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Inaccuracies in the NHL record? Henri Richard's phantom game

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Old
07-12-2012, 09:04 AM
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Theokritos
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Inaccuracies in the NHL record? Henri Richard's phantom game

Researching Henri Richard's performance in 1961-1962 I discovered what looks like an inaccuracy in the NHL record. And I'm not talking about different shot counting or assist counting in different arenas.

According to the record Henri Richard played in 54 games out of 70 in the 1961-62 NHL season. hockey-reference.com, hockeydb.com and other websites have the same number - no surprise, they base their data on the NHL record.
NHL player profil: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8448320.
NHL season overview: http://www.nhl.com/ice/historicalsta...ion=S&country=

I was surprised to discover Henri Richard seems to have missed 17 games that season. If the NHL record was accurate, he must only have missed 70-54=16 games. Let's look into it:

-Henri Richard missed the last 11 games of the regular season. He got hit by Marcel Pronovost of the Detroit Red Wings on March 3rd 1961 and broke his arm. The injury put Richard on the sideline for the rest of the regular season (games 60-70 of the Canadiens' schedule) and the playoffs. This is an undisputed fact, no controversial issue so far. Still a source from 1962: Montreal Gazette, March 5th, Page 17 and esp.18 (I can't generate an automatic link to either page for whatever reason): http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en
Take a look at the schedule. Game 59 (bolded) is the one in which Richard got injured. Games 60-70 are the ones which he had to sit out because of the injury:

Schedule (courtesy of http://www.hockey-reference.com/team...962_games.html)
59 Sat, Mar 3, 1962 Detroit Red Wings T 2 2 35 11 13 T 2 - Injury
60 Sun, Mar 4, 1962 @ Chicago Black Hawks L 2 5 35 12 13 L 1
61 Thu, Mar 8, 1962 Toronto Maple Leafs T 1 1 35 12 14 T 1
62 Sat, Mar 10, 1962 Boston Bruins W 5 2 36 12 14 W 1
63 Sun, Mar 11, 1962 @ New York Rangers W 2 1 37 12 14 W 2
64 Wed, Mar 14, 1962 @ Toronto Maple Leafs L 2 5 37 13 14 L 1
65 Thu, Mar 15, 1962 Chicago Black Hawks W 6 5 38 13 14 W 1
66 Sat, Mar 17, 1962 New York Rangers W 2 0 39 13 14 W 2
67 Sun, Mar 18, 1962 @ Boston Bruins L 2 6 39 14 14 L 1
68 Thu, Mar 22, 1962 Toronto Maple Leafs W 4 1 40 14 14 W 1
69 Sat, Mar 24, 1962 Chicago Black Hawks W 5 3 41 14 14 W 2
70 Sun, Mar 25, 1962 @ Detroit Red Wings W 5 2 42 14 14 W 3

Now to the controversial issue. According to the official NHL record there are 5 other games Richard missed in the same season. However, I think the evidence shows he actually missed 6 additional games, not 5.

-Richard had a "clash" with Dollard St.Laurent of the Chicago Blackhawks on December 21st and suffered a groin injury. Source: Montreal Gazette 1961, December 22nd (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...7082%2C4162499).
The game he picked up this injury was game 31 in the schedule:

31 Thu, Dec 21, 1961 Chicago Black Hawks L 3 4 16 7 8 L 2 - Injury
32 Sat, Dec 23, 1961 Detroit Red Wings W 6 1 17 7 8 W 1
33 Mon, Dec 25, 1961 @ Boston Bruins W 5 2 18 7 8 W 2
34 Wed, Dec 27, 1961 @ New York Rangers W 3 0 19 7 8 W 3
35 Sat, Dec 30, 1961 Chicago Black Hawks T 4 4 19 7 9 T 1
36 Mon, Jan 1, 1962 @ Chicago Black Hawks L 0 2 19 8 9 L 1
37 Wed, Jan 3, 1962 @ Toronto Maple Leafs L 1 3 19 9 9 L 2
38 Sat, Jan 6, 1962 New York Rangers W 5 1 20 9 9 W 1 - Back in action

Here's the evidence that Richard missed games 32-37 as suggested in the schedule above:

Saturday 12/23: Game 32 (vs Detroit) - first game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 26th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...09%2C4539019): "Center Henri Richard...missed Saturday night's game after being hurt last Thursday against Chicago."

