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Chicago discussing Hjalmarsson package with Habs for Plekanec

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Old
07-12-2012, 11:39 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by zytz View Post
Yeah who cares about goals?
So, I take it you think Hartnell is better than Giroux right?

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07-12-2012, 11:44 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
As I've said, I'm a big fan of Plekanec, so I'm not trying to downplay him.

Sharp is simply a better offensive player than Pleks, and a helluva goal scorer. He's almost as elite defensively and a constant PK threat, being one of the League's best SH goal producer year in year out.

I'm not going to argue intangibles because I believe Plekanec is an under-appreciated leader. Both are workhorses who can shutdown other team's top lines and change the course of a game with an offensive breakout.

All in all, Sharp has a bit more value because he has an edge offensively while Pleks has one defensively. They aren't far apart in both departments, but I don't think I have to convince anyone that offensive skills/production tend to be valued at least slightly more on the trade market.
The bolded part is just quite simply not true. He scores a couple per year sometimes, he has 5 in the last 4 years. At no point has he been in the top 10 for SH goals scored.

As for him just being better offensively...for their careers, per 82 games played Sharp averages 55.6 points while Plekanec averages 54 points.

So any difference is incredibly minor, and considering the quality of offence on the teams theyv'e played on in their careers I think its' pretty laughable to claim that other than in goal scoring Sharp is a better offensive player. And any goal scoring advantage Sharp has, Plekanec clearly must conversely have in playmaking abilities.

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07-12-2012, 11:48 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by subbang76 View Post
Good line-up would be:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Sharp - Eller - Gionta (Sharp and Gionta will aide in Eller's development)
Bourque - Leblanc - Prust
Moen - White - Armstrong/Nokelainen

Subban - Gorges
Emelin - Markov
Hjalmarrson - Kaberle/Bouillon/Diaz

Price
Budaj

That in my perspective is a Stanley Cup contending team
I agree, but that is only if Eller would have a 20-30-50 season, which is very realistic as that is not close to his ceiling. I would also swap Armstrong and Prust as Army could score 20.

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07-12-2012, 11:57 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by subbang76 View Post
Good line-up would be:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Sharp - Eller - Gionta (Sharp and Gionta will aide in Eller's development)
Bourque - Leblanc - Prust
Moen - White - Armstrong/Nokelainen

Subban - Gorges
Emelin - Markov
Hjalmarrson - Kaberle/Bouillon/Diaz

Price
Budaj

That in my perspective is a Stanley Cup contending team
I'm not even certain that's a playoff team with that center depth. Someone goes down, mckinnon here we come.

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Old
07-12-2012, 12:10 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I'm not even certain that's a playoff team with that center depth. Someone goes down, mckinnon here we come.
Especially since Leblanc has played wing for the most part so far in his professional career...

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07-12-2012, 12:26 PM
  #181
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If Montreal does that deal, Sharp will play center until Galchenyuk's ready to take over. Sharp would then switch to wing. It's an ideal scenario. The problem still remains what we do with our left wing on the 2nd line position / 3rd line center position. Though I don't think we'll rush Eller into a 2nd line role in October.

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07-12-2012, 12:41 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
if we get Plekanec, I'd give up Bolland for him....
I bet you would. Unfortunately for you, the Habs wouldn't.

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07-12-2012, 12:49 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
The bolded part is just quite simply not true. He scores a couple per year sometimes, he has 5 in the last 4 years. At no point has he been in the top 10 for SH goals scored.

As for him just being better offensively...for their careers, per 82 games played Sharp averages 55.6 points while Plekanec averages 54 points.

So any difference is incredibly minor, and considering the quality of offence on the teams theyv'e played on in their careers I think its' pretty laughable to claim that other than in goal scoring Sharp is a better offensive player. And any goal scoring advantage Sharp has, Plekanec clearly must conversely have in playmaking abilities.
He did get 7 the year before though, but I agree my memory might have been stuck on that stellar year. I hadn't looked it up.

Thing is, you're operating on a double standard: you're dismissing my SH goals argument based on the fact it was particularly impressive 4-5 years ago, yet you argue on career pts/game ratio while not taking into account Sharp's production over the past 5 seasons has been more impressive and consistent than Plekanec's.

And the goal/game ratio isn't even close. You keep downplaying the argument that at equal point production, goal scoring > passing; I just don't see it that way. And again, as a Habs fan, I'm more emotionally tied to Plekanec (it's actually not even close) so you have to take this into account.

