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Old
07-13-2012, 09:10 AM
  #26
spcastlemagic
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It's a pre-dominantly black neighborhood that was intentionally destroyed with the construction of the Civic Arena (tens of thousands of people and hundreds of businesses were displaced) and other Downtown-led disasters of urban planning - a common theme in the decline of some of Pittsburgh's other previously most vibrant neighborhoods, such as East Liberty.

It's one of the few places in the city poorer people can still get by. The hill has huge transportation problems, so using arena parking revenues to alleviate that could mean a lot for people who live there for getting jobs in other parts of the city.

What this group itself has to say is:

Quote:
In the 1950s and early 1960s, much of the Lower Hill District was demolished to make way for a planned cultural district for more affluent Pittsburghers. 1,300 buildings on 95 acres of land were demolished. 413 businesses and over 8,000 residents were forced to relocate, receiving little to no compensation. The Hill District lost its commercial core, much of its population, and its connection to downtown. It was left isolated, disconnected from job opportunities, and starved for capital investment.

The Hill District now has a rare opportunity to correct this legacy. A 28-acre portion of the Lower Hill will soon
become available for development. The Management Committee has adopted the following strategies to govern development activities in the Lower Hill, in order to ensure that the Lower Hill is developed in a way that reintegrates the area into the cultural fabric of the community, provides housing and job opportunities for Hill District residents, and serves as a catalyst for market-driven investment throughout the neighborhood.
The city got it wrong in the 50's and 60's, and this group of residents wants to make sure the re-development goes right, and isn't simply another go at gentrification. I don't see how you can blame them. If the construction of the old Civic Arena cut them off from the city, this is a chance at being reintegrated, both physically and economically.

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07-13-2012, 09:12 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
It's a pre-dominantly black neighborhood that was intentionally destroyed with the construction of the Civic Arena (tens of thousands of people and hundreds of businesses were displaced) and other Downtown-led disasters of urban planning - a common theme in the decline of some of Pittsburgh's other previously most vibrant neighborhoods, such as East Liberty.

It's one of the few places in the city poorer people can still get by. The hill has huge transportation problems, so using arena parking revenues to alleviate that could mean a lot for people who live there for getting jobs in other parts of the city.

What this group itself has to say is:



The city got it wrong in the 50's and 60's, and this group of residents wants to make sure the re-development goes right, and isn't simply another go at gentrification. I don't see how you can blame them. If the construction of the old Civic Arena cut them off from the city, this is a chance at being reintegrated, both physically and economically.
its the way they are going about it that bothers me. Set up meetings and talk to people in private, don't publicly call them out to make them look like the bad guy if they don't do it. Why was Sidney Crosby's name even mentioned?

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07-13-2012, 09:39 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
It's a pre-dominantly black neighborhood that was intentionally destroyed with the construction of the Civic Arena (tens of thousands of people and hundreds of businesses were displaced) and other Downtown-led disasters of urban planning - a common theme in the decline of some of Pittsburgh's other previously most vibrant neighborhoods, such as East Liberty.

It's one of the few places in the city poorer people can still get by. The hill has huge transportation problems, so using arena parking revenues to alleviate that could mean a lot for people who live there for getting jobs in other parts of the city.

What this group itself has to say is:



The city got it wrong in the 50's and 60's, and this group of residents wants to make sure the re-development goes right, and isn't simply another go at gentrification. I don't see how you can blame them. If the construction of the old Civic Arena cut them off from the city, this is a chance at being reintegrated, both physically and economically.
Thanks for the history. That was really helpful. In general, that was my view but I didn't know those details. Hopefully, all parties involved can work this out in a civil manner.

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07-13-2012, 09:46 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
OK I'll bite: insensitive in what way?

Disclosure: I am not a resident of Pittsburgh and know this district only by the reputation it gets in this board, but seeing as how every big city has districts with this type of reputation I'm going from the principle that most of the problems share similar causes and require similar solutions.
These are some of the posts I thought were insensitive in one way or another. Mostly uniformed people making simplified statements about a complex issue.