Monday 12/25: Game 33 (at Boston) - second game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 26th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6454%2C4538548): "The Canadiens were without...Henri Richard."

Wednesday 12/27: Game 34 (at New York) - third game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 28th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...7166%2C4849342): "The Canadiens played without...Henri Richard."

Saturday 12/30: Game 35 (vs Chicago) - fourth game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 30th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5229%2C5165040): "Canadiens will still be without...centre Henri Richard."

Monday 1/1: Game 36 (at Chicago) - fifth game Richard misses
No match report, but on December 30th Toe Blake is quoted in the Montreal Gazette (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5229%2C5165040): "We may be without Richard for some time. It's the kind of an injury that require complete healing before he can play." And on January 3rd nothing has changed: "Henri Richard and Bernie Geoffrion are still in Montreal taking treatment for injuries." And Toe Blake is quoted again: "They won't play unless they are 100 per cent." (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6853%2C245441). For another hint, see below ("out for three weeks")
It's obvious that Henri Richard did not play on January 1st.

Wednesday 3/1: Game 37 (at Toronto) - sixth game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 4th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6889%2C406487): "Canadiens...were without Henri Richard."

Richard finally made his comeback in Game 38 (vs New York) on January 6th. Montreal Gazette January 8th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6150%2C957774): "Henri Richard, who returned to action Saturday night after being out for three weeks with a groin injury." Out for three weeks is a slight exaggeration (he was actually out for 15 days), but it wouldn't have been written had Richard played on January 1st, so it's another confirmation he didn't play in that game.

If I am right and he missed 6 games that Winter, he did not play in 54 NHL games but only in 53 that season. It's only one game, but a mistake in the official record is a mistake in the official record.

But maybe I am wrong? Am I overlooking something? Or is there really a phantom game in Henri Richard's 1961-62 NHL record?

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07-12-2012, 09:17 AM
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Entire games used to be 'phantom' played back in the early days. I recall reading about a Rangers game that couldn't be played in the early thirties because of some scheduling issue and the short term backup venue plans fell through so Lester Patrick fudged the paperwork, the players got paid anyway, and the league recorded a game that hadn't been played. I believe it was in Selke's memoirs.

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07-12-2012, 09:18 AM
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Official Game Sheets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Researching Henri Richard's performance in 1961-1962 I discovered what looks like an inaccuracy in the NHL record. And I'm not talking about different shot counting or assist counting in different arenas.

According to the record Henri Richard played in 54 games out of 70 in the 1961-62 NHL season. hockey-reference.com, hockeydb.com and other websites have the same number - no surprise, they base their data on the NHL record.
NHL player profil: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8448320.
NHL season overview: http://www.nhl.com/ice/historicalsta...ion=S&country=

I was surprised to discover Henri Richard seems to have missed 17 games that season. If the NHL record was accurate, he must only have missed 70-54=16 games. Let's look into it:

-Henri Richard missed the last 11 games of the regular season. He got hit by Marcel Pronovost of the Detroit Red Wings on March 3rd 1961 and broke his arm. The injury put Richard on the sideline for the rest of the regular season (games 60-70 of the Canadiens' schedule) and the playoffs. This is an undisputed fact, no controversial issue so far. Still a source from 1962: Montreal Gazette, March 5th, Page 17 and esp.18 (I can't generate an automatic link to either page for whatever reason): http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en
Take a look at the schedule. Game 59 (bolded) is the one in which Richard got injured. Games 60-70 are the ones which he had to sit out because of the injury:

