Well, he has been all over the place on this one, hasn't he?
No, I don't think so. He's been consistent. He bid on Suter and Parise with lifetime contracts. He said that there is a number of lifetime contracts that is too many. Before that, he implied that number is four. Where's the inconsistency?
I think it's more like, not enough interest to overcome going home to play with your friend and be near family, or not enough to overcome wanting a 5+ year contract, or not enough to leave the franchise you love the most, near your Christian farm that you have invested so much in.
That explains Suter and ZP. Thing is... there always were these types of considerations. The Wings have had a harder and harder time getting top of the class UFAs ever since Hossa. That's a downward trend.
No, I don't think so. He's been consistent. He bid on Suter and Parise with lifetime contracts. He said that there is a number of lifetime contracts that is too many. Before that, he implied that number is four. Where's the inconsistency?
If he's going to limit himself in number of those types of contracts, he screwed that one up too with the offer to Parise. Why bother? It wasn't a critical need.
That explains Suter and ZP. Thing is... there always were these types of considerations. The Wings have had a harder and harder time getting top of the class UFAs ever since Hossa. That's a downward trend.
Go ahead and list all the big-name UFAs the Wings have got over the years in July, and the years they were acquired. Then tell me about trends (hint: your sample size is too small).
It's not a glass half-full take, nor is it any kind of spin. That's my point. I'm reading what he is saying. You are applying assumptions, speculation, taking things out of context, and putting jet engine compressor blade spin on it.
I'm reading what he's saying too and disagreeing with your version of reality. Oh wait! In your view of things, I'm just posting his quotes, but not really reading them, right?
Quote:
I have his quotes. You do not. Game over.
WTF? Where? I only see me adding links. You're just adding hot air at this point.
Bah humbug to the rest of it. Can lead a horse to water....
It's possible, but my impression is that the writer is left with that impression based on the conversation then chooses to insert this quote to close:
You see, it doesn't really make sense for the writer to link the idea that if they didn't match because you can't make those types of announcements each year. The 'fact' remains that Holland made gargantuan offers but was outbid by the 'home' turf guys. Minnesota had home and money going for it, so where did that realistically leave the Wings? They can't become home, so that leaves money.
You're making assumptions.
Just going by the substance of that article, there was clearly no option to match Suter's Minnesota deal.
The quote you just posted is to back up the writers assumption that Detroit wouldn't have if they had the option. I'm not sure where you can possibly get the idea from that particular article that Detroit had the option to match.
Go ahead and list all the big-name UFAs the Wings have got over the years in July, and the years they were acquired. Then tell me about trends (hint: your sample size is too small).
Fine, I can accept that statistically speaking, I can't declare a trend yet. I can steal from Bob and point out that Holland has been visiting the scrap heap for the past three years.
Just going by the substance of that article, there was clearly no option to match Suter's Minnesota deal.
The quote you just posted is to back up the writers assumption that Detroit wouldn't have if they had the option. I'm not sure where you can possibly get the idea from that particular article that Detroit had the option to match.
Sorry, but if you just go by the article, you can't make that declaration either that they didn't have that opportunity. That is your interpretation.
We signed two UFAs this offseason.
Neither gave us anything close to a "bargain."
Detroit hasn't signed a good free agent since Hossa
Tootoo was offered more by the Predators and by other teams as well. I don't know if that makes him a bargain at 1.9 but he took less than he could have gotten elsewhere to play in Detroit.
Tootoo was offered more by the Predators and by other teams as well. I don't know if that makes him a bargain at 1.9 but he took less than he could have gotten elsewhere to play in Detroit.
Tootoo got benched in the playoffs. I bet this is more of a revenge plot than actually wanting to play for the Wings.
The burden on proof is on the person making the claims.
If you tell me there's an alien outside my window, it doesn't fall upon me to prove it's not there.
He claims that the Wings never had a chance to counter, which is popular myth here as well. Says who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG
Tootoo was offered more by the Predators and by other teams as well. I don't know if that makes him a bargain at 1.9 but he took less than he could have gotten elsewhere to play in Detroit.
Second time I've seen this now. Who said he was offered more?
If he's going to limit himself in number of those types of contracts, he screwed that one up too with the offer to Parise. Why bother? It wasn't a critical need.
I think he offered it to Parise thinking that he had to at least make an offer to him if he was going to chase Suter.
Tootoo was offered more by the Predators and by other teams as well. I don't know if that makes him a bargain at 1.9 but he took less than he could have gotten elsewhere to play in Detroit.
awesome a healthy scratch on a team that destroyed in the playoffs signed for less.