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07-12-2012, 01:16 PM
  #184
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I bet you would. Unfortunately for you, the Habs wouldn't.
thought this was agreed on when the Hawks allowed Bergevin to leave the organisation

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07-12-2012, 01:36 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
thought this was agreed on when the Hawks allowed Bergevin to leave the organisation
Yes, I think you're right. But it also involved swapping Kaberle with the guy on my avatar if I recall correctly...

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07-12-2012, 01:49 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
thought this was agreed on when the Hawks allowed Bergevin to leave the organisation
C'mon man, you guys got us back by taking Gauthier.

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07-12-2012, 03:01 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
He did get 7 the year before though, but I agree my memory might have been stuck on that stellar year. I hadn't looked it up.

Thing is, you're operating on a double standard: you're dismissing my SH goals argument based on the fact it was particularly impressive 4-5 years ago, yet you argue on career pts/game ratio while not taking into account Sharp's production over the past 5 seasons has been more impressive and consistent than Plekanec's.

And the goal/game ratio isn't even close. You keep downplaying the argument that at equal point production, goal scoring > passing; I just don't see it that way. And again, as a Habs fan, I'm more emotionally tied to Plekanec (it's actually not even close) so you have to take this into account.
I'm not operating on any double standard.

Sharp hasn't played more than like 1:15 or so (not going to look up the numbers again) on the PK per game in like 4 years.

Why would we compare Sharp's production to Plekanec's over the last few years? Do you realize how little that makes sense? Sharp was at no point the Hawks best, or even 2nd best, and really it's arguable whether he's more valuable than Hossa.

So he is AT BEST their 3rd most valuable forward, and likely 4th most.

I realize the goals per game ratio isn't close, which is why I have asked, over and over and over again other than goal scoring what Sharp has on Plekanec.

Look at the rest of the teams point totals in recent years.

For example, in 2010/2011 Plekanec was outscored by Sharp by 14 points. 57 to 71.

But Plekanec led his team in scoring, 10 ahead of the next guy.

Sharp was 3rd

The Habs had 1 50 point guy, the Hawks had 4.

The Habs did not have a single d-man with 40 points (Subban had 38) while the Hawks had 2.

In what world does it make sense to compare offensive point totals for 2 guys when the quality of offence on their respective teams in the last several years has been so wildly different.

Last year Sharp was 2nd on his team, while Plex was 4th...but if you compare their linemates it would be night and day.

So again, what other than better goal scoring does Sharp bring to the table that makes him better than Plekanec in any way?

He doesn't play as valuable of a position, he's not younger, he is clearly not a better PK'er, he doesn't block more shots.

Is there all sorts of advanced stats out there that show why Sharp is a much better player that I'm not aware of? And if those stats are out there, do they take into consideration the players quality of linemates?

I'm still waiting for something, ANYTHING other than an arrogant comment about how goal scoring is so much more important, as to why Sharp is better than Plekanec.

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07-12-2012, 03:11 PM
  #188
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Hjalmarsson is not good enough to be the focal point of any trade for a significant player.

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07-12-2012, 03:18 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
I'm not operating on any double standard.

Sharp hasn't played more than like 1:15 or so (not going to look up the numbers again) on the PK per game in like 4 years.

Why would we compare Sharp's production to Plekanec's over the last few years? Do you realize how little that makes sense? Sharp was at no point the Hawks best, or even 2nd best, and really it's arguable whether he's more valuable than Hossa.

So he is AT BEST their 3rd most valuable forward, and likely 4th most.


I realize the goals per game ratio isn't close, which is why I have asked, over and over and over again other than goal scoring what Sharp has on Plekanec.

Look at the rest of the teams point totals in recent years.

For example, in 2010/2011 Plekanec was outscored by Sharp by 14 points. 57 to 71.

But Plekanec led his team in scoring, 10 ahead of the next guy.

Sharp was 3rd

The Habs had 1 50 point guy, the Hawks had 4.

The Habs did not have a single d-man with 40 points (Subban had 38) while the Hawks had 2.

In what world does it make sense to compare offensive point totals for 2 guys when the quality of offence on their respective teams in the last several years has been so wildly different.

Last year Sharp was 2nd on his team, while Plex was 4th...but if you compare their linemates it would be night and day.

