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Free Agency & General Offseason Discussion Thread: Part III - The Brenden Morrow Saga

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Old
07-11-2012, 07:48 PM
  #76
Qward
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Originally Posted by IloveChrisNeil View Post
Tovie > Strome
Morgan Rielly>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tovie>Strome>Sub an>Rundblad>>>>>Karlsson

Everyone happy?

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07-11-2012, 07:55 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Morgan Rielly>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tovie>Strome>Sub an>Rundblad>>>>>Karlsson

Everyone happy?
Why are you underestimating the pure greatness of the Toronto savior, Morgan Rielly so much?

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07-11-2012, 08:07 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Morgan Rielly>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tovie>Strome>Sub an>Rundblad>>>>>Karlsson

Everyone happy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GK View Post
Why are you underestimating the pure greatness of the Toronto savior, Morgan Rielly so much?
At least you spelled his last name right. Spelling it Reilly instead of Rielly is a banishable crime

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07-11-2012, 08:08 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Morgan Rielly>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tovie>Strome>Sub an>Rundblad>>>>>Karlsson

Everyone happy?
You forgot Crosby.

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Old
07-11-2012, 08:14 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Patvolcom65 View Post
You forgot Crosby.
Not enough ">" to emphasize how incredible he is.

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07-11-2012, 11:24 PM
  #81
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Skinner > Spezza tho
Everyone making fun of you.

You making fun of me while I'm not here.


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07-12-2012, 12:27 AM
  #82
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People confusing us with the Leafs or the Flames need to take a better look at either situation. There's a reason we made the playoffs last year, and also have arguably the best prospect pool in the league. We already have a young core of players; we aren't aging or missing some of the most important aspects of a team (#1 C, #1 D, #1 G.) Unlike the Flames and Toronto we already have the core pieces necessary to build around to make a cup contending team. We also have a cupboard of prospects stocked full of guys that can become good players and have a lot of potential.

The reality, however, is that often prospects don't pan out the way that people hope they will. We can afford to trade a few prospects, while still keeping a large amount of high end potential (as well as safe players) without gutting our team and compromising our future. It will allow the team to grow up in a winning environment and provide leadership and character for the younger guys.

Having Morrow over Zibanejad will make the team better now, and it's highly unlikely that it makes the team worse off in the future given what we already have on the team and coming up. The reason Zibanejad is so often mentioned in trade rumours is because, while he's a great prospect, he's also expendable.
While the media reported Zibby was a key piece in a multiplayer offering for Nash, I haven't read nor heard he was a candidate for other possible trades, other than on these boards.

It seems when people heard that Zibby was available in the Nash deal, it sent everyone into 'make-a-deal-for-Zibby mode'.

None of the Sens top prospects are going anywhere for any player that is on the upper side of 30.

What part of rebuild has some of you confused??

Murray will give to get, but the get part will be a player in his 20s that will accelerate the rebuild process. A player like Nash or Ryan, not a player like Brendan Morrow.

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Old
07-12-2012, 04:24 AM
  #83
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There is no reason at all to trade Zibby for a guy like Morrow.

If you want a heart-and-soul, git it all you've got, kind of guy on the team, we have a few of those. Alfie and Neil certainly come to mind.

Morrow brings nothing to the Sens that they don't already have somewhere else.

Maybe if he could play on Spezza's wing, pot 35 goals, and was under 26 years old we would have something to talk about. But Morrow brings none of that, so he's not the guy Murray should be worried about.

Neither is Nash, really. Think about it. With Spezza having a $7 Million Cap hit, Karlsson at $6.5, and Nash a $7.8, This team would be seriously lacking in flexibility when it came to signing other players as they started to improve.

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Old
07-12-2012, 04:46 AM
  #84
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trent our situation is nothing like Toronto's or Calgary's.
That depends on whether we start trading away our best prospects for injury prone players in their mid-30's on the downside of their careers. If we start doing that, we'll sure as hell become the Flames or Leafs in no time. Doing it to prop up a team that was/is relying very heavily on 30+ yo players who aren't going to be significant pieces when this team peaks, while at the same time hurting that future peak... that's brainless Leafs/Flames management 101 right there. All you're doing is sacrificing our potential ability to be great later in a bid to be average now.

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Neither of them have the young talent we have. Spezza, Karlsson, Michalek, Turris, Cowen, Methot... Bishop and bottom 6 we have great young guys like Smith, Greening and co. Guys like Silfverberg, Noesen, Stone, Da Costa and maybe Hoffman look like they could make the jump this year.
Everybody you listed after Spezza and Karlsson are only good depending on their role. We need our best prospects to turn into players that are better than most of the other players you listed, so that those NHL players will be playing roles appropriate to their abilities.

Every team has depth prospects. It's the number and quality of guys at the top that make a prospect pool top of the league.