Schedule (courtesy of http://www.hockey-reference.com/team...962_games.html)
59 Sat, Mar 3, 1962 Detroit Red Wings T 2 2 35 11 13 T 2 - Injury
60 Sun, Mar 4, 1962 @ Chicago Black Hawks L 2 5 35 12 13 L 1
61 Thu, Mar 8, 1962 Toronto Maple Leafs T 1 1 35 12 14 T 1
62 Sat, Mar 10, 1962 Boston Bruins W 5 2 36 12 14 W 1
63 Sun, Mar 11, 1962 @ New York Rangers W 2 1 37 12 14 W 2
64 Wed, Mar 14, 1962 @ Toronto Maple Leafs L 2 5 37 13 14 L 1
65 Thu, Mar 15, 1962 Chicago Black Hawks W 6 5 38 13 14 W 1
66 Sat, Mar 17, 1962 New York Rangers W 2 0 39 13 14 W 2
67 Sun, Mar 18, 1962 @ Boston Bruins L 2 6 39 14 14 L 1
68 Thu, Mar 22, 1962 Toronto Maple Leafs W 4 1 40 14 14 W 1
69 Sat, Mar 24, 1962 Chicago Black Hawks W 5 3 41 14 14 W 2
70 Sun, Mar 25, 1962 @ Detroit Red Wings W 5 2 42 14 14 W 3

Now to the controversial issue. According to the official NHL record there are 5 other games Richard missed in the same season. However, I think the evidence shows he actually missed 6 additional games, not 5.

-Richard had a "clash" with Dollard St.Laurent of the Chicago Blackhawks on December 21st and suffered a groin injury. Source: Montreal Gazette 1961, December 22nd (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...7082%2C4162499).
The game he picked up this injury was game 31 in the schedule:

31 Thu, Dec 21, 1961 Chicago Black Hawks L 3 4 16 7 8 L 2 - Injury
32 Sat, Dec 23, 1961 Detroit Red Wings W 6 1 17 7 8 W 1
33 Mon, Dec 25, 1961 @ Boston Bruins W 5 2 18 7 8 W 2
34 Wed, Dec 27, 1961 @ New York Rangers W 3 0 19 7 8 W 3
35 Sat, Dec 30, 1961 Chicago Black Hawks T 4 4 19 7 9 T 1
36 Mon, Jan 1, 1962 @ Chicago Black Hawks L 0 2 19 8 9 L 1
37 Wed, Jan 3, 1962 @ Toronto Maple Leafs L 1 3 19 9 9 L 2
38 Sat, Jan 6, 1962 New York Rangers W 5 1 20 9 9 W 1 - Back in action

Here's the evidence that Richard missed games 32-37 as suggested in the schedule above:

Saturday 12/23: Game 32 (vs Detroit) - first game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 26th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...09%2C4539019): "Center Henri Richard...missed Saturday night's game after being hurt last Thursday against Chicago."

Monday 12/25: Game 33 (at Boston) - second game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 26th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6454%2C4538548): "The Canadiens were without...Henri Richard."

Wednesday 12/27: Game 34 (at New York) - third game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 28th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...7166%2C4849342): "The Canadiens played without...Henri Richard."

Saturday 12/30: Game 35 (vs Chicago) - fourth game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 30th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5229%2C5165040): "Canadiens will still be without...centre Henri Richard."

Monday 1/1: Game 36 (at Chicago) - fifth game Richard misses
No match report, but on December 30th Toe Blake is quoted in the Montreal Gazette (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5229%2C5165040): "We may be without Richard for some time. It's the kind of an injury that require complete healing before he can play." And on January 3rd nothing has changed: "Henri Richard and Bernie Geoffrion are still in Montreal taking treatment for injuries." And Toe Blake is quoted again: "They won't play unless they are 100 per cent." (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6853%2C245441). For another hint, see below ("out for three weeks")
It's obvious that Henri Richard did not play on January 1st.

Wednesday 3/1: Game 37 (at Toronto) - sixth game Richard misses
Montreal Gazette December 4th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6889%2C406487): "Canadiens...were without Henri Richard."

Richard finally made his comeback in Game 38 (vs New York) on January 6th. Montreal Gazette January 8th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6150%2C957774): "Henri Richard, who returned to action Saturday night after being out for three weeks with a groin injury." Out for three weeks is a slight exaggeration (he was actually out for 15 days), but it wouldn't have been written had Richard played on January 1st, so it's another confirmation he didn't play in that game.

