Thats actually just not a similar comparable, and if you really think they are similar then we will just have to disagree.
Am I the only one who thinks that? I dont see Boyle in Joe C at all.
First of all, Boyle could barely skate when he got to the NHL, like it was simply awful. Joe colborne on the other hand has played in the NHL and looked good doing it, and his skating has been average. Boyle's was not even average when he got into the league.
Second of all, Colborne has twice the skill Boyle does, I dont think thats even questionable.
Boyle has a decent shot, and had a couple good years potting some goals.
Colborne is actually capable of goal production, but even more importantly has the playmaking and puck protection skills to generate offense. Dont see that with Boyle.
Has more skill? Or Colborne is just a Leaf prospect who gets hyped and to date all of his accomplishments which aren't that many are in the minor leagues?
Both players were taken as project 1st rounders cause of their size.
Boyle and Colborne had very similar NCAA numbers. Then Boyle went on to have better AHL numbers.
If Colborne is so much better offensively why don't his stats reflect it? If Colborne was so good why did he never play in the world juniors?
Add up all the question marks and maybe Colborne isn't the blue chip prospect some people like to think he is just cause he's part of the Leafs organization. However, that doesn't mean he won't become a very useful NHLer. Boyle is a realistic comparison. Maybe Colborne becomes a better player but it sure won't be much better.
As far as skating Boyle isn't the fastest guy in the world but he has improved and does cover a lot of ice.
Boyle is a very useful player who saw the most penalty kill time of any forward on one of the best PK teams in the league. Is very reliable 5 on 5. I'd take him on the Leafs anyday. Not every player is going to be used in an offensive role where he's counted on to primarily produce offence and see 1:30+ minutes per game on average of powerplay time.
Looking beyond next season Toronto has Kessel, Lupul, Grabo and JVR clearly ahead of Colborne. That leaves 2 offensive type slots open. One slot needs to go to a true # 1 center or very good # 2 something Colborne clearly isn't. So that leaves one spot but everybody is also high on Kadri and CMac. Also don't forget about Kulemin and Frattin also competing for those minutes.
Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 07-12-2012 at 08:11 PM.
I don't know why people are a) saying his potential is a third liner, and b) saying they would be happy with that.
IMO he's a second liner. He's big but doesn't use his size enough to be a third liner. But thats fine because he does 't play a physical game, he doesn't need to rely on being physical. He also has more skill and play making ability than a third liner. His offense is a second line type. If he hits and improves defensively a little, he'd be really good.
I don't know why people are a) saying his potential is a third liner, and b) saying they would be happy with that.
I don't think anyone's saying that, or at least I hope not. He's not a third line type at all based on his defensive ability and physicality. Third lines are supposed to give you "safe" minutes and having Colborne there will NOT give you that.
The only reason people say 2nd line is because that's his only option because for the above reasons, he's not a safe minute defensive player, and he's sure as heck not a potential first liner.
He has one, maybe two jobs (if he converts to a wing) max in the NHL available to him, and that's just the reality of it. Whether he can take it from an established player like Grabovski or any other team's 2nd line is extremely unlikely. Keep in mind that we are in fact a lottery team so it stands to reason that most teams ahead of us already have better options at the 2nd line centre ice position.
I don't think anyone's saying that, or at least I hope not. He's not a third line type at all based on his defensive ability and physicality. Third lines are supposed to give you "safe" minutes and having Colborne there will NOT give you that.
The only reason people say 2nd line is because that's his only option because for the above reasons, he's not a safe minute defensive player, and he's sure as heck not a potential first liner.
He has one, maybe two jobs (if he converts to a wing) max in the NHL available to him, and that's just the reality of it. Whether he can take it from an established player like Grabovski or any other team's 2nd line is extremely unlikely. Keep in mind that we are in fact a lottery team so it stands to reason that most teams ahead of us already have better options at the 2nd line centre ice position.
So ... if it turns out that he IS the player who put up 19 points in 13 games before getting hurt - you're STILL saying that he's likely a bust? (which is essentially what you're saying).
I don't think anyone's saying that, or at least I hope not. He's not a third line type at all based on his defensive ability and physicality. Third lines are supposed to give you "safe" minutes and having Colborne there will NOT give you that.
The only reason people say 2nd line is because that's his only option because for the above reasons, he's not a safe minute defensive player, and he's sure as heck not a potential first liner.
He has one, maybe two jobs (if he converts to a wing) max in the NHL available to him, and that's just the reality of it. Whether he can take it from an established player like Grabovski or any other team's 2nd line is extremely unlikely. Keep in mind that we are in fact a lottery team so it stands to reason that most teams ahead of us already have better options at the 2nd line centre ice position.