Admittedly, I have a heart for the poor and want to see urban areas rebuilt without throwing the current inhabitants out. Saying things like "the hill district should be leveled" or "**** the hill district" or "whose idea was it to put the Consol in the Hood" is insensitive to me because we are talking about real people and real situations. The residents there, unfairly or not, feel that the Penguins and the city owe it to them to help rebuild their community. They want what's best for where they live. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Now we can discuss whether their demands are reasonable or if the manner in which they are going about it is appropriate. Those are the necessary discussions. I just don't find it helpful to generalize a whole community (especially one with a bad history with the city the last time a hockey arena was built).

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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
People from the hill demanding handouts?! Never! Shockingly, the "activists" have all this free time on their hands. Pittsburgh would be such a better place if the hill district was leveled. Young professionals should be living there, it could be such a great place with its proximity to downtown. I went to duquesne law school and had some run ins with locals. I have 0 sympathy for them.
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
There is a small tiling business across the road from my house.. I think I'll go ask them for a cut of their profits, just because, you know, I'm in proximity to them.
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Originally Posted by OnMyOwn View Post
**** the hill district...that is all.

One of the most useless areas of the city...the arena brings anything that's nice there anyway, and plenty of chances to sit and beg for money before and after events to boot.
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One more time, whose idea was it to put Consol in the Hood!

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07-13-2012, 09:51 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
These are some of the posts I thought were insensitive in one way or another. Mostly uniformed people making simplified statements about a complex issue.

Admittedly, I have a heart for the poor and want to see urban areas rebuilt without throwing the current inhabitants out. Saying things like "the hill district should be leveled" or "**** the hill district" or "whose idea was it to put the Consol in the Hood" is insensitive to me because we are talking about real people and real situations. The residents there, unfairly or not, feel that the Penguins and the city owe it to them to help rebuild their community. They want what's best for where they live. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Now we can discuss whether their demands are reasonable or if the manner in which they are going about it is appropriate. Those are the necessary discussions. I just don't find it helpful to generalize a whole community (especially one with a bad history with the city the last time a hockey arena was built).
To be fair this is a hockey board, and I am almost certain that this is the same group that blocked the casino that the Pens were associated with and almost drove the Pens to KC. Then shook the Pens down for money right after. Now they ate back again. I remain bitter, I suspect others do too. Maybe that made some comments go too far. But they bring it on themselves.

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07-13-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
If the construction of the old Civic Arena cut them off from the city, this is a chance at being reintegrated, both physically and economically.
I wasn't around in the 50s, so forgive me the historical ignorance of this question. How is it that Wylie Avenue being cut off by the construction of the Civic Arena isolated the Hill residents from downtown? Today, Bedford Avenue and Centre Avenue are both major arteries into downtown which run parallel to Wylie Avenue and take you to directly to the heart of downtown. Centre Avenue in particular has public transit stops all along it which deposit you in the middle of the downtown area.

If residents are upset about the displacement of those who lived or worked where the arena site was created, then I understand that completely. Still, that happened 60 years ago. But it's not as though cutting off one avenue made it impossible for residents to travel downtown. There are countless ways for someone to get to downtown from there. It may have inconvenienced people, but it's certainly not anywhere near the issue that the relocation of those residents was. Also, a huge part of the reason for the Hill's decline was the riots that occurred for over a week after Martin Luther King Jr was shot in 1968 that resulted in an enormous amount of property damage in that neighborhood. It was a tragedy that he was killed, but burning down the neighborhood in which you live solves nothing.

Here is a view of the Hill District from downtown, for people that don't live here. The Civic Arena is in the lower left, and the Hill District is just beyond it in the upper left. Bedford Avenue runs along the left side of the Hill and past the left side of the arena. Centre Avenue runs along the right side of the Hill, and past the right side of the arena. Wylie Avenue is the one that runs parallel to those, through the center of the Hill, with a bend in it shortly before it comes to a stop in the middle of the arena site.


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07-13-2012, 10:06 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
To be fair this is a hockey board, and I am almost certain that this is the same group that blocked the casino that the Pens were associated with and almost drove the Pens to KC. Then shook the Pens down for money right after. Now they ate back again. I remain bitter, I suspect others do too. Maybe that made some comments go too far. But they bring it on themselves.
Yeah, like I said, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject. I just made a statement that some comments were insensitive. I was asked which ones so I responded. I suppose I can't blame passionate hockey fans for responding bitterly towards a community they know little about.

