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Old
07-12-2012, 10:41 AM
  #101
bsl
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
So wait... Timmins isn't a top-10 head scout because he passed on Giroux. Yet, he was drafted 22nd overall, meaning 21 teams passed over him. Does that mean that all 21 scouts that passed him are not in the top-10 head scouts? Then, you can't say the following scouts would all have drafted Giroux, we will never know. So they can't top-10 head scouts either!

Mhh... That's confusing. So I guess the best head scout is whoever made the pick back in 2006 in Philadelphia, followed by 9 empty spots, followed by the rest.

As for hidden stars... What about Halak? Streit? Subban if given more time? What if Latendresse can stay injury free next season and keeps up the pace he had in Minny?

Edit: Subban is not a hidden stars? You do realize that there aren't 10 1st pairing dmen picked in the 2nd round every year right? Pacioretty is looking like a first liner picked in the late 1st round of a meh draft. Not so bad. If you look at the next 20 picks, only 1 has become a good NHLer: David Perron. Not so bad! I would say that if out of 20 players, you picked one of the two that has potential to be a game changer, you've picked a hidden stars.
My bad on the Giroux draft position. You guys are dependable. Should have checked.

And you have good arguments. I knew I'd get killed but decided to be difficult tonight. True, many more than 12 scouts missed him, but I stand by what I've been saying: If TT is better than most of the others, he should not have missed him.

Anyway, it's late here and if I offended anyone I apologize. Later guys.

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07-12-2012, 10:45 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
The Datsyuk example is getting old. The guy was drafted in 1998. Timmins at the time wasn't even a head scout at the time:

"From 1999 to 2002, he was the teamís Director of Hockey Operations. He was responsible for the Scouting Department, the minor league affiliate, budgeting, and the daily operation of the Hockey Department."

I guess what you are really saying is "Why hasn't Timmins drafted a Datsyuk yet?"

My challenge to you is this: find me some players that are on par with Datsyuk drafted during Timmins' tenure as a Habs' head scout in rounds 6 and past.
I was gonna go to bed, but damn good point. I buy that. That's a lot better than just posting saying I'm embarrassing myself...

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07-12-2012, 10:50 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
What is a hidden star anyway? We find visible stars? The ones that drop to 2nd rounders, 9th rounders and so on. It doesn't count though, because although Giroux was a 1st rounder, he was a hidden star, but PK, Pacioretty, Mcdonagh, Price, Halak and others, who are 1st line caliber players in the NHL, well everyone knew I guess, they were visible stars.
Another good point. I'm getting killed by you guys. Still, I just hate the Giroux miss even more than the you know who trade, which may not have happened with Giroux picked.

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07-12-2012, 11:03 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Another good point. I'm getting killed by you guys. Still, I just hate the Giroux miss even more than the you know who trade, which may not have happened with Giroux picked.
I'm surprised you even admitted defeat. On these boards if you invest 2 or more posts to an opinion, you must defend it to the death

Look, the giroux miss sucked, but i'm sure many teams would've liked halak, price, mcdonagh, pacioretty, subban, streit, sergei kostitsyn, etc... We can't assume Timmins is perfect, he really isn't, but he's doing fairly well. We'll see how the year plays out but it should be interesting, should habs be good=win, should habs suck and they sell some vets at deadline then habs may have a plethora of picks in a deep 2013 draft. As is, we have our 1st and 3 2nd rounders. Imagine if added more top 60/90 picks? I think we'll REALLY see what Timmmins is capable of.

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07-12-2012, 11:21 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
My bad on the Giroux draft position. You guys are dependable. Should have checked.

And you have good arguments. I knew I'd get killed but decided to be difficult tonight. True, many more than 12 scouts missed him, but I stand by what I've been saying: If TT is better than most of the others, he should not have missed him.

Anyway, it's late here and if I offended anyone I apologize. Later guys.
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
I was gonna go to bed, but damn good point. I buy that. That's a lot better than just posting saying I'm embarrassing myself...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Another good point. I'm getting killed by you guys. Still, I just hate the Giroux miss even more than the you know who trade, which may not have happened with Giroux picked.
About the apology: I don't see what's wrong with having convictions and hanging onto your point of view, as long as your rebuttals aren't personal attacks.

