HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Notices

Ruff " Its a little bit of a gamble but we all liked what we saw"

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-12-2012, 02:24 PM
  #201
Stop Winnin
TANK ON BOYS
 
Stop Winnin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Buffalo
Posts: 7,967
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
and in most cases that fixes nothing.

If you want Ruff fired because you don't think he can win a Cup. So be it. But he has shown an ability to win with two different groups of players or different teams if you will. But he can't draw blood from a stone.


He's had roughly 4 "teams" since he's been here.

1) The Hasek era teams were his first 4 seasons

-made playoffs all 4 years
-past 1st round 3x
-conference Finals 2x
-Cup Finals 1x

2) The transition teams in the 3 years leading to the lockout.

-We missed the playoffs in these seasons while the Hasek era team was dismantled and the early pieces of the post lockout team were being acquired. Its also part of the bankruptcy the team dealt with and the NHL running the team.

3) Then we had the post lockout team. Sadly this group was only together for 2 years.

-went to the conference Finals both years.

4) Then we have the post co-captains debacle teams. (the last 5 seasons)

-missed playoffs 3 of those 5 years
-knocked out in 1st round both years we made it.


The two times he struggled to have success was due to personel moves that weakened the team that he had no control over
I'm not saying I think Ruff is a bad coach, he's done well with the teams that he's been given. It's unquestionable that he has been around for far too long though. There needs to be a new message and a new voice in the locker room.

I think he's a good coach. I do question some of the things he does, but there's a reason he's a HC and I'm a fan.

Stop Winnin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 02:35 PM
  #202
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
I'm not saying I think Ruff is a bad coach, he's done well with the teams that he's been given. It's unquestionable that he has been around for far too long though. There needs to be a new message and a new voice in the locker room.
Why? Most of the current players have hardly been exposed to him, particularly with the departures of Connolly, Roy and Hecht in the last two offseasons.

If the team was made up of mostly guys like Vanek, Pommer and Miller, who have all been under Ruff for some time, then your comment would make more sense.

Currently there are only 2 dmen (Myers/Sekera) and 5 forwards (Vanek, Pommer, Stafford, Ellis and Kaleta) and Miller left that were regulars in 09-10. Thats quite a lot of turnover.

I've always been on the side of changing up some of the roster before we throw Ruff over the side. Regier is doing that and now Lindy is starting to get his 5th "team" to work with.

Quote:
I think he's a good coach. I do question some of the things he does, but there's a reason he's a HC and I'm a fan
So do I.

I hardly think he is infallable.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-12-2012 at 02:43 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 02:54 PM
  #203
haseoke39
Brainfart 4 Reinhart
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,842
vCash: 500
I think he doesn't play Vanek enough, overworks one goalie for long stretches without real foresight and commitment to a schedule, gifts ice time to players who don't deserve it, preaches a physical restraint that only emphasizes the team's lack of size and aggression, disrupts team chemistry by constantly dismantling the lines, puts slumping players too often on fourth lines where they neither have the chance to succeed nor provide the energy you need from fourth liners, can't coach a power play for the life of him, and probably (judging by player comments) has inspired some recalcitrance within the locker room from his players in recent years.

His system seems neither particularly brilliant nor particularly futile - its most distinguishing feature is activating the D a lot, which has its benefits and detriments. Our D is fairly mobile and offensively competent, so that's fine. But for all of the above reasons, I'd rather see him let go and see if new blood can't get better results. I kind of see his tenure as reaching the point where it's like the quote "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

haseoke39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 03:40 PM
  #204
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I think he doesn't play Vanek enough,
He gets roughly the same amount of ES + PP ice time as the other top 6 forwards.

And again this year, like last year, his ice time dropped later in the year due to being banged up with injuries. Never understood the obssession some have with Vanek's ice time. He's an average skater and not a great defensive player. Why should he be getting much more ice time than he does?
Quote:
overworks one goalie for long stretches without real foresight and commitment to a schedule,
Look around the league. Most teams battling to make the playoffs do the same thing. Most teams with goalies like Miller will ride them, even if they're not battling to get in. The Kings did it this year with Quick because most coaches/teams feel once you get in, anything can happen. So you do what you can to get in.

This is a criticism thats been long devoid of league context. What Ruff does with Miller is not the exception.

Quote:
gifts ice time to players who don't deserve it
Like who?

Quote:
preaches a physical restraint that only emphasizes the team's lack of size and aggression,
That appears to be changing.
Quote:
disrupts team chemistry by constantly dismantling the lines
This is a myth that needs to die. When the team struggles he rightfully switches them up. He doesn't arbitrarily break up successful lines.