So again, what other than better goal scoring does Sharp bring to the table that makes him better than Plekanec in any way?

He doesn't play as valuable of a position, he's not younger, he is clearly not a better PK'er, he doesn't block more shots.

Is there all sorts of advanced stats out there that show why Sharp is a much better player that I'm not aware of? And if those stats are out there, do they take into consideration the players quality of linemates?

I'm still waiting for something, ANYTHING other than an arrogant comment about how goal scoring is so much more important, as to why Sharp is better than Plekanec.
1) Hossa
2) Toews (injury)
3) Sharp
4) Kane

in terms of value last season. Going forward it's

1) Toews
2) Kane
3) Sharp
4) Hossa

because of age and development. However, what does comparing Sharp against a franchise center and two of the elite wings in all of the NHL accomplish? Argue their respective values on the merits, not on some half-baked comparison to other players.

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07-12-2012, 03:21 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
I'm not operating on any double standard.

Sharp hasn't played more than like 1:15 or so (not going to look up the numbers again) on the PK per game in like 4 years.

Why would we compare Sharp's production to Plekanec's over the last few years? Do you realize how little that makes sense? Sharp was at no point the Hawks best, or even 2nd best, and really it's arguable whether he's more valuable than Hossa.

So he is AT BEST their 3rd most valuable forward, and likely 4th most.

I realize the goals per game ratio isn't close, which is why I have asked, over and over and over again other than goal scoring what Sharp has on Plekanec.

Look at the rest of the teams point totals in recent years.

For example, in 2010/2011 Plekanec was outscored by Sharp by 14 points. 57 to 71.

But Plekanec led his team in scoring, 10 ahead of the next guy.

Sharp was 3rd

The Habs had 1 50 point guy, the Hawks had 4.

The Habs did not have a single d-man with 40 points (Subban had 38) while the Hawks had 2.

In what world does it make sense to compare offensive point totals for 2 guys when the quality of offence on their respective teams in the last several years has been so wildly different.

Last year Sharp was 2nd on his team, while Plex was 4th...but if you compare their linemates it would be night and day.

So again, what other than better goal scoring does Sharp bring to the table that makes him better than Plekanec in any way?

He doesn't play as valuable of a position, he's not younger, he is clearly not a better PK'er, he doesn't block more shots.

Is there all sorts of advanced stats out there that show why Sharp is a much better player that I'm not aware of? And if those stats are out there, do they take into consideration the players quality of linemates?

I'm still waiting for something, ANYTHING other than an arrogant comment about how goal scoring is so much more important, as to why Sharp is better than Plekanec.
I have a hard time understanding how you can use that word, as you are the only one who seems utterly pissed about the current debate. Let's simmer this down a bit.

The fact Habs have no once close to Toews, Kane and Hossa on their team should not be a reason to consider Plekanec higher than Sharp. Quite on the contrary, I could easily argue Pleks would be much less relied upon if he were to join the Hawks, getting less PK and PP time for instance. I've always thought Cunneyworth but mostly Martin have been utilizing Plekanec way too much on the PK in the past years. In Chicago, with their other Selke-worthy candidates, he would be much more sheltered. I don't think it's debatable.

I consider Plekanec a better defensive forward than Sharp, in case you haven't noticed. I just believe not many GM's in this League other than Bergevin would accept and 1-for-1 swap. And, as sad as it may sound to you, if Sharp were on the Habs he probably would be their best offensive player, maybe behind Pacioretty, but probably higher (not saying I would trade Patches for him, just to be clear).

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07-12-2012, 03:21 PM
  #191
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Plekanec is the anchor of the Habs top 6 at centre, especially in tough matchups and on the PK... He just does not get moved until there is more seasoning between Desharnais/Eller/Leblanc/Galchenyuk and 2 of them are deemed to be solid enough to takeover Plekanec's defensive responsibilities (along with production).

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07-12-2012, 03:25 PM
  #192
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I'm going to rage HARD if Plekanec gets traded.

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07-12-2012, 03:29 PM
  #193
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I'm going to rage HARD if Plekanec gets traded.
Depends what return is.

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07-12-2012, 03:35 PM
  #194
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Depends what return is.
I'm serious, even if we somehow get Kane in that deal, I'd still be mad. Pleky's my favorite Hab.

