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Bobby Ryan to Pittsburgh

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Old
07-11-2012, 09:23 PM
  #51
Exit Dose
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Yeah, and the Pens had the 4th best shots against per game in the playoffs last year. Shots against is not a reliable indication of defense, because it only measures quantity and not quality.

Whatever the Ducks' goaltending issues, their defense is a weakness. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
Tell me then, what are we supposed to use to measure the effectiveness? I think a combination of 10th best shots allowed, 21st save percentage, and 12th worst opposing save percentage paints a fairly clear picture of the problems this team had last year - one that matches the team I saw.

Perhaps you can enlighten me where the declarative statement originates from. How many Ducks games did you watch? What is your basis for claiming that, exactly?

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Of the past 2 drafts ('10 and '11), only 3 defensemen have played NHL games. If Lindholm makes the NHL within the next couple years, he'll be in the overwhelming minority, even for high draftees.

If he bucks the trend and forces his way into the line-up, great for you. But it wouldn't seem like a prudent move to pencil a teenager into the line-up.

I get it though, Ducks fans don't want any defense prospects. We'll see if the pipeline justifies your confidence in the coming years.
This is a straw man. I didn't say that penciling him into the line-up is what should be done. I didn't even imply that was what was happening. I said that our team feels he's ready to compete for a spot. Few prospects in our pool have been granted that sort of confidence. For instance, I think our team is more interested in Wellinski competing for a spot at the U-20 camp this summer than they are for him to compete for a spot on the Ducks. The only two defensemen in recent memory that were encouraged that way were Fowler and Schultz.

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Old
07-11-2012, 09:28 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
The Ducks also had a goaltender who suffered from vertigo the first half of the season. And if they had given up 10 fewer goals would have been 11th in goals against. They weren't as bad as the numbers appear. And Fleury was horrible in the playoffs, those weren't by and large quality chances he was watching go by him.
Not to mention that comparing a sample size of six games to eighty-two is ridic.

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07-11-2012, 09:46 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Tell me then, what are we supposed to use to measure the effectiveness? I think a combination of 10th best shots allowed, 21st save percentage, and 12th worst opposing save percentage paints a fairly clear picture of the problems this team had last year - one that matches the team I saw.

Perhaps you can enlighten me where the declarative statement originates from. How many Ducks games did you watch? What is your basis for claiming that, exactly?
I don't keep track of how many opposing team games I watch. Would my argument would carry more weight if I said I watched every single one?

The Ducks' GA numbers were indicative of the defense that I saw whenever I saw them play, and the make-up of their blueline. But you clearly have a different opinion. Time will tell whether the Ducks defense has what it takes in the coming years.

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This is a straw man. I didn't say that penciling him into the line-up is what should be done. I didn't even imply that was what was happening. I said that our team feels he's ready to compete for a spot. Few prospects in our pool have been granted that sort of confidence. For instance, I think our team is more interested in Wellinski competing for a spot at the U-20 camp this summer than they are for him to compete for a spot on the Ducks. The only two defensemen in recent memory that were encouraged that way were Fowler and Schultz.
It's no straw man. You found it funny when I said he was likely years away, which presumably means you have expectations of him making the roster sooner.

And frankly, it's no surprise that a guy whose highest level of competition to date is the USHL isn't being encouraged to fight for an NHL roster spot.

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07-11-2012, 10:02 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jahodac View Post
Expect the Penguins to give Bennett and Tangradi a shot on the big team and probably try to make a play for Semin/Doan if they haven't already.
You do know their coach is Bylsma, right? Expect more of the same: less-skilled, blue-collar veterans will get the majority of the playing time while the young guys "earn their keep" and get minimal playing time on any line resembling something you'd call a "scoring" line.

Oh, and like it's been said on numerous threads: Bobby Ryan is a perfect fit to be a wing, but the Pens don't have the right pieces to give for Anaheim to consider trading him.

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07-11-2012, 10:21 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't keep track of how many opposing team games I watch. Would my argument would carry more weight if I said I watched every single one?

The Ducks' GA numbers were indicative of the defense that I saw whenever I saw them play, and the make-up of their blueline. But you clearly have a different opinion. Time will tell whether the Ducks defense has what it takes in the coming years.

It's no straw man. You found it funny when I said he was likely years away, which presumably means you have expectations of him making the roster sooner.