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07-13-2012, 11:11 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Yeah, like I said, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject. I just made a statement that some comments were insensitive. I was asked which ones so I responded. I suppose I can't blame passionate hockey fans for responding bitterly towards a community they know little about.
I for one know the basics. That in the 50's/60's the hill, along with virtually every community, had misguided central planning notions which tore apart communities and businesses that had been there for generations. Often with vary bad results. My birthplace of McKeesport 'revitalized' its downtown seizing property and spending huge amounts for what is today a ghost town and tribute to waste. On the north side the landmark cental marketplace, which would be an unbelievable legacy today was torn down to put an indoor mall in where no one wanted one, Allegheny Center, which stands vacant today. Not that I am against progress, it is fundemental and necessary. But so much back then was done wrong and we have ghostly structures all over which are empty and cost billions upon hudreds of billions to show how wrong it was done everywhere during this very period. To single out this one project misses the forest for staring at one tree.

But worse, I sense that there is a racial overtone to the bolded part, an accusation. What 'community you know little about' are you referring to? When I said bitter it was solely about a group that almost drove the Pens from Pittsburgh. The group happens to represent minority interests, and protested the casino group associated with keeping the Pens here, and for the set aside for one minority owned casino which ended up getting the deal that almost drove the Pens to KC. I would be bitter about that group if white bread Mitt Romney owned the group that did that. It has nothing to do with 'understanding' that group or not. I suspect for many it is the same. Then they immediately after the Pens got the funding pressured the Pens for jobs, money, if I remember even a supermarket. And got most of it. Now they are back.

I resent them not because of 'who' they are, but because 'what' they are, which is a bunch of *******s. And *******s who almost cost me my team. I can not speak for anyone else but suspect that many on a Pens hockey board feel similarly.

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07-13-2012, 11:16 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by johnniewalker View Post
I wasn't around in the 50s, so forgive me the historical ignorance of this question. How is it that Wylie Avenue being cut off by the construction of the Civic Arena isolated the Hill residents from downtown? Today, Bedford Avenue and Centre Avenue are both major arteries into downtown which run parallel to Wylie Avenue and take you to directly to the heart of downtown. Centre Avenue in particular has public transit stops all along it which deposit you in the middle of the downtown area.

If residents are upset about the displacement of those who lived or worked where the arena site was created, then I understand that completely. Still, that happened 60 years ago. But it's not as though cutting off one avenue made it impossible for residents to travel downtown. There are countless ways for someone to get to downtown from there. It may have inconvenienced people, but it's certainly not anywhere near the issue that the relocation of those residents was. Also, a huge part of the reason for the Hill's decline was the riots that occurred for over a week after Martin Luther King Jr was shot in 1968 that resulted in an enormous amount of property damage in that neighborhood. It was a tragedy that he was killed, but burning down the neighborhood in which you live solves nothing.

Here is a view of the Hill District from downtown, for people that don't live here. The Civic Arena is in the lower left, and the Hill District is just beyond it in the upper left. Bedford Avenue runs along the left side of the Hill and past the left side of the arena. Centre Avenue runs along the right side of the Hill, and past the right side of the arena. Wylie Avenue is the one that runs parallel to those, through the center of the Hill, with a bend in it shortly before it comes to a stop in the middle of the arena site.

If cut a straight shot from the rest of the hill right into the heart of downtown right off, making you need to go way around the arena. Add to it some of the most vibrant parts of the community were there. The jazz clubs of the 20's through the 40's and even 50's, and on and on. Think the southside of its day, cutting edge, and very vibrant. It was like cutting the heart out of that community both culturally, in business, and also in access to downtown. It killed everything below it.

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07-13-2012, 11:30 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
If cut a straight shot from the rest of the hill right into the heart of downtown right off, making you need to go way around the arena. Add to it some of the most vibrant parts of the community were there. The jazz clubs of the 20's through the 40's and even 50's, and on and on. Think the southside of its day, cutting edge, and very vibrant. It was like cutting the heart out of that community both culturally, in business, and also in access to downtown. It killed everything below it.
Like I said, I totally agree in terms of the displaced people and businesses. I agree in terms of the feeling of isolation or segregation that probably resulted. I agree about the loss of an identity as a neighborhood that thrived on its small businesses and music scene.

