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Old
07-12-2012, 06:00 PM
  #926
DrHamburg
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I think Bobby Ryan would be a tremendous fit on this team. However I really hope Homer doesn't blow this. Sending them a roster player like voracek would be silly. I'd do gus, wellwood/harry z/winger prospect, laughton, first or something like that. They want a center and defense from what I gather and look at their roster. With this team, no point in giving up read or vora if you ask me.

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07-12-2012, 06:10 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
In what world is Nash slow? I don't think that's at all because he's slow. Definitely a faster and better skater than Hartnell who thrived in our system.
Nash is a good skater, but not really a burner (like a Coburn in that regard).

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07-12-2012, 06:11 PM
  #928
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If I am the Flyers, I keep Giroux, Couturier, B. Schenn, Voracek, and Simmonds as my core forwards and Coburn as my one defenseman I wouldn't trade (still want to see more from L. Schenn, and Grossmann). Everyone else would be "available." That being said I would definitely trade Read+ prospects+ picks in a deal for Ryan.

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07-12-2012, 06:21 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
I think Bobby Ryan would be a tremendous fit on this team. However I really hope Homer doesn't blow this. Sending them a roster player like voracek would be silly. I'd do gus, wellwood/harry z/winger prospect, laughton, first or something like that. They want a center and defense from what I gather and look at their roster. With this team, no point in giving up read or vora if you ask me.
I would give up Read, Wellwood, Gustafsson, or something like that, but I don't want to trade Voracek for any reason. That said, Anaheim should not settle for a package like that.

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07-12-2012, 06:25 PM
  #930
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If Voracek is included in a deal for Ryan than the most I'd offer is Voracek + 2nd for Ryan. And there's no way Anaheim does that, so I'd just walk away from this one.

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07-12-2012, 06:25 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I would give up Read, Wellwood, Gustafsson, or something like that, but I don't want to trade Voracek for any reason. That said, Anaheim should not settle for a package like that.
I agree. I said a while ago that the best package I would be willing to part with in a trade for Nash or Ryan would be:

Read
Cousins
Laughton or First
MAB

or something close to that. But, I agree with you that I don't think anaheim or Columbus will or should accept that package.


Edit: I'd also be willing to move Meszaros in one of those packages if we could find a suitable replacement for him.

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07-12-2012, 06:30 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Read
Cousins
Laughton or First
MAB
7.8 million reasons not to give up an inexpensive productive winger, future middle relief aggitator, a born Flyer, and a 1st round pick in one of the best draft classes since 2003.

... well, MAB is expendable at the moment.

Also, that 7.8 million is Giroux's money. He just doesn't have it yet.

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07-12-2012, 06:33 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
7.8 million reasons not to give up an inexpensive productive winger, future middle relief aggitator, a born Flyer, and a 1st round pick in one of the best draft classes since 2003.

... well, MAB is expendable at the moment.
I am on the Ryan bandwagon as compared to Nash. But you have to give up value to get value and most of those pieces haven't proven much other than read. But one thing this team should do is try to always have a first round pick at least every other year, which is why I said Laughton or a first.

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07-12-2012, 07:11 PM
  #934
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For those of you not wanting to deal Voracek in a deal for Ryan, what exactly are you expecting Voracek to do this year points-wise? Do you think he'll net 30 goals? Do you think his defense is THAT much better than Ryan's that his lesser offensive abilities will make up for it (or do you perhaps think his offensive abilities are higher as well)?

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07-12-2012, 07:15 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
For those of you not wanting to deal Voracek in a deal for Ryan, what exactly are you expecting Voracek to do this year points-wise? Do you think he'll net 30 goals? Do you think his defense is THAT much better than Ryan's that his lesser offensive abilities will make up for it (or do you perhaps think his offensive abilities are higher as well)?
I dont think it's unreasonable for Voracek to be a 20-40-60 player in the near future if not next season.

Given that he'll be signed for around $4m give or take, it doesnt make sense to give up Voracek + other significant asset(s) for a 35-35-70 player.