And frankly, it's no surprise that a guy whose highest level of competition to date is the USHL isn't being encouraged to fight for an NHL roster spot.
Asking how familiar you are with a subject is absolutely important. For instance, I wouldn't presume to diagnose Winnipeg's problems based on the two games of theirs I watched last year. It doesn't have to be an exact number; I'll accept a ballpark estimate.

"But it wouldn't seem like a prudent move to pencil a teenager into the line-up."
That is the straw man.

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07-11-2012, 10:27 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Asking how familiar you are with a subject is absolutely important. For instance, I wouldn't presume to diagnose Winnipeg's problems based on the two games of theirs I watched last year. It doesn't have to be an exact number; I'll accept a ballpark estimate.
Probably a little over a half dozen. Commence criticism based on my relative lack of viewings.

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"But it wouldn't seem like a prudent move to pencil a teenager into the line-up."
That is the straw man.
So, if my suggestion that Lindholm will likely take years to make the NHL is "funny", then what's the alternative?

You either make the team or you don't, friend.

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07-11-2012, 10:32 PM
  #57
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I wouldn't trade Letang alone for Ryan. He's a #1 D-Man. That's usually worth more.
Thats the only thing the Pens can offer that would even spark interest to the Ducks, so realistically the Pens cannot get Ryan. Lets move to the next "Superstar player to the Pens" thread.

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07-11-2012, 10:38 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Probably a little over a half dozen. Commence criticism based on my relative lack of viewings.
We have a baseline. Now, tell me, what specific problems did you see with the defense during those viewings? Since you brought up the make-up, how about a break down of that, too?

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So, if the suggestion that Lindholm will likely take years to make the NHL is "funny", then what's the alternative?

You either make the team or you don't, friend.
If he isn't ready to make it now, it doesn't mean that he's expected to take 'years' to get to that point.

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07-11-2012, 10:38 PM
  #59
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Can you give a list of 5 centreman that a trade can be built around. Then we can see what they could add.

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07-11-2012, 10:43 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
We have a baseline. Now, tell me, what specific problems did you see with the defense during those viewings? Since you brought up the make-up, how about a break down of that, too?
Sounds extensive. Tomorrow.

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If he isn't ready to make it now, it doesn't mean that he's expected to take 'years' to get to that point.
I specifically mentioned how players in the last couple drafts had made the NHL - 3. If Lindholm isn't in the very select group of teen defensemen who make the NHL, then he'd have to be at least 3 years out, wouldn't he?

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07-11-2012, 10:53 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I specifically mentioned how players in the last couple drafts had made the NHL - 3. If Lindholm isn't in the very select group of teen defensemen who make the NHL, then he'd have to be at least 3 years out, wouldn't he?
Not really. Palmieri missed the cut in camp last year, and found his way up in the last half of the season. Smith-Pelly missed the cut in his first year, and secured a spot in his second shot. We don't have spots open. He may be close enough to consider a spot, but lose out for a season of polishing. Bear in mind, we may not even get to make that choice since he's already said that he'd prefer to finish out his contract with Rogle. The entire reason why we're asking him to put those plans on hold is that he was one of the best prospects at camp, after Holland and competing with Etem for second best.

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07-11-2012, 11:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Not really. Palmieri missed the cut in camp last year, and found his way up in the last half of the season. Smith-Pelly missed the cut in his first year, and secured a spot in his second shot. We don't have spots open. He may be close enough to consider a spot, but lose out for a season of polishing. Bear in mind, we may not even get to make that choice since he's already said that he'd prefer to finish out his contract with Rogle.
That's moot. Despres saw duty for Pittsburgh late in the year, but nobody would say he secured a roster spot last season (even if he played well enough to). We didn't have spots open either.

It's exceedingly rare for teenage defensemen to secure NHL roster spots, so suggesting that Lindholm (who many considered a reach at #6) is a few years out is anything but laughable. In fact, it's the most reasonable outcome.

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The entire reason why we're asking him to put those plans on hold is that he was one of the best prospects at camp, after Holland and competing with Etem for second best.
Shouldn't he be?

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07-12-2012, 12:12 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That's moot. Despres saw duty for Pittsburgh late in the year, but nobody would say he secured a roster spot last season (even if he played well enough to). We didn't have spots open either.

It's exceedingly rare for teenage defensemen to secure NHL roster spots, so suggesting that Lindholm (who many considered a reach at #6) is a few years out is anything but laughable. In fact, it's the most reasonable outcome.
Despres wasn't seen as someone that was expected to make the jump soon after his draft. Yes, it is exceedingly rare for a defenseman to make that jump within two tryouts. I wasn't trying to say otherwise, but we aren't talking about a generality, we're talking about a specific player. I assume that was expected based on his well rounded skill set, the endurance he showed at the combine - remember he topped everyone in the VO2 Max by significant margin, and how strong he played against competition in a men's league.