Every draft, you'll find some guys drafted very late in the draft having decent careers. But a guy like Datsyuk falling so low in the draft doesn't happen every year. Out of the last 10 years, the Habs under Timmins have certainly done very well for themselves in the latter rounds. The one guy that pops to mind is Jamie Benn, who was drafted in the 5th round in 2007 and who has "star" potential (or could be considered as one already). But it would be hard to argue against the job Timmins did in the 2007 draft.

Kudos to you for admitting that you may have jumped to conclusions and for not taking the easy way out. I can definitely appreciate someone who doesn't try to take the tone up a notch when he can't find a proper counter-argument.

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07-12-2012, 11:23 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Timmins has picked more middling NHLers than anyone else thus far, great! But he hasn't drafted a true bona fida super star. This again, is not inflammatory, it's his body of work. He's great at picking NHLers but hasn't hit a homerun yet. This was his year to shine and he wanted and got Galy. Let's hope for the sake of the habs he hit one out of the park but if he didn't then he should be questioned.
What you fail to realize is that MOST superstars are drafted in the top 7-8 picks of each draft. It's the rare one in each draft that is discovered outside of those picks (i.E. Giroux). How many of those picks has Timmins had to work with?

Yet he picked McDo, Patches, Price, Subban, Halak. Now if you look at those picks you'll get a clue to why our team has sucked so badly. Our GMs instead of building on Timmins' picks, they took one of them, McDonagh, and gave him as present to Sather in return they got the Latino albatross. If you want to know why the Habs suck go look at what our genius GMs have done for the last 10 years.

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07-12-2012, 11:30 AM
  #107
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Imagine if the last management hadn't sabotaged the work done by Timmins and his staff in the last few years. It's more than the Gomez trade... It's also trading away numerous 2nd rounders for short term help. It's trading some of those drafted players away for next to nothing because of questionable attitude or lack of commitment, when those issues can more than likely be linked to a simple lack of maturity.

Gainey and Gauthier did so many errors while driving this thing, it's not even funny. I hope Bergevin will trust his scouting staff enough to build this thing through the draft and only trade away young assets when they become expandable.

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07-12-2012, 11:35 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
People have also a lot of problems that "stars" and "on their way to be stars" aren't the same thing. In 5 years, chances are we will readdress on we see things. But as of now, since 2003, you take a team like Philly who did draft Giroux, Carter, and Richards and you can say that while they ALSO have their own problems, like their inability to draft goalies, and some busts along the way as well, they did were able to draft stars. The thing is, when a team suck at drafting, you don't expect a lot. But a guy as good as Timmins, I guess the expectations are way high.

P
You really wanna bring up Philly? Okay let's compare their picks with Timmins from 2003 to 2007

Flyers
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Claude Giroux
Van Riensdyk
Steve Downie (thanks to watsatheo)

Habs
Price
Halak
McDon
Patches
Subban
Streit
Grabs
(Maybe) Emelin


That's only top end talent. Which pool would you take? Then when you throw in the middling talent. Timmins completely destroys the Flyers. They really have nothing after those 5 players.


Last edited by onice: 07-12-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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07-12-2012, 11:42 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
You really wanna bring up Philly? Okay let's compare their picks with Timmins from 2003 to 2007

Flyers
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Claude Giroux
Van Riensdyk

Habs
Price
Halak
McDon
Patches
Subban
Streit
Grabs
(Maybe) Emelin


That's only top end talent. Which pool would you take? Then when you throw in the middling talent. Timmins completely destroys the Flyers. They really have nothing after those 4 players.
You forgot Steve Downie.

To answer your question, I'd say it depends on team need. If you have no D or G, obviously Habs. But it's no contest if you already have even an average D and G.

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07-12-2012, 11:42 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Imagine if the last management hadn't sabotaged the work done by Timmins and his staff in the last few years. It's more than the Gomez trade... It's also trading away numerous 2nd rounders for short term help. It's trading some of those drafted players away for next to nothing because of questionable attitude or lack of commitment, when those issues can more than likely be linked to a simple lack of maturity.

Gainey and Gauthier did so many errors while driving this thing, it's not even funny. I hope Bergevin will trust his scouting staff enough to build this thing through the draft and only trade away young assets when they become expandable.

I couldn't agree with you more!!!!!! That's exactly how I see the Habs the last 10 years.

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07-12-2012, 11:43 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
About the apology: I don't see what's wrong with having convictions and hanging onto your point of view, as long as your rebuttals aren't personal attacks.