If it were straight up or with the addition of a 2nd or a Nick Cousins type prospects, I dont think anybody would hold back. But we know Anaheim will not be trading Ryan for that type of a deal, so it's not worth it to trade Voracek+Read+1st or Voracek+Laughton+1st or any other variation of that trade for Ryan.

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07-12-2012, 07:28 PM
  #936
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I like Voracek for a lot of reasons. He has been very solid defensively which has been a huge problem for us. He has some amazing speed, puck carrying and passing abilities. One of my favorite things about him is his ability to get the offense going since he can carry the puck into the zone by himself with those skills I stated previously. He seemed to be one of the best players on the ice every time he took a shift in the playoffs.

I just think that he has skills that are not easily replaceable. I'm not saying that Ryan doesn't have great talent as well. But I do not want to lose what Voracek brings to the table

Edit: Ryan is also one of my favorite non-flyers including Gagne and Richards

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07-12-2012, 07:33 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
For those of you not wanting to deal Voracek in a deal for Ryan, what exactly are you expecting Voracek to do this year points-wise? Do you think he'll net 30 goals? Do you think his defense is THAT much better than Ryan's that his lesser offensive abilities will make up for it (or do you perhaps think his offensive abilities are higher as well)?
I'm confident playing with Giroux he can hit 30 goals in the future.

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Old
07-12-2012, 07:39 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Thank you. Yes, we lost to the Devils. But I think that any realistic assessment of that series has to address some basic facts working against the Flyers. Yes, Kovalchuk was playing hurt, but so were:

Giroux (double wrist surgery)
Jagr (groin/hip issue)
Hartnell (bad foot in the last games)
JVR (infected surgically repaired broken foot)
Simmonds (surgery on broken finger)
Couturier (foot/knee? and possible concussion)
Briere (back injury from last game, was never right)

Timonen (back surgery and sore knee)
Carle (surgery on stomach muscle)
Meszaros (only played last game - back surgery)
Grossmann (concussion/knee)
Lilja (had a minor injury vs. Pens)
Kubina (undisclosed, but you could tell he was hurt - ribs? shoulder?
Bourdon (out with concussion)

Bryzgalov (chipped bone in foot)

Who have I forgot? I'm sure there were a lot of other undiagnosed injuries too, including Schenn having a concussion after Asham's cheapshot.

The fact is that the Flyers took so many uncalled cheapshots against the Pens that they weren't healthy enough to beat a good Devils team coming off a pattycake-pattycake series with the Panthers. Our entire D was decimated, and no one can win like that. Gus and Coburn were the only ones who didn't appear to be playing hurt.

In the absence of burning hatred, the boring Devils just let the injured Flyerdogs lie, to their credit. The Devils were also good enough to beat a very good Ranger team. Now they've lost their captain.

I really hope Homer doesn't lose his mind and trade a Voracek for Ryan. We need to keep Jake. I would think about dealing Read and Meszaros or Simmonds, if necessary, but not JV. And if we're giving away that package, I'd almost sooner get Bouwmeester instead.

Keep the kids!
It must be the summer heat, Larry. I'm agreeing with so many of your posts. We can pretty much toss out any conclusions about the Flyers and playoff appearances after this past season's showing.

Every other series: Tour de France
Flyers - Penguins series: Formula 1 demolition derby

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Old
07-12-2012, 07:41 PM
  #939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I dont think it's unreasonable for Voracek to be a 20-40-60 player in the near future if not next season.

Given that he'll be signed for around $4m give or take, it doesnt make sense to give up Voracek + other significant asset(s) for a 35-35-70 player.

If it were straight up or with the addition of a 2nd or a Nick Cousins type prospects, I dont think anybody would hold back. But we know Anaheim will not be trading Ryan for that type of a deal, so it's not worth it to trade Voracek+Read+1st or Voracek+Laughton+1st or any other variation of that trade for Ryan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
I like Voracek for a lot of reasons. He has been very solid defensively which has been a huge problem for us. He has some amazing speed, puck carrying and passing abilities. One of my favorite things about him is his ability to get the offense going since he can carry the puck into the zone by himself with those skills I stated previously. He seemed to be one of the best players on the ice every time he took a shift in the playoffs.

