gretzky and bossy may have been "pansies" because theyd get chewed out by their coach for fighting someone and risk breaking their hand or trading 5 minutes with a guy who doesn't have 1/100th the skill they did. lemieux played with kevin stevens, rick tocchet, and had jay caufield and francois leroux on his team. you may not want to believe it because your beloved ulfie was on the team but that team had enforcers.
Stevens and Tocchet= enforcers ? Gotta be kidding.
And honestly, what Ulf did for you ? Stole your girlfriend ? Or hit your "star player", then turtled against your "enforcer" (bc. "star player" wasn't man enough to face Ulf himself) ?
Is it really that hard to find a elite hockey player who is also not scared to fight? Fighting is really not that scary, especially when it can get broken up any time you want by hugging your opponent.
I hate enforcers because they turned fighting in hockey into a side show. So much that when a player fights out of anger, and hits someone on the ground, everyone is up in arms about breaking the code and other BS.
If enforcers played to actually enforce, not get their fight in the 1st period, you would see many of them getting suspended for having multiple instigator penalties. (yes you do get suspended for that) but it never happens, because they don't want to make the other enforcer angry and risking getting hurt in a meaningful fight.
Really? Did they force the owners to sign them? Did they force the league to only have a 5 minute penalty for fighting?
You have zero idea what you are talking about when it comes to fighting. It's not the enforcer who has made fighting a sideshow, it's the league that has made the enforcer a sideshow by systematically destroying toughness and accountability.
I've never had anything against fighting, however I always hated enforcers. I think existance of enforcers in fact embaraces soft players. Existance of enforcers= existance of "protected" players.
Have you ever seen something equally embarrassing to this ?
Those who love enforcers calls themself old school hockey fans, while they fail to realize that in real old school hockey there were no "enforcers"- and no sacred cows either. Players were supposed to fight their own battles. Richard or Howe were their own enforcers. Gretzky never was forced to fight, or play physical, BC he had his "enforcers".
Another reason against enforcers is my love to gutsy, scrappy guys called "agitators". I know you like to call them rats, or even "cowards" (while, at the same time embaracing Gretzky or Sedin), but I think many of you love to see players like Ott, or Neil inmiditating softer players of opposition
Its no secret, that pesty play of Brad Marchand against Sedins was big reason why Bruins were so dominant against Canucks. Would he be as effective if he'd have to answer some roided goon ? In current era- yes, because he'd turtle, emasculine Sedin and draw instigator, but in 80s ?
{MOD EDIT} Having someone to protect your investments just makes sense. If I'm an owner paying a guy MILLIONS a year I think I would want someone to look out for them.
The reason why Brad Marchands play was so effective is because the Canucks didn't have someone to punch him in the face over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
And so on and so forth.
Last edited by Homeland Security: 06-20-2012 at 01:15 PM.
Reason: Edit
Gretzky wouldn't have lasted 5 years in the NHL with out Semenko he was a marked man. Plus you are asking smaller guys to stand up to 6'3 230 pound forwards.
I didn't read most of this thread. Those who say hockey doesn't need enforcers hasn't played league hockey. To everyone here who has played some sort of league knows that smaller weaker players are targeted and need protection. Enforcers are needed
The idea that enforcers are protecting anyone is a myth.
Fighting is fine but players that can't do anything except fight aren't.
Agreed, Enforcers that can't take a regular shift and be productive shouldn't be in the league. But to say that some players don't need to be protected is just silly. I have played the role of agitator and fighter when needed at every level of hockey I ever played. I know from experience that smaller more skilled players are targeted "harassed,slashed,elbowed,picked on ext.."
That "Enforcer" won the Hart Trophy 4 times, Was a member of the NHL first all-star team 7 times, and is a member of the Hall of Fame.
I don't think he's the type of player the OP is complaining about.
Edit - Unless you were referring to Horner as the enforcer...although even he's a hall of famer as well
I think people are confusing enforcer with power forwards now. An enforcer will never win any type of individual trophy since they are bottom 6 players.
Power Forwards who fought:
Lindros
Neely
D. Hunter (prime years before he declined into the checking role)
Howe (contrary to belief, he only fought 1 or 2 times each season at most. His fighting game is vastly overrated. His elbows and stick work did much of the "fighting.")