If I am right and he missed 6 games that Winter, he did not play in 54 NHL games but only in 53 that season. It's only one game, but a mistake in the official record is a mistake in the official record.

But maybe I am wrong? Am I overlooking something? Or is there really a phantom game in Henri Richard's 1961-62 NHL record?
Stats are generated from the official game sheets. Hypothetical situation - if Richard skated in the warm-up and appears on the game sheet, sits on the bench but does not play he might be described as missing the game but would be included as a skater who was eligible to play.

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07-12-2012, 09:22 AM
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Score

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Entire games used to be 'phantom' played back in the early days. I recall reading about a Rangers game that couldn't be played in the early thirties because of some scheduling issue and the short term backup venue plans fell through so Lester Patrick fudged the paperwork, the players got paid anyway, and the league recorded a game that hadn't been played. I believe it was in Selke's memoirs.
What was the score?

Phantom games are common with rules governing the minimum number of players that must dress ans be listed on the game sheet.
So an injured player dresses, appears on the game sheet but sees no ice time.

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07-12-2012, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Entire games used to be 'phantom' played back in the early days. I recall reading about a Rangers game that couldn't be played in the early thirties because of some scheduling issue and the short term backup venue plans fell through so Lester Patrick fudged the paperwork, the players got paid anyway, and the league recorded a game that hadn't been played. I believe it was in Selke's memoirs.
That's a mad story. But the situation is very different in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Stats are generated from the official game sheets. Hypothetical situation - if Richard skated in the warm-up and appears on the game sheet, sits on the bench but does not play he might be described as missing the game but would be included as a skater who was eligible to play.
Very good point. Yes, that's a possible explanation. I happen to be aware of a case like this in the 1998 IIHF Super Cup, so it's anything but unthinkable.

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07-12-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
That's a mad story. But the situation is very different in this case.



Very good point. Yes, that's a possible explanation. I happen to be aware of a case like this in the 1998 IIHF Super Cup, so it's anything but unthinkable.
A check of the appropriate rules that applied during the 1961-62 season might shed some light on the question. Also this happened at Christmas so getting a call-up in time for the game might have been an issue.

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07-12-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Stats are generated from the official game sheets. Hypothetical situation - if Richard skated in the warm-up and appears on the game sheet, sits on the bench but does not play he might be described as missing the game but would be included as a skater who was eligible to play.
that's what I thought.

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07-12-2012, 10:31 AM
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that's what I thought.
If the stict definition of having to actually play in the game was applied I suspect a number of 1 game call-ups might get dropped from the NHL records.

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07-12-2012, 11:19 AM
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I'm not exactly surprised, since I found an error in the NHL record as late as the mid-1980s, and I imagine that things were harder back in the early 1960s.

From my site:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeygoalies.org/bio/froese.html
The official National Hockey League statistics for 1984-85 credit Bob Froese with two losses. However, research has shown that the November 1, 1984 loss to Winnipeg was incorrectly given to Froese as the fifth goal was allowed by Pelle Lindbergh. From the Gettsyburg Times: "The Jets opened up a three-goal lead at 23 seconds of the third period when Robert Picard took a pass from (Dale) Hawerchuk in front of the goal and went over substitute goalie Pelle Lindbergh."
Since Froese only had one (or two) losses in the entire season, this one was pretty easy to find with a bit of microfilm.

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07-12-2012, 11:56 AM
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Early Stats

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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I'm not exactly surprised, since I found an error in the NHL record as late as the mid-1980s, and I imagine that things were harder back in the early 1960s.

From my site:



Since Froese only had one (or two) losses in the entire season, this one was pretty easy to find with a bit of microfilm.
Alot of early NHL goalie stats were redone when actual minutes played became part of the stat landscape. Playoffs GAA used to be done on a GP basis which did not factor in overtime.

Likewise PIM and GP numbers should be viewed as iffy prior to the 1939-40 season.

Most of the changes were introduced during Ron Andrews tenure. Long, hard process.

BTW Ron Andrews deserves HHOF consideration as a builder.

