saying the decline of his skating REALLY effected his defensive/transition game.
I agree, somewhat.

It's hard to say because those teams from 98-2004 were such train wrecks. The systems, the pairings, the groupings were just awful. Leetch was lost.

I also think that some of what you are talking about was the lose of Beukeboom. Say what we will about talent or flaws, he and Beukeboom simply clicked. And in a team sport, two guys clicking often trumps any scouting report or intellectual rationalization. The two of them just worked.

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07-11-2012, 08:03 PM
  #987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
imo we have plenty of goals to get is through the regular season. It's in the playoffs a guy like Nash would be extremely welcomed. A game changer talented enough to create offense on his own
If all worked out to plan you are right, problem is we really don't know how Nash will perform under pressure.

Wasn't he even taken off Crosby's line in the Olympics, cause he wasn't creating enough, I may be wrong but I think I remember this?

He just has no history in big games or in the playoffs, which is usually a red flag.

Actually just noticed wolski signed a 1 year 600 k deal, if a guy like Huselius is open to that I'd do it in a second. He'd also have something to prove.

Off topic but tonight on NHL network they a playing the rangers Ottawa series, game six is on now. Much more enjoyable watching this after the fact?

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07-11-2012, 08:04 PM
  #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everyday Im Hagelin View Post
I hate when nothing actually happens and this whole thread is arguments. I'm Doan reading these arguments about Semin and Nash.
It's be a pretty boring board if we only talked about transactions.

Only so much you can discuss about Jeff Halpern.

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07-11-2012, 08:07 PM
  #989
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Doan be hasty, think it over for awhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Everyday Im Hagelin View Post
I hate when nothing actually happens and this whole thread is arguments. I'm Doan reading these arguments about Semin and Nash.

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07-11-2012, 08:08 PM
  #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
It's be a pretty boring board if we only talked about transactions.

Only so much you can discuss about Jeff Halpern.
That's what GDT's are for though. I hate the off-season because nothing is exciting unless something happens, whereas games are full of excitement and you post while watching.

No signings = boring board during the off-season. That's all.

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07-11-2012, 08:09 PM
  #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everyday Im Hagelin View Post
I hate when nothing actually happens and this whole thread is arguments. I'm Doan reading these arguments about Semin and Nash.

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07-11-2012, 08:10 PM
  #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskramer83 View Post
Wish I had your confidence, what in particular makes you so sure?
What, exactly, makes you think he won't thrive? Do people honestly believe he'll get worse here? If he can put up 59 points in Columbus, I see no reason to believe he won't at least hit that number again.

Quote:
The two you mentioned are top line forwards, there are plenty of decent second liners available;

Doan is a 1st liner, Kostitsyn is a second line talent, sykora scored 20 goals, Mueller is a good second liner, Huselius if healthy is a second liner, hell worst case take a two contract shot at Cheecho
Doan is a first liner in Phoenix. He's a second liner at best here. He's 35 years old and on the decline. If he wanted a two year deal, great, but the rumors point to him wanting a longer deal (and probably a NMC to boot). No thanks.

Do you think Kostitsyn will take a contract offer around $4M/yr to come play here, where his coach will ride his ass every time he does something moronic on and off the ice? Yeah, right. I'd avoid this guy like the plague, anyway. He eclipsed fifty points the same year his contract was up for renewal, got a sweet new deal and proceeded to score fewer points the next season. He seems to be a reclamation project - something we don't need.

Sykora, yet another 35 year old forward on his last legs. If you want to count on guys his age to produce at a top six level, go right ahead. I'd rather go after a younger option. Forwards above 35 are no guarantee to produce at a top six level. We'd be paying a premium for a guy to finish his career in our bottom six.

Mueller is a reclamation project with one consistent attribute - he always gets hurt. Why would you roll the dice on a guy who may be lucky to play half a season with us? He could be cheap but he's hardly a surefire solution to our top six scoring woes.

Huselius is another injury case. Again, why would anyone count on him to stay healthy and produce at a top six level? He is hardly the solution to the problem.

I won't even dignify Cheechoo with comment. We need solutions to our scoring problem, specifically in the top six. You're so terrified of losing a decent prospect in a trade or getting too close to the cap that you'd rather roll the dice on over the hill forwards (who, incidentally, will not come cheap) and reclamation projects.

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07-11-2012, 08:12 PM
  #993
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Does anyone think Getzlaf becomes a possibility, either via trade or FA signing?

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07-11-2012, 08:12 PM
  #994
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Doan'cha know we're sick of discussing the same thing about Nash over and over again

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07-11-2012, 08:14 PM
  #995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everyday Im Hagelin View Post
That's what GDT's are for though. I hate the off-season because nothing is exciting unless something happens, whereas games are full of excitement and you post while watching.