I don't agree that it was geographically isolated. I don't see having to go one block over before going towards downtown as being geographically isolated from downtown. Maybe it was a little more tedious to walk there, but that piece of it I do not get.

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07-13-2012, 11:32 AM
  #36
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Johnniewalker, some good points - this isn't my area of expertise, so my thoughts are a little scattershot. The way I see it, the Hill and Uptown have gotten the worst of top-down management over the last few decades (the URA tearing down 8000 houses "for cultural renewal" and... building a hockey arena and a parking lot. Being bifurcated by Bigelow Ave and 376 to the south.) It wasn't a poor neighborhood - it is a neighborhood that had poverty put on it. We've also seen poor leadership on the Hill side on any range of issues - the grocery store saga of the last few years has been a mess. You have the big three factors of urban isolation - poverty, topography, and poor design - combined with an either hostile or incompetent set of government and community leaders. The Hill has languished for a long time, but that doesn't mean the people that live their today shouldn't keep fighting for the renewal of their community, 60 years after the fact or not.

The Penguins, that entity worth hundreds of millions of dollars, don't exist without that legacy. With the Civic Arena being demolished, they have the opportunity, and the obligation, to work with the community to reintegrate the Hill from the bottom up. I really hope the new development is thoughtful, and reintegrates the hill appropriately. That's all.

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07-13-2012, 11:50 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
Johnniewalker, some good points - this isn't my area of expertise, so my thoughts are a little scattershot. The way I see it, the Hill and Uptown have gotten the worst of top-down management over the last few decades (the URA tearing down 8000 houses "for cultural renewal" and... building a hockey arena and a parking lot. Being bifurcated by Bigelow Ave and 376 to the south.) It wasn't a poor neighborhood - it is a neighborhood that had poverty put on it. We've also seen poor leadership on the Hill side on any range of issues - the grocery store saga of the last few years has been a mess. You have the big three factors of urban isolation - poverty, topography, and poor design - combined with an either hostile or incompetent set of government and community leaders. The Hill has languished for a long time, but that doesn't mean the people that live their today shouldn't keep fighting for the renewal of their community, 60 years after the fact or not.

The Penguins, that entity worth hundreds of millions of dollars, don't exist without that legacy. With the Civic Arena being demolished, they have the opportunity, and the obligation, to work with the community to reintegrate the Hill from the bottom up. I really hope the new development is thoughtful, and reintegrates the hill appropriately. That's all.
Please.

This is what I am talking about. The Pens already have done what you ask and beyond. And this group is still coming back. The Pens when the arena was being built agreed to a 'community benefits program' which gaves tens upon tens upon tens of millions to that group; built a supermarket that they demanded, and 'as part of the community benefits agreement, the Penguins committed to giving qualified Hill residents first consideration for jobs at the Consol Energy Center before opening the positions to other applicants.'

http://blog.employmentguide.com/posts/view/4901414

Almost half of the jobs at the new hotel went to hill residents. How far do you expect the Pens to go?

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07-13-2012, 11:53 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
The Penguins, that entity worth hundreds of millions of dollars, don't exist without that legacy. With the Civic Arena being demolished, they have the opportunity, and the obligation, to work with the community to reintegrate the Hill from the bottom up. I really hope the new development is thoughtful, and reintegrates the hill appropriately. That's all.
Though I disagree with the assertion that the Penguins hockey franchise itself owes anything to the residents of the Hill, and that the franchise would not exist without that legacy, I agree with your overall sentiment that the redevelopment of that site should consider the residents of that neighborhood where possible.

The Penguins hockey franchise would have been successful regardless of where in the city their arena had been located. They were the benefactors of an arena that was constructed in such a poor fashion that it did not suit the tenant for which it was intended. That is not their fault. It was the fault of the URA, the city government, and to a lesser extent the CLO.