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07-12-2012, 03:59 PM
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These things interest me as well. I remember watching a Bure highlight video on youtube and one of the goals, according to box scores (also checked preseason schedules) couldn't have been scored (obviously was but wasn't recorded) based on the time of the goal and who was on the powerplay, team they were playing, etc.

Also, I love when box scores will give a player who took a penalty (right player) but put the wrong player he took the penalty on. For example, it might say Lilja slashed Ference when in reality he slashed Seidenberg . Little things I know but it is interesting.

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07-12-2012, 11:22 PM
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There are lots of things wrong with the NHL records.

John Jr. Hanna received a pension payout for playing in 200 games. The record shows him with only 198 games played.

The Rangers platooned Henry and Rayner at least 4 times in 1945-46, but the record shows them as only splitting one game.

I don't recall which 30s Ranger it was but he was dressed for 15 games as a call up but never actually played. You can find older records where he has no GP for that season, but the last time I looked at the "official records" he was credited with 15 GP that season.

The 3 games Sprague Cleghorn played with Ottawa in 20-21, before his departure and feud with the team are not included in his official record.

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07-13-2012, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Stats are generated from the official game sheets. Hypothetical situation - if Richard skated in the warm-up and appears on the game sheet, sits on the bench but does not play he might be described as missing the game but would be included as a skater who was eligible to play.

pretty much this.A player needs to play one second of a game to get credited with ice time to play in the game. One of the most famous benchings was of Gerry Unger when the coach had him sit on the bench for the entire game and that is how his consecutive game streak ended with the Flames. He is listed at playing 79games, but was dressed for all 80

In the course of the streak, Unger was traded four times. Unger was part of a package sent to the Red Wings less than two weeks after the streak began. The Red Wings, in turn, moved Unger to the St. Louis Blues in the 1970-71 season, and it was with the Blues that he broke Andy Hebenton's iron-man record on March 10, 1976 in Toronto. Garry Unger moved on to the Atlanta Flames in 1979. On December 22, 1979, Flames coach Al MacNeil finally benched Unger, ending the streak at 914 consecutive game

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07-13-2012, 05:12 AM
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Ron Andrews

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
pretty much this.A player needs to play one second of a game to get credited with ice time to play in the game. One of the most famous benchings was of Gerry Unger when the coach had him sit on the bench for the entire game and that is how his consecutive game streak ended with the Flames. He is listed at playing 79games, but was dressed for all 80

In the course of the streak, Unger was traded four times. Unger was part of a package sent to the Red Wings less than two weeks after the streak began. The Red Wings, in turn, moved Unger to the St. Louis Blues in the 1970-71 season, and it was with the Blues that he broke Andy Hebenton's iron-man record on March 10, 1976 in Toronto. Garry Unger moved on to the Atlanta Flames in 1979. On December 22, 1979, Flames coach Al MacNeil finally benched Unger, ending the streak at 914 consecutive game
You are referring to the definition as it evolved during the Ron Andrews era. Up thread there are pre Ron Andrews examples.

The main impetus for the trend was the rule mandating NHL teams dress two goalies for each game. Once it became evident how the two goalies were used, the stat keeping had to be adjusted accordingly.

Domino effect to skaters followed.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-15-2012 at 08:07 PM. Reason: wording
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07-13-2012, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
pretty much this.A player needs to play one second of a game to get credited with ice time to play in the game.
Not in 1961-1962 obviously. Henri Richard didn't play a second from December 23rd to January 3rd and still got credited with one game.

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07-15-2012, 07:07 PM
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It might be an interesting project to come up with a list of definitive errors that have mistakenly been recorded as official NHL statistics.

Here's an example: the 1918-19 Montreal Canadiens are listed as having scored 88 goals, which matches the total they scored in all their games, but the players goal totals add up to 89. Going through all the summaries, it appears that Odie Cleghorn somehow had an extra goal added to his total. That same season, Ken Randall seems to have one less goal than he should. The following year, Jack Darragh appears to be one goal short.

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07-15-2012, 07:16 PM
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Most of the changes were introduced during Ron Andrews tenure. Long, hard process.

