Voracek scored 8 less points than Ryan last season. And people want to deal him, read, gus, and a first for ryan? If Voracek played with Giroux last season he would've had more points. I would love to have Ryan on this team, he would be a great fit, but lets not get crazy with trade proposals of a guy who wants out.
Wow, jake in a year where he scored 1 less than his career high for full seasons, had 8 less points than Bobby Ryan in his career low for full seasons. He must be just as good as Bobby Ryan.
I think it was pretty evident that Ryan had a down year last year and didn't play anywhere near his potential or even his norm.
For the most part it seems that the people who are wanting to keep Voracek want to do so because the rumors of Jake, Read,++ seems to be way too much. The difference in value between Jake and Ryan is not Read plus pick and a prospect. Its probably more like Jake plus pick and mid round prospect.
But, again from the report we had seen, Ryan wasn't very happy to be on the trading block and Anaheim's GM hasn't come out and said that he is not being traded. This would lead most to believe that the Ducks have lost some leverage that they may have had in the trade negotiations.
Personally, I would be willing to give up a good amount of futures if the only roster player we had to lose in the trade was Read. In reality Read +++ would not be bad for the Ducks, it probably just doesn't help them as much this year as they would like.
Wow, jake in a year where he scored 1 less than his career high for full seasons, had 8 less points than Bobby Ryan in his career low for full seasons. He must be just as good as Bobby Ryan.
I think it was pretty evident that Ryan had a down year last year and didn't play anywhere near his potential or even his norm.
Player A 5,100,000
GP G A P
64 31 26 57
81 35 29 64
82 34 37 71
82 31 26 57
Player B 7,800,000
80 41 16 57
54 31 23 54
75 27 30 57
80 38 31 69
Player C 2,250,000
80 09 29 38
81 16 34 50
80 14 32 46
78 18 31 49
Wow, jake in a year where he scored 1 less than his career high for full seasons, had 8 less points than Bobby Ryan in his career low for full seasons. He must be just as good as Bobby Ryan.
I think it was pretty evident that Ryan had a down year last year and didn't play anywhere near his potential or even his norm.
One of them played in Columbus and shuffled between third and second lines. One of them played with Perry and Getzlaf his whole career. A direct comparison of points is not really that useful. Last year was probably the most similar their quality of linemates and minutes has ever been, and their point totals are pretty similar.
Add 15 points, less speed, less two way play and double the cap hit is better? Not only that, one has played on a floundering team for most of his career while the other plays on a team that was a year removed from a stanley cup when he was a rookie. Take out Voracek's rookie year, which is typical for most rookies and they are even more comparable. Besides you act like Ryan had a down year I say he had a typical year for Bobby Ryan, he got 1st line PP time and played with Getz and Perry through most of his time in that 71 point year, when Perry won the Richard.
I'm not gonna be happy if Voracek goes the other way for Ryan, especially if there's more. They've been in the league the same amount of time and Ryan's got two years on him. Throw in Jake's attitude and his two-way capability. Explain to me why we'd obviously want Ryan over Jake?
Simmonds 28G, 21A for 49 points.
Ryan 31G, 26A for 57 points.
Ryan fits better on top line RW with Giroux. Simmonds would be a good fit on the Perry-Getzlaf line I think (We have Hartnell playing the role). Simmonds would be missed on the PP.
Add 15 points, less speed, less two way play and double the cap hit is better? Not only that, one has played on a floundering team for most of his career while the other plays on a team that was a year removed from a stanley cup when he was a rookie. Take out Voracek's rookie year, which is typical for most rookies and they are even more comparable. Besides you act like Ryan had a down year I say he had a typical year for Bobby Ryan, he got 1st line PP time and played with Getz and Perry through most of his time in that 71 point year, when Perry won the Richard.
Let me start by saying that I personally think Voracek, Read, Bourdon, + sits on the border between overpayment and significant overpayment depending on the +. That said, it's pretty clear to me that Bobby Ryan would be at least a modest to decently sized upgrade and there are some serious defensive misconceptions here about Ryan (and Voracek) for that matter.
First, defense.... here are the Corsi Rel QoC which control for quality of the competition you face and compare you against your peers.
If you can look at those stats and honestly tell me that Voracek is the better overall two-way player, you're simply out of your mind. In fact, even if you backtrack Ryan's stats back 2 years when they were similarly aged, the difference between them really isn't that big and the difference would not measure as being statistically significant by any statistician.