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07-13-2012, 11:55 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I for one know the basics. That in the 50's/60's the hill, along with virtually every community, had misguided central planning notions which tore apart communities and businesses that had been there for generations. Often with vary bad results. My birthplace of McKeesport 'revitalized' its downtown seizing property and spending huge amounts for what is today a ghost town and tribute to waste. On the north side the landmark cental marketplace, which would be an unbelievable legacy today was torn down to put an indoor mall in where no one wanted one, Allegheny Center, which stands vacant today. Not that I am against progress, it is fundemental and necessary. But so much back then was done wrong and we have ghostly structures all over which are empty and cost billions upon hudreds of billions to show how wrong it was done everywhere during this very period. To single out this one project misses the forest for staring at one tree.

But worse, I sense that there is a racial overtone to the bolded part, an accusation. What 'community you know little about' are you referring to? When I said bitter it was solely about a group that almost drove the Pens from Pittsburgh. The group happens to represent minority interests, and protested the casino group associated with keeping the Pens here, and for the set aside for one minority owned casino which ended up getting the deal that almost drove the Pens to KC. I would be bitter about that group if white bread Mitt Romney owned the group that did that. It has nothing to do with 'understanding' that group or not. I suspect for many it is the same. Then they immediately after the Pens got the funding pressured the Pens for jobs, money, if I remember even a supermarket. And got most of it. Now they are back.

I resent them not because of 'who' they are, but because 'what' they are, which is a bunch of *******s. And *******s who almost cost me my team. I can not speak for anyone else but suspect that many on a Pens hockey board feel similarly.
I didn't point out any of your posts as insensitive, nor was I insinuating anything about race when I said community. The reference to community is to the people that live in the Hill District. They could be white, black, green, purple, whatever and it wouldn't change the subject from my perspective. You brought some knowledge to the table (more than I possess on the subject) and provided reasons for your "bitterness".

It was the other comments I was referring to where nothing constructive was brought to the conversation. Either way, it's not a big deal. All I said were that some comments were insensitive which I stand by. Everyone is free to have their opinions on the matter.

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07-13-2012, 12:15 PM
  #40
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I didn't point out any of your posts as insensitive, nor was I insinuating anything about race when I said community. The reference to community is to the people that live in the Hill District. They could be white, black, green, purple, whatever and it wouldn't change the subject from my perspective. You brought some knowledge to the table (more than I possess on the subject) and provided reasons for your "bitterness".

It was the other comments I was referring to where nothing constructive was brought to the conversation. Either way, it's not a big deal. All I said were that some comments were insensitive which I stand by. Everyone is free to have their opinions on the matter.
No problem. I am not mad at you, just at the group behind this.

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07-13-2012, 12:16 PM
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Please.

This is what I am talking about. The Pens already have done what you ask and beyond. And this group is still coming back. The Pens when the arena was being built agreed to a 'community benefits program' which gaves tens upon tens upon tens of millions to that group; built a supermarket that they demanded, and 'as part of the community benefits agreement, the Penguins committed to giving qualified Hill residents first consideration for jobs at the Consol Energy Center before opening the positions to other applicants.'

http://blog.employmentguide.com/posts/view/4901414

Almost half of the jobs at the new hotel went to hill residents. How far do you expect the Pens to go?
The Penguins haven't given "tens upon tens upon tens" of millions to any group, though they have agreed for a few million to go to various projects - the aforementioned grocery store, and a youth centered included.

The biggest, most important component of all of this remains the development of the lower hill. That's the root issue here. I don't see how the Penguins have already "done everything and beyond" when the biggest, most central piece, is still nebulous. The CBA is signed, and it has the support of the interested parties, but neighborhood groups should keep up the pressure on the Penguins (who have a history of reneging on promises regarding lower hill development) as much as possible. CBA's falter. Political pressure can get things done.

The specific funding initiative that started this thread? I'm ambivalent. The idea of "ugh these people should shut up" is what I have a problem with.

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07-13-2012, 12:25 PM
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The Penguins haven't given "tens upon tens upon tens" of millions to any group, though they have agreed for a few million to go to various projects - the aforementioned grocery store, and a youth centered included.