Every draft, you'll find some guys drafted very late in the draft having decent careers. But a guy like Datsyuk falling so low in the draft doesn't happen every year. Out of the last 10 years, the Habs under Timmins have certainly done very well for themselves in the latter rounds. The one guy that pops to mind is Jamie Benn, who was drafted in the 5th round in 2007 and who has "star" potential (or could be considered as one already). But it would be hard to argue against the job Timmins did in the 2007 draft.

Kudos to you for admitting that you may have jumped to conclusions and for not taking the easy way out. I can definitely appreciate someone who doesn't try to take the tone up a notch when he can't find a proper counter-argument.
Agreed. I wish people would do this more.

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07-12-2012, 11:46 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
You forgot Steve Downie.

To answer your question, I'd say it depends on team need. If you have no D or G, obviously Habs. But it's no contest if you already have even an average D and G.

You build championships from the net out. Well that's everyone except for Gainey & Gauthier. they build on quicksand.

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07-12-2012, 11:54 AM
  #113
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
You really wanna bring up Philly? Okay let's compare their picks with Timmins from 2003 to 2007

Flyers
Jeff Carter 11th overall 2003
Mike Richards 24th overall 2003
Claude Giroux 22nd overall 2006
Van Riensdyk 2nd overall 2007
Steve Downie (thanks to watsatheo) 29th overall 2005

Habs
Price 5th overall 2005
Halak 271st overall 2003
McDon 12th overall 2007
Patches 22nd overall 2007
Subban 43rd overall 2007
Streit 262nd overall 2004
Grabs 150th overall 2004
A.Kostitsyn 10th overall 2003
S.Kostitsyn 200th overall 2005
Emelin 84th overall 2004

That's only top end talent. Which pool would you take? Then when you throw in the middling talent. Timmins completely destroys the Flyers. They really have nothing after those 4 players.
This doesn't even include Latendresse, D'agostini, O'byrne, Lapierre, Chipchura, White, and Weber who are all in the NHL.

For Philly: Nodl, Fraser are the only NHL players excluded from the above list.

So we're good all rounds, they find guys in first rounders, two of which from 2003 draft.


I choose MTL easily.

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07-12-2012, 11:54 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Imagine if the last management hadn't sabotaged the work done by Timmins and his staff in the last few years. It's more than the Gomez trade... It's also trading away numerous 2nd rounders for short term help. It's trading some of those drafted players away for next to nothing because of questionable attitude or lack of commitment, when those issues can more than likely be linked to a simple lack of maturity.

Gainey and Gauthier did so many errors while driving this thing, it's not even funny. I hope Bergevin will trust his scouting staff enough to build this thing through the draft and only trade away young assets when they become expandable.
Definitely, the not having 2nd rounder for 3 years, and bleeding talent the way we did really hurt this franchise.

I can't believe the 2007 draft we had, only to have 1/3rd of it pissed away. Whittling away a 1st rounder into nothing in 2008 when it could've been Carlson.

All that did was delay what we are waiting for a few years.

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07-12-2012, 12:11 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
This doesn't even include Latendresse, D'agostini, O'byrne, Lapierre, Chipchura, White, and Weber who are all in the NHL.

For Philly: Nodl, Fraser are the only NHL players excluded from the above list.

So we're good all rounds, they find guys in first rounders, two of which from 2003 draft.


I choose MTL easily.

Philly's 1st round drafting is ridiculously good. I don't understand why they don't have that many late round steals. It's almost as if they spend every year focusing their scouting time on only high ranked players.

Here's their 1st round picks in the last 15 years:

2012 - Scott Laughton - 20th (I wouldn't be surprised if he breaks out next season)
2011 - Sean Couturier - 8th
2008 - Luca Sbisa - 18th
2007 - James Van Riemsdyk - 2nd
2006 - Claude Giroux - 22nd
2005 - Steve Downie - 29th
2003 - Jeff Carter - 11th
2003 - Mike Richards - 24th
2002 - Joni Pitkanen - 4th
2001 - Jeff Woywitka - 27th (One of the rare years they miss in the 1st round...they end up with Patrick Sharp 95th overall and Dennis Seidenberg 172nd overall )
2000 - Justin Williams - 28th
1999 - Maxime Ouellet - 22nd (Another rare miss...happens to be one of the worst draft years in recent history)
1998 - Simon Gagne - 22nd

12/15 have either already been 1st line/1st pairing or still poised to be in the future. Laughton is too soon to tell but I don't think anyone will be surprised if history repeats.