At the end of the day, CBJ... a terrible team... never saw Voracek as a premiere PKer. Lavi saw him as potential second PK option when guys were hurt. Ryan has been viewed by the Ducks as a solid second PK option for two seasons. Neither player's strength is defense, although both players sit comfortably in that average to above average range.
Let me start by saying that I personally think Voracek, Read, Bourdon, + sits on the border between overpayment and significant overpayment depending on the +. That said, it's pretty clear to me that Bobby Ryan would be at least a modest to decently sized upgrade and there are some serious defensive misconceptions here about Ryan (and Voracek) for that matter.
First, defense.... here are the Corsi Rel QoC which control for quality of the competition you face and compare you against your peers.
If you can look at those stats and honestly tell me that Voracek is the better overall two-way player, you're simply out of your mind. In fact, even if you backtrack Ryan's stats back 2 years when they were similarly aged, the difference between them really isn't that big and the difference would not measure as being statistically significant by any statistician.
At the end of the day, CBJ... a terrible team... never saw Voracek as a premiere PKer. Lavi saw him as potential second PK option when guys were hurt. Ryan has been viewed by the Ducks as a solid second PK option for two seasons. Neither player's strength is defense, although both players sit comfortably in that average to above average range.
What I have a tough time gathering from your post is even after showing that Voracek and Ryan are similar defensively, you state that Voracek, Read, Bourdon + is bordering overpayment.
So coming from the Flyers we have...
- a player who scored 8 less points than Ryan and similar defensively.
- a player who scored 10 less points than Ryan, a top 4 pker, and an extremely low cap hit of 900k for another two years.
- a young dman who showed he can fill in as the 5-6th spot if necessary
**I figure I should add that Bourdon as a part of this deal is a moot point. Im more concerned about giving both Read and Voracek up
- plus _________
I really fail to comprehend how anyone (I'm not just singling out you) can not see that deal as beyond overpayment. It boggles my mind.
I am willing to part with Voracek and Read at most..not add a pick although I'm sure one would be included. We do need a more established scorer but I do feel that when all is said and done we will have overpaid for Ryan but hopefully not by much. Voracek is going to be a very good player but he's at most a 20 goal scorer while Ryan is an established 30 goals scorer or possibly more. Read is also a 20-25 goal scorer but has so many intangibles...can be moved around and still be productive plus he is massively cap friendly. Anaheim should be happy if they just get Read and Voracek and really happy if a pick comes their way which again I don't doubt would....which I wouldn't be happy about at all.
LOL. You overrate Bobby Ryan like nobody else on this board.
If Bobby Ryan was a stud defensively and played on the top PK unit then i would justify him coming over for Voracek and Read +
Getting Bobby Ryan makes this team weaker overall. While our goal scoring prowess goes up we get weaker in other areas.
No I do not over rate Ryan. There is much more over rating of voracek going on than over rating of Ryan.
From just watching the 2 players play, Ryan is the better and more dynamic player IMO. He's got better numbers, yes, but I'm not looking at them and solely basing y opinion around them. I actually watch a lot of hockey. I watch a lot of ducks games on center ice because Ryan is probably my favorite player that's not a flyer.
People act like Ryan is some chicken with his head cut off on D. He's really not (dont even bother with that pointless Corsi drivel). Jake is better, yes, but Ryan is really not some moron defensively.
I really don't know how someone can watch bobby Ryan play and then watch voracek play, and not determine that Ryan is the more talented player. I like jake a lot, I think he's a good hardworking kid with a good skillset. I just think Ryan is better. He's a better goal scorer and he'd be an ideal linemate for G. I really don't think you could say the same for Jake. I don't see his game meshing with G's, even though most people on here have just assumed put him on the top line and think he and g will work great together.
I am curious why these rumors are out there. What does your team need with Ryan? Was it just because he specifically said he wanted to be a Flyer, or do you think there is genuine interest on the Flyers side?
He is a good player but the parts going back would not be worth it at all IMO. I wouldn't even do B. Schenn for him straight up. I think he has more potential and is cheaper. Ryan will get a big raise in a few years and honestly, I don't care for his attitude.
Also, your team has a ton of offense, shouldn't you be using those assets to improve the D aspect? Flyers were #2 in GF and #20 in GA. I think your scoring is just fine.