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Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
Anderson (dunno how 31 makes him aging...as though he's old or something),
He's going to be about much a part of this team's peak as Ron Tugnutt was back in the late 1990's.

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Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
On top of this we have a ton of prospects. The situations are completely different -- namely having a superstar #1 centre and one of the best young defencemen in the league. We already have the pieces to build around AND prospects. Calgary and Toronto were old, devoid of prospects and are moving laterally. Ottawa is pretty much the opposite.
Toronto top scorers 2007-08:
2) Antropov 27yo
3) Kaberle 29yo
5) A. Steen 23yo
7) Ponikarovsky 27yo
9) M. Stajan 23yo... future 1st line center.
11) Wellwood 24yo... there was at least one very vocal Leaf fan trying to claim that he was better than Spezza because of his junior numbers.
12) I. White 23yo

Top prospect = J.Tlusty 19yo

Future D-corps:
Kaberle 29yo leads
I. White 23yo looks like a lock to join the top-4
Colaiacovo 24yo - 1st rounder looks great when healthy
A. Stralman 21yo - "the next Lidstrom"
S. Kronwall 23yo - you haven't lived until you heard about S. Kronwall's shutdown abilities.

30yo Toskala was just acquired to help the team stop bleeding goals and lead the way for the great Justin Pogge 21yo to take takeover.

How did it all go so wrong?

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Old
07-12-2012, 05:32 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Toronto top scorers 2007-08:
2) Antropov 27yo
3) Kaberle 29yo
5) A. Steen 23yo
7) Ponikarovsky 27yo
9) M. Stajan 23yo... future 1st line center.
11) Wellwood 24yo... there was at least one very vocal Leaf fan trying to claim that he was better than Spezza because of his junior numbers.
12) I. White 23yo

Top prospect = J.Tlusty 19yo

Future D-corps:
Kaberle 29yo leads
I. White 23yo looks like a lock to join the top-4
Colaiacovo 24yo - 1st rounder looks great when healthy
A. Stralman 21yo - "the next Lidstrom"
S. Kronwall 23yo - you haven't lived until you heard about S. Kronwall's shutdown abilities.

30yo Toskala was just acquired to help the team stop bleeding goals and lead the way for the great Justin Pogge 21yo to take takeover.

How did it all go so wrong?
All you have to do is look at the players you are mentioning, and realize that our young players are proven performers. We're not hyping up a bunch of people to do something that they can't or won't -- they've already done it. It's just not the same situation at all. There's no superstar #1 centre there. There's no Norris winning #1 defenceman there. There's no game stealing, workhorse of a goalie there. Generally on every team outside of your top 3 - 4 players the others are 'roleplayers.' Hell, pretty much Jersey's entire team is roleplayers and they made the finals this year. The benefit of our great young players like Spezza and Karlsson is that they make everyone around them better.

If you liken our situation to that of the Leafs or Flames that's fine...but it's not anything close to it.

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Old
07-12-2012, 08:47 AM
  #86
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Patience folks. Some are thinking that we are one piece away from contending for the SC. Obviously this is not so. In fact this year we may not even make the playoffs. Then again we may win the division but trading ZB for an older power forward on the downside of his carreer makes no sense. ZB's upside is not known by any of us at this time. What would be the purpose? Just to increase the odds of making the playoffs this year. Short term thinking leading to long term regret.

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Old
07-12-2012, 09:14 AM
  #87
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Anyone else remember when the TSN analysts said the floodgates would open after Parise and Suter signed, still waiting.

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07-12-2012, 09:18 AM
  #88
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Anyone else remember when the TSN analysts said the floodgates would open after Parise and Suter signed, still waiting.
The floodgates are broken.

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Old
07-12-2012, 09:20 AM
  #89
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Anyone else remember when the TSN analysts said the floodgates would open after Parise and Suter signed, still waiting.
What? Hockey analysts do not know what they are talking about?

I am shocked! Shocked!

Ps that was your 1337 post

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07-12-2012, 09:27 AM
  #90
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You're not comparing teams' in the moment, you're doing it with the benefit of hindsight.

Quote:
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All you have to do is look at the players you are mentioning, and realize that our young players are proven performers. We're not hyping up a bunch of people to do something that they can't or won't -- they've already done it. It's just not the same situation at all.

I know you're a bit younger and didn't witness the Leaf-prospect-hyping over the years, but have you ever been to hockeydb?

With the exception of Karlsson, our prospects haven't really done anything.

Steen, Stajan, Wellwood and Ponikarovsky combined for half a dozen 40+ point seasons already and they were the secondary scorers behind Sundin, Antropov and Blake.

Spezza, Michalek and Alfredsson are our primary scorers, plus they're all veterans. How many 40+ point seasons amongst our forwards behind them? ... 1 - Latendresse.