No signings = boring board during the off-season. That's all.
I like a lot of the different discussions and points of view we have when discussing possible players.

I like it a heck of a lot better than pointless trade proposals, 30 posters under the age of 21 trying to be the class clown and posting their "funniest" zingers, newbies posting 75 times a day and yet having nothing to say, and other of the often trivial stuff.

Even points of view I don't agree with often have some really excellent points and highlight the uniqueness of trying to construct a team that is capable of winning a cup.

At the end of the day, as hockey fans, it's all we've got in July. And yet, I kind of like it.

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07-11-2012, 08:14 PM
  #996
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Wait a year and see where we are at that point...next season might be a complete wash anyways...might be the best move we could make . I like Nash...but just have that bad feeling about trading the youth even though I would like to win it all ASAP although I think that would be tough with the holes we need filled . I have flip flopped on this a few times...it is tough ! If we could just get Dubi going and fix our forsaken PP we would not need a Nash .

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07-11-2012, 08:16 PM
  #997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDoctorLies View Post
What, exactly, makes you think he won't thrive? Do people honestly believe he'll get worse here? If he can put up 59 points in Columbus, I see no reason to believe he won't at least hit that number again.



Doan is a first liner in Phoenix. He's a second liner at best here. He's 35 years old and on the decline. If he wanted a two year deal, great, but the rumors point to him wanting a longer deal (and probably a NMC to boot). No thanks.

Do you think Kostitsyn will take a contract offer around $4M/yr to come play here, where his coach will ride his ass every time he does something moronic on and off the ice? Yeah, right. I'd avoid this guy like the plague, anyway. He eclipsed fifty points the same year his contract was up for renewal, got a sweet new deal and proceeded to score fewer points the next season. He seems to be a reclamation project - something we don't need.

Sykora, yet another 35 year old forward on his last legs. If you want to count on guys his age to produce at a top six level, go right ahead. I'd rather go after a younger option. Forwards above 35 are no guarantee to produce at a top six level. We'd be paying a premium for a guy to finish his career in our bottom six.

Mueller is a reclamation project with one consistent attribute - he always gets hurt. Why would you roll the dice on a guy who may be lucky to play half a season with us? He could be cheap but he's hardly a surefire solution to our top six scoring woes.

Huselius is another injury case. Again, why would anyone count on him to stay healthy and produce at a top six level? He is hardly the solution to the problem.

I won't even dignify Cheechoo with comment. We need solutions to our scoring problem, specifically in the top six. You're so terrified of losing a decent prospect in a trade or getting too close to the cap that you'd rather roll the dice on over the hill forwards (who, incidentally, will not come cheap) and reclamation projects.
I agree Nash will likely put up 59 points, but that is not worth giving up Stepan and Hagelin for. I also have no problem signing a injury prone guy or reclamation project for cheep to play on the third line. Look wolski just signed 1 yr for 600k.

Adding a 30 goal scorer but giving up two 15 doesn't help scoring depth. It staying status quo, but adding salary. Nash isn't some sort of generational player, which if we don't get now will never see a player of his caliber again. Matter of fact there will probably be better players available trade deadline this year, with the free agent crop coming up wouldn't be surprised to se iginla trade at the deadline as a rental

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07-11-2012, 08:23 PM
  #998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskramer83 View Post
I agree Nash will likely put up 59 points, but that is not worth giving up Stepan and Hagelin for. I also have no problem signing a injury prone guy or reclamation project for cheep to play on the third line. Look wolski just signed 1 yr for 600k.

Adding a 30 goal scorer but giving up two 15 doesn't help scoring depth. It staying status quo, but adding salary. Nash isn't some sort of generational player, which if we don't get now will never see a player of his caliber again. Matter of fact there will probably be better players available trade deadline this year, with the free agent crop coming up wouldn't be surprised to se iginla trade at the deadline as a rental
That's not necessarily true, if Nash replaces one of those 15 goal scores and another 15 goal scorer replaces the other it's a net gain of 15 goals.

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07-11-2012, 08:23 PM
  #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everyday Im Hagelin View Post
That's what GDT's are for though. I hate the off-season because nothing is exciting unless something happens, whereas games are full of excitement and you post while watching.

No signings = boring board during the off-season. That's all.
Think it's boring now? Just wait until early to mid August. Then there will be absolutely nothing to talk about.

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07-11-2012, 08:24 PM
  #1000
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Panthers sign Peter Mueller per Renaud Lavoie. One year deal at 1.725M. If he is healthy, this is another great gamble.

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