Lots of prolific scorers at the junior and AHL level were forced to become defensive types to make it to the NHL level.
Colborne is no different.
As far as how physical Colborne is. Not all 3rd liners are wrecking ball types.
Colborne however will hit but it just won't be the big wow types hits. It'll be more of the Poni/Antropov/Kulemin type hits where he rubs people out along the boards. Colborne is also huge which means he's incredibly hard to get around or shot pucks through and he's strong at protecting the puck.
So ... if it turns out that he IS the player who put up 19 points in 13 games before getting hurt - you're STILL saying that he's likely a bust? (which is essentially what you're saying).
19 points in 13 games of AHL hockey is nothing eye-popping at all in such a small sample, and especially when considering Joe Crabb had similar output.
What I'm saying is that there is no place for Joe Colborne in a bottom 6 role, NONE whatsoever.
There COULD be a spot in a 2nd line centre position, but it is extremely unlikely, to put it nicely. I've went through my reasoning in the post you quoted.
And yes, this player is out BEST centre prospect....
Both have been accussed of not playing an aggressive enough of a style at times.
Both have good hands for such big guys. Just not good enough hands to be primarly offensive players at the next level.
If Colborne develops into someone as good as Boyle I'm very happy. A very useful 3rd liner whose main goal is to shutdown opposition players but can also chip in 30 to 40 points a year and ends up being #6/7 in terms of total ice time in the forward group. Who is tough to play against namely cause of his size, is relied on as a top penalty killer and can be used on the powerplay occassionally.
When I made a list of such players a few months back, Boyle was one of the guys.
The thing is, who cares? Are we really happy to have "the next Brian Boyle"?
Every team has a number of prospects that project to be mediocre NHL forwards; how does this put us ahead of any other team?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew75
Um ... Colborne went the college route - not junior. Also, had he not gotten injured last year and kept up a pace even close to what he started the year, he would have likely finished the year with the Leafs.
I have no problem with his development so far, and am project he's a fully time Leaf in the top 6 by the end of next season.
I know Colborne played College, but he played two years there after being drafted, which would have been his last two junior years.
You can project that for him if you like. Just know that you have a 2/7 and you're projecting flopping a full house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower
Alexandre Burrows
Pierre-Alexandre Parenteau
Clarke MacArthur
Alexei Ponikarovsky
Ryane Clowe
Jason Pominville
Brad Boyes
Kris Versteeg
Tomas Fleischmann
Curtis Glencross
David Desharnais
Andrei Kostitsyn
Brooks Laich
- Yes, Parenteau, Burrows, MacArthur, Clowe, Versteeg, Fleischmann & Descharnais are examples. Assuming Descharnais isn't a one year wonder.
- Sure, I guess you could say Pony was a legit top-6 forward for two seasons. Glencross & Kostitsyn are poor examples, they play in the top-6 but relatively weak production. That is really stretching it.
- Pominville doesn't count, he went to the AHL while still junior eligible and would have been an NHLer during the lockout almost certainly.
- Laich was almost certainly in the AHL in 2005 only because of the lockout.
- Boyes was definitely in the AHL a 2nd year because of the lockout.
Regardless of whether you agree, now remember that this is just the list of those who met that criteria (two full seasons at the AHL level after junior age) and still made it. There are countless players who met that criteria and didn't make it.
When I made a list of such players a few months back, Boyle was one of the guys.
The thing is, who cares? Are we really happy to have "the next Brian Boyle"?
Every team has a number of prospects that project to be mediocre NHL forwards; how does this put us ahead of any other team?
Having Colborne develop into a good 3rd liner like Boyle doesn't sound very appealing if you think of it that way.
The real benefit of developing your own Colborne instead of filling that need via UFA is your chances of getting that player at a cheaper rate.
The Rangers having Boyle inked to a 1.7 per million year deal allowed the Rangers cap space to go out and get someone like Brad Richards.
The Leafs having someone like Colborne instead of overpaying for a player with UFA rights might allow us to offer someone like Getzlaf or Perry or Weber that extra million or million and a half.
Having Colborne develop into a good 3rd liner like Boyle doesn't sound very appealing if you think of it that way.
The real benefit of developing your own Colborne instead of filling that need via UFA is your chances of getting that player at a cheaper rate.
The Rangers having Boyle inked to a 1.7 per million year deal allowed the Rangers cap space to go out and get someone like Brad Richards.
The Leafs having someone like Colborne instead of overpaying for a player with UFA rights might allow us to offer someone like Getzlaf or Perry or Weber that extra million or million and a half.