Are our 2nd & 3rd liners any younger than Toronto's at that point in time? ... Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
There's no superstar #1 centre there. There's no Norris winning #1 defenceman there. There's no game stealing, workhorse of a goalie there. Generally on every team outside of your top 3 - 4 players the others are 'roleplayers.' Hell, pretty much Jersey's entire team is roleplayers and they made the finals this year. The benefit of our great young players like Spezza and Karlsson is that they make everyone around them better.

If you liken our situation to that of the Leafs or Flames that's fine...but it's not anything close to it.
Kaberle was an elite offensive D-man at that point in his career at 29yo (near the age of Spezza and near the impact of Karlsson). He could have been a significant piece of a competently rebuilt team.

The only thing that Craig Anderson had on Vesa Toskala when he was acquired was one good season as Colorado's starter. A lot of hockey people thought that Toskala was another gem drafted by Strelow with >= stats at every level as Vezina winner Kipprusoff. Toskala had a lot of value back then and a lot was expected of him.

They didn't have a 21yo franchise player. The careers of some of those players fizzled after that. But a number of those comparable players were just as young at that point and a heck of a lot more proven.

The combination of players peaking earlier than the organization expected and stupid/shortsighted moves to help the team compete quicker put that team where it is.

Ottawa's no where near ready to contend for anything. Shortsighted moves that hurt the future for the present would undo this rebuild and leave us headed towards the constant bubble team purgatory that those teams face every year.

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07-12-2012, 10:22 AM
  #91
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Anyone else remember when the TSN analysts said the floodgates would open after Parise and Suter signed, still waiting.
Floodgates will open after Doan/Semin signing, I would think. Most teams aren't interested in trading assets when they still have the opportunity to get a slight downgrade on Nash/Ryan for just money.

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07-12-2012, 10:27 AM
  #92
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11) Wellwood 24yo... there was at least one very vocal Leaf fan trying to claim that he was better than Spezza because of his junior numbers.
Heh, that was Mess. Good times. He's a Global Mod now.

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07-12-2012, 10:28 AM
  #93
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Heh, that was Mess. Good times. He's a Global Mod now.
Really? ... Ouch. I tend to blame so many of those things on Zeke.

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07-12-2012, 10:29 AM
  #94
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Really? ... Ouch. I tend to blame so many of those things on Zeke.
I believe the meme at the time was to blame Rand, actually

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07-12-2012, 10:35 AM
  #95
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Trading Mika for Morrow is just piss-poor asset management.

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07-12-2012, 10:53 AM
  #96
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Landing Morrow would be great...provided someone has a time machine to take us back to 2005. It's now 2012, and dude is a 33 year old checker. He's a deluxe model checker, to be sure, but he's a checker. He's the kind of guy you pick up at the deadline if you are making a run, or who you sign in free agency if he is available at a price and term that makes sense. But to trade a 19 year old first round pick for him? Yikes....

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07-12-2012, 11:40 AM
  #97
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If I am trading Zibanejad, I am aiming higher than Morrow. Our most pressing need, assuming our top prospects meet but do not surpass expectations, is still a top line forward. Morrow isn't that.
I feel that we over value our prospects on this board. If you are trading Zib and expecting Morrow or better there will most likely have to be other players included in the trade.

Zib has been labeled a "soft" player...that aint helping his trade value.

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07-12-2012, 11:53 AM
  #98
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I feel we overvalue 33 year old, injury prone, second liners with one year left on their deals before unrestricted free agency.

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07-12-2012, 11:54 AM
  #99
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Trent, I respectfully disagree. You are incredibly negative in your views. I understand playing devils advocate but there are undeniable differences in the scenarios.

Toronto did not have Spezza, and Kaberle may have been good, but he's not Karlsson. The Toronto Maple Leafs did not have two D with nearly the amount of potential of Erik Karlsson or Jared Cowen.

Anderson and Toskala are not comparable. Anderson has come here an already proven he can handle the spotlight. A year ago you could have made this argument, but not right now.

We held on to our draft picks and had much superior scouting, they rushed prospects like Schenn, we're letting a great deal of young talent battle out and develop at their own pace. They did not have prospects that matched Silfverberg, Stone, Zibanejad, Lehner (don't say Pogge was as touted. Him and Glass had a lot of hype but it was pretty clear they both had holes in their games, his dad was also not a goaltending coach) etc. because they dealt away many top 60 picks and do not have great scouting. Our young talent has played a handful of games and looked good, and played in other leagues and looked great.

I don't understand how the situations compare. Now all of these guys are not going to work out, I don't think that. And we were going to see the growing pains of a rebuild. But there is a good reason we are well ahead of the likes of Toronto and Calgary in a rebuild in a significantly shorter time frame.

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07-12-2012, 11:55 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamRenzo View Post
I feel that we over value our prospects on this board. If you are trading Zib and expecting Morrow or better there will most likely have to be other players included in the trade.

Zib has been labeled a "soft" player...that aint helping his trade value.
Who labeled him soft?

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