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07-12-2012, 03:37 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
1) Hossa
2) Toews (injury)
3) Sharp
4) Kane

in terms of value last season. Going forward it's

1) Toews
2) Kane
3) Sharp
4) Hossa

because of age and development. However, what does comparing Sharp against a franchise center and two of the elite wings in all of the NHL accomplish? Argue their respective values on the merits, not on some half-baked comparison to other players.
It accomplishes allowing the realization that comparing point totals between Sharp and Plekanec is asinine, because Sharp plays with a franchise center and two of the elite wings in all of the NHL.

Really confusing as to how this is a hard concept for people to grasp.

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07-12-2012, 03:40 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
I have a hard time understanding how you can use that word, as you are the only one who seems utterly pissed about the current debate. Let's simmer this down a bit.

The fact Habs have no once close to Toews, Kane and Hossa on their team should not be a reason to consider Plekanec higher than Sharp. Quite on the contrary, I could easily argue Pleks would be much less relied upon if he were to join the Hawks, getting less PK and PP time for instance. I've always thought Cunneyworth but mostly Martin have been utilizing Plekanec way too much on the PK in the past years. In Chicago, with their other Selke-worthy candidates, he would be much more sheltered. I don't think it's debatable.

I consider Plekanec a better defensive forward than Sharp, in case you haven't noticed. I just believe not many GM's in this League other than Bergevin would accept and 1-for-1 swap. And, as sad as it may sound to you, if Sharp were on the Habs he probably would be their best offensive player, maybe behind Pacioretty, but probably higher (not saying I would trade Patches for him, just to be clear).
Lol, dude the stuff you're saying makes no sense.

I never said, implied, or thought the fact that Sharp plays on a team with those guys somehow makes Plekanec better. I said it is pointless to compare their point totals because one guy plays on one of the better offensive teams in the league while the other plays on one of the lower end offensive teams in the league.

Oh, and you might think Bergevin would trade Plekanec for Sharp, but considering that Sharp is NOT a first line center, and is NOT younger than Plekanec I'm having a hard time understanding why the hell he would trade his best center for a winger who is a year older and has played on one of the best offensive teams in the league for the last 5 years.

As for your comments about Plekanec being "sheltered" that really couldn't be further from the truth. If he was dealt to a team like Chicago they would use him to lessen how much Toews has to play in a shutdown role and on the PK. So he wouldn't get sheltered at all.

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07-12-2012, 03:43 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I'm not even certain that's a playoff team with that center depth. Someone goes down, mckinnon here we come.
It's not close to a cup team with Plek either...and that is the point of maybe considering a trade with the Hawks (a team with several nice young pieces). I realize Montreal is not an easy place to ask for patience and a half a step backwards to take one forward is a tough sell for a brand new GM. If you could work a deal that brings in a solid dman (Hjalmersson) and perhaps a close to NHL ready prospect (Morin, Pirri, Kruger, and or a pick) you may be better off in a year or two when you are in a position to more realistically compete for a cup (and I did not say or mean just make the playoffs). Force feed the kids expanded roles before the are ready and see if they can grow into something special together.

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07-12-2012, 03:45 PM
  #198
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It's not close to a playoff team with Plek either...and that is the point of maybe considering a trade with the Hawks (a team with several nice young pieces). I realize Montreal is not an easy place to ask for patience and a half a step backwards to take one forward is a tough sell for a brand new GM. If you could work a deal that brings in a solid dman (Hjalmersson) and perhaps a close to NHL ready prospect (Morin, Pirri, Kruger, and or a pick) you may be better off in a year or two when you are in a position to more realistically compete for a cup (and I did not say or mean just make the playoffs). Force feed the kids expanded roles before the are ready and see if they can grow into something special together.
If Montreal is as far away from a playoff team as you claim they are...what the hell good would adding another Left handed d-man, who is a UFA in 2 years do for them?

Your logic makes absolutely zero sense.

Trade your best forward away because you are not a playoff team, and the main piece coming back is a 25 year old d-man 2 years from UFA....

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07-12-2012, 03:46 PM
  #199
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Cut it out, it's Hossa we want.
We've always wanted Hossa since the days his gloves were flying into Montreal

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07-12-2012, 03:46 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
thought this was agreed on when the Hawks allowed Bergevin to leave the organisation
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
C'mon man, you guys got us back by taking Gauthier.
Hahaha! Even.

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