I just think that he has skills that are not easily replaceable. I'm not saying that Ryan doesn't have great talent as well. But I do not want to lose what Voracek brings to the table

Edit: Ryan is also one of my favorite non-flyers including Gagne and Richards
Maybe I don't see what you guys are seeing. I think Voracek is a good player, but he is not on the same level as Bobby Ryan and I am not convinced he ever reaches that. Being a 60 point defensively responsible player is good for sure, and some day Voracek might get there. But Bobby Ryan is a 30+ goal, 60+ point guy now who is not as bad defensively as many make him out to be (at least according to Ducks fans) and still has time to grow, despite his advanced age of 25.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayshplaysh View Post
I'm confident playing with Giroux he can hit 30 goals in the future.
Bobby Ryan could do that now.

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Old
07-12-2012, 07:43 PM
  #940
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Maybe I don't see what you guys are seeing. I think Voracek is a good player, but he is not on the same level as Bobby Ryan and I am not convinced he ever reaches that. Being a 60 point defensively responsible player is good for sure, and some day Voracek might get there. But Bobby Ryan is a 30+ goal, 60+ point guy now who is not as bad defensively as many make him out to be (at least according to Ducks fans) and still has time to grow, despite his advanced age of 25.



Bobby Ryan could do that now.
It's the fact that we would have to add something substantial to Voracek in order to land Ryan.

I dont think I've seen anyone here say they wouldnt deal Voracek straight up for Ryan.

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07-12-2012, 07:47 PM
  #941
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The more I think about Voracek and Ryan the less and less I'm willing to trade Jake. When you compare the two of them, there's simply more to like about Voracek over Ryan.

Voracek - Younger, Cheaper, Faster, Better Defensively, Better Puck-handler, Better Passer

VS.

Ryan - Better Goal-scorer

Looking at that and Anaheim wants Voracek + Read + MAB + picks? I don't think this should even be considered. Having said that it would be nice to add Ryan's scoring, but not in a package like what Anaheim wants.

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07-12-2012, 07:59 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Maybe I don't see what you guys are seeing. I think Voracek is a good player, but he is not on the same level as Bobby Ryan and I am not convinced he ever reaches that. Being a 60 point defensively responsible player is good for sure, and some day Voracek might get there. But Bobby Ryan is a 30+ goal, 60+ point guy now who is not as bad defensively as many make him out to be (at least according to Ducks fans) and still has time to grow, despite his advanced age of 25.



Bobby Ryan could do that now.
Bobby Ryan is also 2 years older then Voracek.

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Old
07-12-2012, 08:07 PM
  #943
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Originally Posted by ayshplaysh View Post
Bobby Ryan is also 2 years older then Voracek.
Bobby Ryan is 25 years young.

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07-12-2012, 08:10 PM
  #944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
It's the fact that we would have to add something substantial to Voracek in order to land Ryan.

I dont think I've seen anyone here say they wouldnt deal Voracek straight up for Ryan.
Oh yeah, it's been said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockjaw333 View Post
To be honest I'm not sure I'd even want to trade Voracek for Ryan straight up, let alone for the craziness in that rumor. Really think we should stick with Jake.
There were people agreeing with as well IIRC, but I don't feel like sifting through the whole thread to find it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayshplaysh View Post
Bobby Ryan is also 2 years older then Voracek.
And at the same age as Voracek, as a rookie, Bobby Ryan had 31 goals and 26 assists, while Voracek, at 22 with four years experience put up 18 goals and 31 assists. The fact that Voracek is younger is nice, but Ryan is only two years older. That isn't a big difference. If Ryan can put up those numbers at that age with 0 years experience, but Voracek can't with four years experience, why would you think Voracek is going to eclipse or even catch up to Bobby Ryan? I'm not saying he won't (but I don't think he will), but simply because he is two years younger means very little.

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07-12-2012, 08:48 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by djlethal08 View Post
The more I think about Voracek and Ryan the less and less I'm willing to trade Jake. When you compare the two of them, there's simply more to like about Voracek over Ryan.

Voracek - Younger, Cheaper, Faster, Better Defensively, Better Puck-handler, Better Passer

VS.