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07-12-2012, 12:16 PM
  #116
Gabe84
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Philly's 1st round drafting is ridiculously good. I don't understand why they don't have that many late round steals. It's almost as if they spend every year focusing their scouting time on only high ranked players.

Here's their 1st round picks in the last 15 years:

2012 - Scott Laughton - 20th (I wouldn't be surprised if he breaks out next season)
2011 - Sean Couturier - 8th
2008 - Luca Sbisa - 18th
2007 - James Van Riemsdyk - 2nd
2006 - Claude Giroux - 22nd
2005 - Steve Downie - 29th
2003 - Jeff Carter - 11th
2003 - Mike Richards - 24th
2002 - Joni Pitkanen - 4th
2001 - Jeff Woywitka - 27th (One of the rare years they miss in the 1st round...they end up with Patrick Sharp 95th overall and Dennis Seidenberg 172nd overall )
2000 - Justin Williams - 28th
1999 - Maxime Ouellet - 22nd (Another rare miss...happens to be one of the worst draft years in recent history)
1998 - Simon Gagne - 22nd

12/15 have either already been 1st line/1st pairing or still poised to be in the future. Laughton is too soon to tell but I don't think anyone will be surprised if history repeats.
Very solid list. The fact that we are comparing the Canadiens with Philadelphia is a good thing though. I'd be more worried if we were trying to argue whether we are doing better than Calgary.

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07-12-2012, 12:25 PM
  #117
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Detroit is overrated at drafting. They hit some grandslams with their late picks, but did you see the busts they drafted before them? It's a fluke.

Pavel Datsyuk taken in the 6th round of his draft...the amount of points by the 7 guys taken before him...60 all by their first round pick jiri fischer.

As for zetterberg who was taken in the 7th round, they took jari tolsa, andrei maximenko and kent mcdonell before him. 0 points in their career.

OVERRATED!

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07-12-2012, 02:44 PM
  #118
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Good advice. It's late where I am. I will be going to bed soon in fact. I just usually take anti TT positions, even though I may well be wrong. At least I riled things up for a while...
You really need to start talking to girls......

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07-12-2012, 02:49 PM
  #119
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Detroit is overrated at drafting. They hit some grandslams with their late picks, but did you see the busts they drafted before them? It's a fluke.

Pavel Datsyuk taken in the 6th round of his draft...the amount of points by the 7 guys taken before him...60 all by their first round pick jiri fischer.

As for zetterberg who was taken in the 7th round, they took jari tolsa, andrei maximenko and kent mcdonell before him. 0 points in their career.

OVERRATED!
This is basically what I am saying. Datsyuk and Zetterberg WERE FLUKES......end of story!

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07-12-2012, 02:55 PM
  #120
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Philly are the best with 1st round pick,
Detroit are the best at developing young talent.

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07-12-2012, 03:05 PM
  #121
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Philly are the best with 1st round pick,
Detroit are the best at developing young talent.
Based on??

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07-12-2012, 03:11 PM
  #122
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[QUOTE=Jeffrey;52473071]Philly are the best with 1st round pick,
Detroit are the best at developing young talent.[/QUOTE]

No they are not!

Is this why they have barely deveoped any players over the last decade.

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07-12-2012, 03:41 PM
  #123
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I also like how the Wings picked Thomas McCollum 1 pick before Markstrom and 3 picks before Jake Allen. Apples to apples here people as they had their choice between these three goalies.

Or....there is the 2009 draft where they took Landon Ferraro and with the next pick Colorado took Ryan O'Reilly.

I am aware that every scout makes mistakes but this fallacy about the Detroit staff having some sort of sixth sense is both laughable and easily disproven. They are in fact among the worst scouting departments in the NHL.

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07-12-2012, 04:09 PM
  #124
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I'm sick and tired of rehashing what happened in the past. Let's see what happens with the seemingly promising 2012 picks, but that'll take time. The Habs have little to show for the 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2009 drafts.

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07-12-2012, 04:15 PM
  #125
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I'm sick and tired of rehashing what happened in the past. Let's see what happens with the seemingly promising 2012 picks, but that'll take time. The Habs have little to show for the 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2009 drafts.
2004:

Streit
Grabovski
Emelin

To a lesser degree guys who played in NHL last year:

Wyman
Chipchura

Not spectacular but not so bad.

2006 sucked

2008 well, we had 5 picks with no 1st, and top 2 of which were in college. Kristo and Qualier will be in AHL soon.

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