Quote:
puts slumping players too often on fourth lines where they neither have the chance to succeed nor provide the energy you need from fourth liners,
Thats on the player to bounce back. Didn't you just ***** earlier about gifting ice time to players? Now you arguing slumping players shouldn't be demoted? Well which is it?

Quote:
can't coach a power play for the life of him, and probably (judging by player comments)
When we've had success in the playoffs he got the PP going. I'm not too concerned with our PP prowess in the regular season. Post lockout Cup champs PP rankings; 17th, 3rd, 3rd, 20th, 16th, 20th and 17th. Its hardly an indicator of playoff success.

Quote:
has inspired some recalcitrance within the locker room from his players in recent years.
Even if true, those players are gone. But I do love that the very players you and others accuse of being the types of players you can't win with. Then turn around and go after Lindy for not winning with those very players.

Quote:
His system seems neither particularly brilliant nor particularly futile - its most distinguishing feature is activating the D a lot, which has its benefits and detriments. Our D is fairly mobile and offensively competent, so that's fine.
Why are you trying to lump the various ways he has approached things as one overarching system. He has not played it one way in his entire tenure as coach.

He has generally tried to find what works best with what he has. Thats been evrything from a trap with a checking line to an aggressive attacking offensive system. Either you don't know this or don't care. EIther way its foolsih to say there is one system he uses or even one way to sue the various approaches he has tried.

Quote:
But for all of the above reasons, I'd rather see him let go and see if new blood can't get better results. I kind of see his tenure as reaching the point where it's like the quote "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
They reached a point where they decided to change the core of this team. Ruff has proven he can win if given enough talent. I can't think of too many coaches that win without it.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 03:41 PM
  #205
Myllz
Pavelski Lite
 
Myllz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 12,802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Like who?

Myllz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 03:48 PM
  #206
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
Nice

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 03:48 PM
  #207
Stop Winnin
TANK ON BOYS
 
Stop Winnin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Buffalo
Posts: 7,967
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
That mug gives me nightmares...

Stop Winnin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 04:55 PM
  #208
haseoke39
Brainfart 4 Reinhart
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,842
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
He gets roughly the same amount of ES + PP ice time as the other top 6 forwards.

And again this year, like last year, his ice time dropped later in the year due to being banged up with injuries. Never understood the obssession some have with Vanek's ice time. He's an average skater and not a great defensive player. Why should he be getting much more ice time than he does?

Vanek's our most offensively gifted player and he gets the 12th most ice time on the team. That's really not within what I would consider the margin of discretion a smart coach might use. Vanek has done a good job killing penalties in the past, but Ruff refuses to use him there. He's not a great defensive player, but I think he's certainly better than average, better than Roy, for example. In addition, Vanek is historically easily frustrated and very hard on himself. Giving him more responsibility and ice time, especially because I think he deserves it, can only help exponentially with the confidence issues.

Look around the league. Most teams battling to make the playoffs do the same thing. Most teams with goalies like Miller will ride them, even if they're not battling to get in. The Kings did it this year with Quick because most coaches/teams feel once you get in, anything can happen. So you do what you can to get in.

This is a criticism thats been long devoid of league context. What Ruff does with Miller is not the exception.

If you insist, I'll accept that this is commonly done. But that doesn't necessarily make it smart hockey, especially because I think Miller has shown us that he's a goaltender who can wear down under that kind of schedule. He's very thin, and that might account for part of it. If Quick had a history, e.g., of breaking down under too many consecutive games, I would also expect Sutter to use him differently. But apparently this spring's schedule suited him to a T. I don't think Miller has the same reaction.

Like who?

Connolly, for one. The guy kept getting endless chances to play in physical games when he would regularly get wiped out along the wall every shift and turn the puck over. Hecht is another example. While responsible defensively, he's not a guy who can control the puck and create offensive zone time very well. He's just a guy who you're sure will get back when he invariably loses it. But he's often been a top line guy for Ruff, even after Briere left.


That appears to be changing.

Well, what's changing might be the roster Darcy puts together, but I don't see anything changing about Ruff.

This is a myth that needs to die. When the team struggles he rightfully switches them up. He doesn't arbitrarily break up successful lines.

Of course he doesn't. But you'll see my response in your other thread. I think he doesn't have the patience to pick guys with good history or complementary skill sets and let them ride out a bad stretch for the sake of developing chemistry. Ruff has famously said that every guy on his roster needs to be ready to play with every other guy on the ice. I think that attitude permeates his line shuffling practice. I think he gives up far too quickly, after a bad game or even a period, and the result is his players don't ever gel.