Ryan - Better Goal-scorer

Looking at that and Anaheim wants Voracek + Read + MAB + picks? I don't think this should even be considered. Having said that it would be nice to add Ryan's scoring, but not in a package like what Anaheim wants.
I'll fix it for you:

Voracek - 22 Years Old, a RFA (possible arbitration), Faster Skater, Decent Defender, Good Puck Handling, Good Passer, Average Goal Scorer.

Ryan - 25 Years Old, Under contract for 3 more years @ 5.1, Fast Skater, Decent Defender, Good Puck Handling, Average Passing, Above Average Goal Scorer.

Ryan scores more goals, Voracek has better puck movement/control and is marginally faster.

I agree, it would be nice to add Ryan's scoring. The package asked is a little lopsided.

I feel like fair value for him would be Voracek (with a reasonable cap hit) + D-prospect + 2nd round pick 2013, but for that price Anaheim might as well hang on to him.

I think at the end of the day, both teams are like... "Meh, whatever." and nothing happens.

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07-12-2012, 09:02 PM
  #946
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh yeah, it's been said:



There were people agreeing with as well IIRC, but I don't feel like sifting through the whole thread to find it.



And at the same age as Voracek, as a rookie, Bobby Ryan had 31 goals and 26 assists, while Voracek, at 22 with four years experience put up 18 goals and 31 assists. The fact that Voracek is younger is nice, but Ryan is only two years older. That isn't a big difference. If Ryan can put up those numbers at that age with 0 years experience, but Voracek can't with four years experience, why would you think Voracek is going to eclipse or even catch up to Bobby Ryan? I'm not saying he won't (but I don't think he will), but simply because he is two years younger means very little.
I explained before that it was a sarcastic comment in response to some of the crazy rumored deals being thrown around. Obviously 1 for 1, you do that trade, but there is no dimension where that happens. I just think that the extras that are being thrown around are insane. Another Dman, when that's our weakness? Voracek + Read? And of course everyone's favorite throw-in on here, a 1st round pick? I just wouldn't make a trade like that.

I don't even want to lose Read. I like this group. But then you think about Giroux and the fact that he needs an impact winger to cash in on the entirety of his prime and get maximum production. Is that winger on our roster already? Not sure... but I know this franchise is looking for just that. Just hope they don't mess up the roster to do it, you know?

I said before, I think Holmgren will pull this trade off. Just have a feeling....and I think he will probably over pay a bit. And hopefully those of us who like the roster as is are proven wrong and Ryan becomes a monster on Giroux's wing.

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07-12-2012, 10:01 PM
  #947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Bobby Ryan is 25 years young.
Voracek is still 2 years younger, I'm saying that what is the point of trading for Ryan when we have Voracek? Is the additional 5-10 goals going into this next season really worth what we'd have to give up for him? It just seems pointless to me.

How about we give Voracek a chance? That's all I'm asking.

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07-12-2012, 10:42 PM
  #948
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Originally Posted by djlethal08 View Post
The more I think about Voracek and Ryan the less and less I'm willing to trade Jake. When you compare the two of them, there's simply more to like about Voracek over Ryan.

Voracek - Younger, Cheaper, Faster, Better Defensively, Better Puck-handler, Better Passer

VS.

Ryan - Better Goal-scorer, More Physical, Stronger on the puck, Signed for 3 more years at a good cap hit

Looking at that and Anaheim wants Voracek + Read + MAB + picks? I don't think this should even be considered. Having said that it would be nice to add Ryan's scoring, but not in a package like what Anaheim wants.

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07-12-2012, 10:43 PM
  #949
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Voracek scored 8 less points than Ryan last season. And people want to deal him, read, gus, and a first for ryan? If Voracek played with Giroux last season he would've had more points. I would love to have Ryan on this team, he would be a great fit, but lets not get crazy with trade proposals of a guy who wants out.

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07-12-2012, 10:47 PM
  #950
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Shoddy effort from Shea Weber here. Price should drop for him if Homer shows this video to Poile. AMIRITE!?

I've been convinced. I want Ryan. But I don't want him at the expense of Voracek (+). I'll give up any mix of Read, Simmonds, Mez, Gus, MAB, Cousins, Laughton, picks etc., but not Jake.

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