Yeah, the more NHL-caliber players you can draft and develip yourself, the better. Even if they are mediocre. There's value for the dollar in doing it. Ultimately though, if you're not developing at least a couple of players worth getting excited about, you're not putting yourself ahead of all the other teams that are also developing a handful of average NHLers.
If you ask me I kinda like Kadri's and Frattin's respective upside's more than his. He can be good, I just don't see him putting it together.
What his ceiling is IMO: a 25 / 40 big decent 1st line center, or awesome 2nd line center.
What I think will happen is that he will spend another year on the marlies, show he is nothing spectacular offensively or defensively and come up to the leafs as a 3rd/4th line C.
Yeah, the more NHL-caliber players you can draft and develip yourself, the better. Even if they are mediocre. There's value for the dollar in doing it. Ultimately though, if you're not developing at least a couple of players worth getting excited about, you're not putting yourself ahead of all the other teams that are also developing a handful of average NHLers.
If you can produce more of these types that fit between #6-9 on your forward depth chart or #4/5 dmen than it opens up a lot of trade options.
Just like how LA were able to trade Simmonds and Johnson in the Richards/Carter deals cause of the development of some depth forwards and Voynov.
Maybe Colborne is directly used in a package for another impactful player. Or maybe it's just his development that allows Burke to trade a Kulemin or Frattin or Kadri without feeling their loss as much.
Colborne on his own though isn't a prospect to get excited about. The only prospects we have worth truly getting excited as game changer top of the lineup high end potential players are Rielly and Kadri.
Colborne on his own though isn't a prospect to get excited about. The only prospects we have worth truly getting excited as game changer top of the lineup high end potential players are Rielly and Kadri.
I agree. You must not be including Gardiner because he's a full time player now.
I was shocked to see Colborne as high as he was on the Hockey Prospectus list, and to not see Kadri on the top-75 in THN. I think they must have considered him a player instead of a prospect.
Still nothing wrong with a 6'5" 4th line Center who has a scoring touch. He better keep working on his faceoffs.
If you saw him in the AHL you should know this is NOT the case. He has changed it up a lot in the past season. Also he's not 6'5 apparently but grown a few inches more, he has more than enough to become an impact player he oozes talent, he isn't flashy as others but he can do it.
If you saw him in the AHL you should know this is NOT the case. He has changed it up a lot in the past season. Also he's not 6'5 apparently but grown a few inches more, he has more than enough to become an impact player he oozes talent, he isn't flashy as others but he can do it.
Yeah.
Anyway, to the guy saying that the comparable between Boyle and Colborne is accurate, lets just agree to disagree.
I explained it already, look past the numbers, playing style is different. Joe can be downright dominant at times, especially when it comes to creating plays.
He has well above average vision, and has hands soft enough to make the passes needed to utilize that vision. That alone is enough to seperate him from Boyle.
EDIT: People knock his skating SO MUCH, and I still dont see why. He is not that slow, and he is clearly lacking both leg and core strength, which reduces his top speed and balance. If you cant notice that lol, then you need to watch more marlie games
I agree. You must not be including Gardiner because he's a full time player now.
I was shocked to see Colborne as high as he was on the Hockey Prospectus list, and to not see Kadri on the top-75 in THN. I think they must have considered him a player instead of a prospect.
Kadri was in the NHL on one of his brief stints at the time of the writing of the Hockey News listing and therefore didn't make their list of top 75 prospects (non NHLers). It then made Colborne by default as Leafs highest rank prospect by those amateur scouts consolidated opinions.
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Anyway, to the guy saying that the comparable between Boyle and Colborne is accurate, lets just agree to disagree.
I explained it already, look past the numbers, playing style is different. Joe can be downright dominant at times, especially when it comes to creating plays.
He has well above average vision, and has hands soft enough to make the passes needed to utilize that vision. That alone is enough to seperate him from Boyle.
EDIT: People knock his skating SO MUCH, and I still dont see why. He is not that slow, and he is clearly lacking both leg and core strength, which reduces his top speed and balance. If you cant notice that lol, then you need to watch more marlie games
Who would you compare him to?
Boyle also had good hands at the NCAA and AHL level like Colborne. Just not at the NHL level or at least consistently.
Kadri was in the NHL on one of his brief stints at the time of the writing of the Hockey News listing and therefore didn't make their list of top 75 prospects (non NHLers). It then made Colborne by default as Leafs highest rank prospect by those amateur scouts consolidated opinions.
How do you feel about Colborne Mess? You've been so high on him in the past. How do you feel now?
Hopefully in the next 2 years takes Grabo's spot as 2nd C, I think he has a good shot. He's already defensively responsible under Eakins tutelage, which will make him a Carlyle favorite. He just needs to be more consistent in all areas of his game, it will come.