Thats on the player to bounce back. Didn't you just ***** earlier about gifting ice time to players? Now you arguing slumping players shouldn't be demoted? Well which is it?

I'm not saying slumping players shouldn't be demoted, but I think the way he does it is to use his fourth line as a grab bag of whoever is performing the most poorly regardless of how those players complement each other. So Brad Boyes spent most of the season with a grinder and a midget. Brad deserved less ice time, but the way to do it is to move guys onto a second or third line, maybe make them miss some shifts in favor of somebody hot, but to try and keep giving them some ice time with complementary players nevertheless - not to put them for most of the season with whatever misfit toys you have and let them rot. I think that's a recipe for making struggling players worse.


When we've had success in the playoffs he got the PP going. I'm not too concerned with our PP prowess in the regular season. Post lockout Cup champs PP rankings; 17th, 3rd, 3rd, 20th, 16th, 20th and 17th. Its hardly an indicator of playoff success.

Well, okay. I mean, you've basically said it was good when we were winning, but we mostly haven't won. And then you said but that's okay because it doesn't matter either way. That doesn't really comfort me or address the point.

Even if true, those players are gone. But I do love that the very players you and others accuse of being the types of players you can't win with. Then turn around and go after Lindy for not winning with those very players.

True, but I'm doubtful that those are the only players who feel that way. It's so rare for players to come out in the NHL and attack the coach, I think it's likely that other voices are just more prudent in the media.

Why are you trying to lump the various ways he has approached things as one overarching system. He has not played it one way in his entire tenure as coach.

He has generally tried to find what works best with what he has. Thats been evrything from a trap with a checking line to an aggressive attacking offensive system. Either you don't know this or don't care. EIther way its foolsih to say there is one system he uses or even one way to sue the various approaches he has tried.

I'm talking about the system he's been employing for a couple years now, and I didn't even criticize it, so I don't know why you're defending it.

They reached a point where they decided to change the core of this team. Ruff has proven he can win if given enough talent. I can't think of too many coaches that win without it.

The problem is, I think he has a very talented roster. The Sabres were picked as cup contenders this year.
See bolded.


Last edited by haseoke39: 07-12-2012 at 05:03 PM.
haseoke39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 05:25 PM
  #209
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
See bolded.
- Vanek was 4th in total ice time among forwards not 12th. The 3 that got more ice time only got it due to PKing. As for vanek not PKing its a non-issue. We have better PKers and he doesn't need to do it. Btw why on earth would you lump in dmen to rank his ice time?

- I'm not a huge fan of Miller playing a ton either but its not unusual. Hopefully with less back to backs its not a problem.

- I don't even know what the hell your point is with Connolly and Hecht. Was Connoly supposed to be held out of games because the other team was physical? Or get less ice time? Thats just a bizarre opinion. As for Hecht you're just plain wrong. He was one of the BEST players at controlling the puck down low and create offensive zone time.

-So you're mad that Boyes was bad this year and are tryiong to blame Ruff for it. Boyes did gradually move down the depth chart until he was on the 4th line. Not really sure what else was supposed to be done.

-My point about the PP is regular season success is not a gauge of playoff success. In the playoffs its a match up against a specific team and their PK unit. Ruff has had success in the past in those playoff situations breaking down a specific PK unit.

-They were not Cup contenders this past season. They were picked as a playoff team and missed the playoffs.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-12-2012 at 05:33 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 05:35 PM
  #210
Pie Man
A-Pie
 
Pie Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Im the guy next door
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,459
vCash: 500
Im not a Sabres fan but when I see your guys line combo and see that Hodgson is the top center and Ennis at #2 or #3 I thought ya guys were crazy, heck some lineup even had Grigorenko at top center spot! come on! he felt for a reason, but that is another topic.

Anyway, Im happy that is not how guys that run the Sabres see it as Ennis is clearly ahead of Hodgson on the deep chart to me.

Pie Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 05:42 PM
  #211
TheyAreGoodScaryGood
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,786
vCash: 500
Ennis isnt bad defensively, why does everyone always doubt him. I remember suggesting him at center last off season and it was shot down by everyone because of his defense. He's a great center and he works hard to get back and help out

TheyAreGoodScaryGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 05:44 PM
  #212
haseoke39
Brainfart 4 Reinhart
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,842
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
- Vanek was 4th in total ice time among forwards not 12th. The 3 that got more ice time only got it due to PKing. As for vanek not PKing its a non-issue. We have better PKers and he doesn't need to do it. Btw why on earth would you lump in dmen to rank his ice time?