Enforcers:
Domi
Twist
Kocur
Williams
Enforcers are needed because you dont want you star players risking hand injuries fighting. In Howes era and before, everyone was tough as **** and that generation was hardworking period, now you have a mix of softies and toughies, thank you Europe and modern society. Coaches back then did not handcuff players from fighting. Now days they even handcuff enforcers.
I've never had anything against fighting, however I always hated enforcers. I think existance of enforcers in fact embaraces soft players. Existance of enforcers= existance of "protected" players.
Have you ever seen something equally embarrassing to this ?
Those who love enforcers calls themself old school hockey fans, while they fail to realize that in real old school hockey there were no "enforcers"- and no sacred cows either. Players were supposed to fight their own battles. Richard or Howe were their own enforcers. Gretzky never was forced to fight, or play physical, BC he had his "enforcers".
Another reason against enforcers is my love to gutsy, scrappy guys called "agitators". I know you like to call them rats, or even "cowards" (while, at the same time embaracing Gretzky or Sedin), but I think many of you love to see players like Ott, or Neil inmiditating softer players of opposition
Its no secret, that pesty play of Brad Marchand against Sedins was big reason why Bruins were so dominant against Canucks. Would he be as effective if he'd have to answer some roided goon ? In current era- yes, because he'd turtle, emasculine Sedin and draw instigator, but in 80s ?
I agree
just read gretzky's biography, he could hardly pass the fitness test
I think people are confusing enforcer with power forwards now. An enforcer will never win any type of individual trophy since they are bottom 6 players.
Power Forwards who fought:
Lindros
Neely
D. Hunter (prime years before he declined into the checking role)
Howe (contrary to belief, he only fought 1 or 2 times each season at most. His fighting game is vastly overrated. His elbows and stick work did much of the "fighting.")
Enforcers:
Domi
Twist
Kocur
Williams
Enforcers are needed because you dont want you star players risking hand injuries fighting. In Howes era and before, everyone was tough as **** and that generation was hardworking period, now you have a mix of softies and toughies, thank you Europe and modern society. Coaches back then did not handcuff players from fighting. Now days they even handcuff enforcers.
{MOD EDIT} Having someone to protect your investments just makes sense. If I'm an owner paying a guy MILLIONS a year I think I would want someone to look out for them.
The reason why Brad Marchands play was so effective is because the Canucks didn't have someone to punch him in the face over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
And so on and so forth.
yet your grinders are often the most effective players in the playoffs
And would Sedin really trust his teammates more if someone would "stood up for him" ? Would he be comfortable with his damsell-in-distress role ? He was hummiliated by Marchand, and he knew it. Thats why he was lacklusting later. Goon jumping Marchand wouldn't change a thing- except maybe powerplay for Bruins
Probably shoulda done it as the Bruins PP sucked back then, sucked last year and will probably suck again this year....if they ever get around to playing that is.
In a non-homer way, I quite liked the Sens last season...
Neil, is arguably the best agitator in the league.. Which helps BUT
Zenon Konopka, yeah the guy fights 30 times a year... BUT he's a machine in the Face off circle, and on the PK (When he's not in the box himself that is)
Matt Carkner, yeah he's more goon than defender... But when he actually get's going during the season, he's a pretty solid defenceman... good at shifting bodies and all that...
Plus, if you look at those 3... They were arguably our best 3 players during the playoffs...
Goons who can actually do something productive for the team, I like...
Goons who can't do much... Well... They're not needed e.g. Francis Lessard.
I just think it's important to have someone protect your investments you know? Besides, I will take a good ol rivalry like in the 80's over the product we are being served now!
I think people are confusing enforcer with power forwards now. An enforcer will never win any type of individual trophy since they are bottom 6 players.
Enforcers:
Williams
Enforcers are needed because you dont want you star players risking hand injuries fighting. In Howes era and before, everyone was tough as **** and that generation was hardworking period, now you have a mix of softies and toughies, thank you Europe and modern society. Coaches back then did not handcuff players from fighting. Now days they even handcuff enforcers.
for the most part i agree with this post. Williams put up some pretty nice #s tho.