I have no idea what not having a spot has anything to do with readiness. If you had an opening, then Despres would be there if he had passed his audition. Palmieri didn't do that; his skating still needed work.

I never said that I expected him to accomplish that, but clearly our coaches and scouts, and a few others that have followed him, do think that's a reasonable outcome. Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't McGuire say as much when we picked him?

Edit: I just realized that you're using 2011 as an example of players not making it in their first year after their draft, not only is saying there were 'three' wrong, there are four from those two years, but it's kind of difficult to say that about a player in 2011 when they haven't had the opportunity to join their team after one season. If you take 2009 and 2010, the two most recent classes to have that opportunity, you get six that did. Around nine players did it in the 2008 class, alone.
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Shouldn't he be?
Well, aren't you the passive aggressive one.


Last edited by Exit Dose: 07-12-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Old
07-12-2012, 02:45 AM
  #64
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Can you give a list of 5 centreman that a trade can be built around. Then we can see what they could add.
These are the ones that I would feel comfortable trading bobby for.

Krejci
Pavelski
Stastny/duchene
Stepan
Wilson
Henrique
Coturier/Schenn


Some with significant +'s

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07-12-2012, 02:51 AM
  #65
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this ship has sailed. the Pens don't have what it takes to get Ryan anymore. his name is Staal.

also trololol at Letang + for Ryan. it would be easily Ryan + and a pretty consistant plus.

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07-12-2012, 02:54 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
These are the ones that I would feel comfortable trading bobby for.

Krejci
Pavelski
Stastny/duchene
Stepan
Wilson
Henrique
Coturier/Schenn


Some with significant +'s
Wilson has stuck to wing for a while, now. Long enough that he should be considered one. Smith is the guy that's shooting for top-six center.

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07-12-2012, 04:58 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
More like Letang + pouliot for ryan
#1 Dmen are worth more than 1st line wingers.

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Old
07-12-2012, 05:28 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Human View Post
this ship has sailed. the Pens don't have what it takes to get Ryan anymore. his name is Staal.
still not convinced Staal would be enough for the Ducks to trade Ryan. i don't think any Ducks fans argued this, but when the Staal to Carolina rumors were floating around early on, some were "brilliant" enough to suggest that Staal for Sutter alone is fair because Staal was a third line center in Pittsburgh...

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07-12-2012, 05:40 AM
  #69
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I think Staal's extension would have been the stumbling block in a Staal for Ryan deal.

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07-12-2012, 05:48 AM
  #70
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Any interest in :

Brooks Orpik + Dustin Jeffrey + Beau Bennett + pick ..or something similar ???

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07-12-2012, 06:27 AM
  #71
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Any interest in :

Brooks Orpik + Dustin Jeffrey + Beau Bennett + pick ..or something similar ???
No. That could be topped by 15 other teams.

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07-12-2012, 06:28 AM
  #72
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Any interest in :

Brooks Orpik + Dustin Jeffrey + Beau Bennett + pick ..or something similar ???
No interest in Jeffrey and Bennett, well not for Ryan. I would have loved to add Orpik before we went into free agency, but after signing Allen, Souray, and Beauchemin for three years a piece, I think the blue line is set. Right or wrong, it sounds like Murray felt that way, too. Supposedly, we contacted Parise during the hysteria but not Suter.

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07-12-2012, 06:36 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
No interest in Jeffrey and Bennett, well not for Ryan. I would have loved to add Orpik before we went into free agency, but after signing Allen, Souray, and Beauchemin for three years a piece, I think the blue line is set. Right or wrong, it sounds like Murray felt that way, too. Supposedly, we contacted Parise during the hysteria but not Suter.
Really? Why would you need another first line winger?

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07-12-2012, 06:46 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by SinfulCobraZ View Post
Really? Why would you need another first line winger?
Contrary to the popular perception, Ryan doesn't spend most of the season on the top line. The RPG line is something that only works every now and then. So, most of the time there's a vacancy at left wing on the top line.

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07-12-2012, 07:08 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by SinfulCobraZ View Post
Really? Why would you need another first line winger?
Parise-getzlaf-perry
Ryan-bonino/holland-Palmieri

DSP-getzlaf-perry
Parise-bonino/holland-Ryan


Or sign parise and trade bobby

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