Well, Vanek was 8th among Sabres forwards in even strength TOI per game last year. Check the numbers. Furthermore, let's look at the league-wide picture. Vanek, among forwards, was tied for 49th in scoring. He was 143rd in ice time among forwards. I just think it's plainly an imbalance, that most coaches would rely more on their most potent offensive weapon.

- I'm not a huge fan of Miller playing a ton either but its not unusual. Hopefully with less back to backs its not a problem.

- I don't even know what the hell your point is with Connolly and Hecht. Was Connoly supposed to be held out of games because the other team was physical? Or get less ice time? Thats just a bizarre opinion. As for Hecht you're just plain wrong. He was one of the BEST players at controlling the puck down low and create offensive zone time.

Well, yeah, I would expect when a player struggles as badly as Connolly that he would get less ice time. How is that bizarre?

-So you're mad that Boyes was bad this year and are tryiong to blame Ruff for it. Boyes did gradually move down the depth chart until he was on the 4th line. Not really sure what else was supposed to be done.

I just said what I thought should be done. I'm not saying Boyes wasn't also to blame, but I expect a coach to try and get the best out of players, not just punish them.

-My point about the PP is regular season success is not a gauge of playoff success. In the playoffs its a match up against a specific team and their PK unit. Ruff has had success in the past in those playoff situations breaking down a specific PK unit.

How recently?

-They were not Cup contenders this past season. They were picked as a playoff team and missed the playoffs.

They were quite a few prognosticators at the beginning of last year who would've disagreed.

Ditto.

haseoke39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 05:44 PM
  #213
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 37,186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pie Man View Post
Im not a Sabres fan but when I see your guys line combo and see that Hodgson is the top center and Ennis at #2 or #3 I thought ya guys were crazy, heck some lineup even had Grigorenko at top center spot! come on! he felt for a reason, but that is another topic.

Anyway, Im happy that is not how guys that run the Sabres see it as Ennis is clearly ahead of Hodgson on the deep chart to me.
Order is irrelevant, they'll get rolled fairly equally anyways. What we can be fairly sure of is Foligno-Ennis-Stafford will be one line, and Vanek-Hodgson will be together on one line with either Pominville, Ott, or Tropp (outside chance maybe Gerbe or Grigorenko). I guess by convention most of us just list the line with Vanek first. It becomes a catch-22: if you list Foligno-Ennis-Stafford first, then "why is Vanek or Pommer your 2nd/3rd LW/RW?", esp since those two might very well be on different lines as well.



And it doesn't matter why Grigs fell...Couturier fell but he was still ready last year anyways. Most of us expect Grigorenko will get a shot in camp and perhaps 9 games before a decision is made on him.

New Sabres Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2012, 05:47 PM
  #214
tsujimoto74
Registered User
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pie Man View Post
Im not a Sabres fan but when I see your guys line combo and see that Hodgson is the top center and Ennis at #2 or #3 I thought ya guys were crazy, heck some lineup even had Grigorenko at top center spot! come on! he felt for a reason, but that is another topic.

Anyway, Im happy that is not how guys that run the Sabres see it as Ennis is clearly ahead of Hodgson on the deep chart to me.
Lines 1-3 all see pretty equal ES ice time, so what "number" line a player is on is kind of irrelevant unless it's #4.

tsujimoto74 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2012, 01:50 AM
  #215
Pie Man
A-Pie
 
Pie Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Im the guy next door
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,459
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Lines 1-3 all see pretty equal ES ice time, so what "number" line a player is on is kind of irrelevant unless it's #4.
What mean is that most of your guys are ranking Ennis behind Hodgson and sometime even Grigorenko ahead of Ennis for the future and someone even ranked them over him right now!

Pie Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2012, 02:44 AM
  #216
Rob Paxon
Z E M G U S
 
Rob Paxon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: corfu, ny
Country: United States
Posts: 14,188
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Rob Paxon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pie Man View Post
What mean is that most of your guys are ranking Ennis behind Hodgson and sometime even Grigorenko ahead of Ennis for the future and someone even ranked them over him right now!
It's not a ranking, though. Ennis is in most people's line-ups with the line that was successful to end last season: Foligno-Ennis-Stafford. It's usually listed as the 3rd line because that's essentially what it was last season, but the order doesn't mean anything. Hodgson played well with Vanek and virtually everyone has them together again. By virtue of that line having Vanek it is treated as the de facto 1st line, especially if Pominville is also on it.

Rob Paxon is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.