BTW Ron Andrews deserves HHOF consideration as a builder.
Absolutely he does. There's a fascinating article in the first edition of Total Hockey by Andrews describing the amount of work he had to put into it. Trying to get everything tabulated in time for the newspapers deadlines, without much help, or the aid of computers and spreadsheets that we take for granted today, sounds like an impossible task.

A big part of his contributions was convincing the league that fans wanted to see these stats, and that it would be beneficial for the league if they were released to the public. At the time, stuff like plus/minus records were considered top secret by the clubs, and they were apprehensive about revealing them.

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07-15-2012, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Absolutely he does. There's a fascinating article in the first edition of Total Hockey by Andrews describing the amount of work he had to put into it. Trying to get everything tabulated in time for the newspapers deadlines, without much help, or the aid of computers and spreadsheets that we take for granted today, sounds like an impossible task.

A big part of his contributions was convincing the league that fans wanted to see these stats, and that it would be beneficial for the league if they were released to the public. At the time, stuff like plus/minus records were considered top secret by the clubs, and they were apprehensive about revealing them.
Streamlining and standardizing the game collection of stats. Realizing that the stats had to reflect how the game was played including all the players in the process. This often gets lost today when the numbers posters focus a a very limited number of players.

An interesting sidebar is that Ron Andrews' work extended well beyond the NHL. The guys doing the game numerical recordings by hand were often involved with youth and minor hockey, so the techniques, discipline, reporting etc filtered to all levels.

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07-16-2012, 03:54 PM
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I swear to God Vladimir Tsyplakov got credit for a goal he never scored. It was back in the '90s before Internet sports sites really took off, so there was little way to check, but I swear a goal was added to his tally by the end of the season without one being subtracted from anyone else. ONE DAY I WILL PROVE IT! lol

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08-23-2012, 04:46 AM
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Not in the NHL record, but a mistake nevertheless: According to Hockey Reference and Legends of Hockey, Canadian forward John McCreedy scored 4 goals and 3 assists in 7 games at the 1939-1940 World Championship. (See http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...mccrejo01.html and http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=13610.) Which is impossible because there was no World Championship in 1939-1940 due to WW2. In reality McCreedy's achievements belong to the 1938-1939 tournament.

Oddly enough, his Wikipedia site avoids that mistake only to erroneously claim McCreedy won the World Championship in 1937-1938. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCreedy.

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08-25-2012, 02:43 PM
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Just found one in the shot totals for Greg Millen in 1989-90. In the goalie stats list he faced 1471 shots, and his 3 teams totals add up to 1471, but in his H/R splits he only faced 1465. Going to the game log we get 1465, and all 3 team totals are off by 1-3 shots.

(Trivia question: Who was the last goalie to play for 3 NHL teams in the same season? I know it hasn't happened in the last 3 seasons.)

Of course I found one at nhl.com were the special teams splits for Luongo in 2006-07 are missing one goal, a penalty shot goal while short handed, but seem to include the shot that goal was scored on.

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08-25-2012, 07:29 PM
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(Trivia question: Who was the last goalie to play for 3 NHL teams in the same season? I know it hasn't happened in the last 3 seasons.)
Sean Burke and Kirk McLean both did it during the season they were involved in the same trade between Carolina and Vancouver.

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08-26-2012, 05:08 PM
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I just looked over the 1989-90 goalie stats and most of them have more shots on that page then they do in their H/R splits page. Looks a lot like the ENG are getting added in as shots, and saves, on the main list and the individual career pages.

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08-26-2012, 05:38 PM
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Shots vs Saves

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
I just looked over the 1989-90 goalie stats and most of them have more shots on that page then they do in their H/R splits page. Looks a lot like the ENG are getting added in as shots, and saves, on the main list and the individual career pages.
This was problematic, even pre Ron Andrews.

SOGs vs goalie saves. An ENG is a SOG but it is not attributed to the goalie that was pulled. Not always the case.

The other issues is saves made inside the crease by non-goalies and whether they are a SOG? Not a save for the goalie.

Also the operative definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_on...8ice_hockey%29

is iffy and open to contradictions.

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08-26-2012, 09:11 PM
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I think 90-91 was the first season the NHL stopped counting ENG as shots against on the goalies records.

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