No I do not over rate Ryan. There is much more over rating of voracek going on than over rating of Ryan.
From just watching the 2 players play, Ryan is the better and more dynamic player IMO. He's got better numbers, yes, but I'm not looking at them and solely basing y opinion around them. I actually watch a lot of hockey. I watch a lot of ducks games on center ice because Ryan is probably my favorite player that's not a flyer.
People act like Ryan is some chicken with his head cut off on D. He's really not (dont even bother with that pointless Corsi drivel). Jake is better, yes, but Ryan is really not some moron defensively.
I really don't know how someone can watch bobby Ryan play and then watch voracek play, and not determine that Ryan is the more talented player. I like jake a lot, I think he's a good hardworking kid with a good skillset. I just think Ryan is better. He's a better goal scorer and he'd be an ideal linemate for G. I really don't think you could say the same for Jake. I don't see his game meshing with G's, even though most people on here have just assumed put him on the top line and think he and g will work great together.
What people like you don't seem to understand we are giving up MULTIPLE roster players for one winger.
If it was a package of Voracek + Prospects/Picks i would love the trade. But Voracek+Read+Bourdon/or prospects is too much. Who are you going to replace with the versatility of Matt Read? Read can chip in offensively and play in a defensive role. Him and Couts were fantastic on the PK. Plus his contract is nice and cheap. In the grand scheme of things the team just gets weaker if they trade a a couple of roster players for Ryan. We get weaker on the wings by trading two of them just to get Giroux a linemate. Giroux can play with Hartnell and Voracek. Voracek is essentially the same puck possession type of player as Jagr. The difference is Jagr has a better shot and is stronger while Voracek has a better two ability and speed.
I am curious why these rumors are out there. What does your team need with Ryan? Was it just because he specifically said he wanted to be a Flyer, or do you think there is genuine interest on the Flyers side?
He is a good player but the parts going back would not be worth it at all IMO. I wouldn't even do B. Schenn for him straight up. I think he has more potential and is cheaper. Ryan will get a big raise in a few years and honestly, I don't care for his attitude.
Also, your team has a ton of offense, shouldn't you be using those assets to improve the D aspect? Flyers were #2 in GF and #20 in GA. I think your scoring is just fine.
I am curious why these rumors are out there. What does your team need with Ryan? Was it just because he specifically said he wanted to be a Flyer, or do you think there is genuine interest on the Flyers side?
He is a good player but the parts going back would not be worth it at all IMO. I wouldn't even do B. Schenn for him straight up. I think he has more potential and is cheaper. Ryan will get a big raise in a few years and honestly, I don't care for his attitude.
Also, your team has a ton of offense, shouldn't you be using those assets to improve the D aspect? Flyers were #2 in GF and #20 in GA. I think your scoring is just fine.
Just wanted to get your input.
Ryan pretty much grew up around the organization. He is a flyers fan and his parents are real good friends of Bob Clarke. They have been high on him for years. Flyers brass really wants him but i hope they are smart enough to realize the asking price will gut the team.
Ryan pretty much grew up around the organization. He is a flyers fan and his parents are real good friends of Bob Clarke. They have been high on him for years. Flyers brass really wants him but i hope they are smart enough to realize the asking price will gut the team.
Got it. So if he came to the Flyers his attitude would probably improve. Not saying they shouldn't get him, but they shouldn't overpay. Especially since it is ANA that has little leverage at this point.
What if they deal Voracek and Read in a package for Ryan, but also sign someone like Doan? Would you rather have Voracek and Read than Ryan and Doan?
I think most would take Ryan and Doan, however there's a remote chance of that happening. Trading Voracek and Read for Ryan leaves us with little depth on the wings. That would mean that we would have lost JVR, Jagr, Voracek, and Read only for them to be replaced with Ryan and Fedotenko.
I think most would take Ryan and Doan, however there's a remote chance of that happening. Trading Voracek and Read for Ryan leaves us with little depth on the wings. That would mean that we would have lost JVR, Jagr, Voracek, and Read only for them to be replaced with Ryan and Fedotenko.
I think ryan has 3 more years on his deal, means he'll be 28. The kids on the flyers should be studs by then. The flyers will have went all in on a No1 D. If our goaltending doesn't suck, we should be the team to beat.... in 4 years anyway.