I think he offered it to Parise thinking that he had to at least make an offer to him if he was going to chase Suter.
Which is exactly what I'm think he should never have bought into because Zach wasn't a priority need, especially if it meant you'd use up all your lifetime contract allotment per decade.
He clearly wasn't prepared to fight for full market value (and not his own parsimonious definition of market value) for Parise, and maybe even Suter. Why bother?
He claims that the Wings never had a chance to counter, which is popular myth here as well. Says who?
The Minnesota Wild said once Parise and Suter made their decision to play together, THEY told Minnesota the price for the pair. And it was less than Minnesota offered for Parise, the pair drove it below $100 million on purpose.
I'm not going to claim I know with 100% certainty, but if Suter and Parise actually negotiated together with Minnesota and drove their own prices down a little... in what way would that ever suggest Detroit could counter?
I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem likely.
The Minnesota Wild said once Parise and Suter made their decision to play together, THEY told Minnesota the price for the pair. And it was less than Minnesota offered for Parise, the pair drove it below $100 million on purpose.
I'm not going to claim I know with 100% certainty, but if Suter and Parise actually negotiated together with Minnesota and drove their own prices down a little... in what way would that ever suggest Detroit could counter?
I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem likely.
The mere fact we have to use if's should indicate y'all are sniffing from the same glue tube that I've got in front of me.
---> Except that I actually link to some Holland quotes once in a while, but jaster just tells me he has the quotes and that I'm being selective in the ones I find......
The mere fact we have to use if's should indicate y'all are sniffing from the same glue tube that I've got in front of me.
---> Except that I actually link to some Holland quotes once in a while, but jaster just tells me he has the quotes and that I'm being selective in the ones I find......
The Minnesota Wild claim Parise and Suter negotiated together and set the price. I only say if because some people refuse to believe that and the source I have is, well, the Wild statements.
It's not an "if" in the sense I'm interpreting. It's if you believe the Wild are telling the truth. They flat out said Parise and Suter took control of negotiations and took less than the Wild originally offered to play in Minnesota.
If you want the source, a Wild fan posted it in that mess of the Parise/Suter thread. It had quotes and all that from the guys with the team.
[v. ser-mahyz; n. ser-mahyz, sur-mahyz] Show IPA verb, sur·mised, sur·mis·ing, noun
verb (used with object) 1. to think or infer without certain or strong evidence; conjecture; guess.
verb (used without object) 2. to conjecture or guess.
I do not find fault with your reasoning in arriving to your conclusion based on the evidence we have. I'm saying that none of us have actual proof of what the Wings knew, when and if they would have gone further. I can surmise that they told the agents that was their final offer using the same rationale you do.
Tootoo got benched in the playoffs. I bet this is more of a revenge plot than actually wanting to play for the Wings.
That was definitely a big part of it, but here's his quotes on the signing. It seems pretty clear that the Wings were a team he wanted to play for as well.
Quote:
It's definitely a great honor to be able to have that opportunity to put on a Red Wings jersey. Original Six team. There's a lot of history with the Red Wings. I obviously played against them the last (eight) years. It's always been a great rivalry. I know a lot about the team. It was a great fit for me.
"I can't wait to put on that jersey, play hard, play my game and bring excitement to not only to my teammates but the fans of Detroit."
Quote:
"A few teams were interested and Mr. Holland made a quick phone call," Tootoo said. "I thought this was the best opportunity for me to win a Stanley Cup. Ultimately, that's my goal and I feel the Red Wings are right there.
"It was a pretty spontaneous decision."
Fine, I can accept that statistically speaking, I can't declare a trend yet. I can steal from Bob and point out that Holland has been visiting the scrap heap for the past three years.
What I don't understand is why.
My issue comes with not only with just this. If he were doing this and bringing the kids up from Grand Rapids to give them the expierence that they need (Tartar, Nyquist, Smith, etc) then I would have no issue with it because playing them next to veterans towards the end of their careers is a smart move. However he hasn't been bringing them up enough and let's face it -- Pav and Z aren't getting any younger and who's he plan on building the franchise around when both of them are ready to hang them up? He needs to do one (Sign big name UFAs) or the other (Bringing the kids up and let them play next to the not so big name free agents that are veterans) but not doing both at the same time isn't going to cut it.
I cant take Tootoo seriously when he says Detroit gives him the best chance to win the Stanley Cup. Maybe 2-3 years from now if the prospects pan out.
Tootoo gives DET grit on their 4th line that we haven't seen in sometime. I don't like the contract he got because of the $$ or the length. 2 yrs $1.2-1.5 max I would have been ok with.