The biggest, most important component of all of this remains the development of the lower hill. That's the root issue here. I don't see how the Penguins have already "done everything and beyond" when the biggest, most central piece, is still nebulous. The CBA is signed, and it has the support of the interested parties, but neighborhood groups should keep up the pressure on the Penguins (who have a history of reneging on promises regarding lower hill development) as much as possible. CBA's falter. Political pressure can get things done.

The specific funding initiative that started this thread? I'm ambivalent. The idea of "ugh these people should shut up" is what I have a problem with.
Explain why the Pens should be responsible for correcting all the woes of the hill? Pressure the city, state, whoever you want to.

But I agree with Jacob, Westinghouse has a huge facility across the street from my office, there is a huge mall a couple blocks away. Both seem to be doing well. Better than me anyways. They should start sending me money because they can afford to. I may call a press conference.

And count me in the 'Ugh, shut the **** up already party'. As I said it is not like the Pens have blown them off, but there is a limit as to what you can expect them to do. I do not see how any reasonable person can look at that agreement already in place, including first emplyment opportunity, and a LOT of the jobs have gone to people from the hill. And almost 50% of the jobs at the new hotel are minority hires. The Pens have been doing their part. At some point, yeah shut the **** up and do not keep showing up every couple of years for more if the Pens are continuing to do what they agreed to. Go to the Mayor, Governor, whoever like everyone else does.

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07-13-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quite simply, pressure the Penguins because the Penguins have the development rights.

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07-13-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quite simply, pressure the Penguins because the Penguins have the development rights.
How would you feel if the community you had a business in wanted you to stay instead of taking your business, which employed a thousand workers, from Pittsburgh to KC.

You employed many of the people neighboring the plant.

KC offered you a better deal to come. But to keep your business here, and not insignificantly the jobs and tax revenues that pay for the things your neighbors count on, the city and state gave you consessions, including a sweetheart deal to develope some neighboring publically owned property. And by doing so pay taxes into the city and state which those communities will use for things the communuty needs. You also agreed as part of the deal to some neighborhood improvements and to give first hire priority to the neighborhood. In fact a signifcant portion of your hiring is from that community as agreed upon. You were pretty generous in your terms and you have followed through on all the promises negotiated by the parties.

Then two years late the neighborhood shows up saying you should renegotiate the deal and hand them specifically of all the parties involved more money.

Honestly, how people can support this kind of action without being ashamed is beyond me. And if the Pens actually did give more every couple of years they will show up again witht heir hands out. Because that is just how these groups do business. And no wonder people are fleeing states like ours where this is the norm for more rationale states who know how to treat businesses.

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07-13-2012, 01:08 PM
  #45
Shady Machine
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How would you feel if the community you had a business in wanted you to stay instead of taking your business, which employed a thousand workers, from Pittsburgh to KC.

You employed many of the people neighboring the plant.

KC offered you a better deal to come. But to keep your business here, and not insignificantly the jobs and tax revenues that pay for the things your neighbors count on, the city and state gave you consessions, including a sweetheart deal to develope some neighboring publically owned property. And by doing so pay taxes into the city and state which those communities will use for things the communuty needs. You also agreed as part of the deal to some neighborhood improvements and to give first hire priority to the neighborhood. In fact a signifcant portion of your hiring is from that community as agreed upon. You were pretty generous in your terms and you have followed through on all the promises negotiated by the parties.

Then two years late the neighborhood shows up saying you should renegotiate the deal and hand them specifically of all the parties involved more money.

Honestly, how people can support this kind of action without being ashamed is beyond me. And if the Pens actually did give more every couple of years they will show up again witht heir hands out. Because that is just how these groups do business. And no wonder people are fleeing states like ours where this is the norm for more rationale states who know how to treat businesses.
This is how what groups do business?

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07-13-2012, 01:12 PM
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It's a pre-dominantly black neighborhood that was intentionally destroyed with the construction of the Civic Arena (tens of thousands of people and hundreds of businesses were displaced) and other Downtown-led disasters of urban planning - a common theme in the decline of some of Pittsburgh's other previously most vibrant neighborhoods, such as East Liberty.

It's one of the few places in the city poorer people can still get by. The hill has huge transportation problems, so using arena parking revenues to alleviate that could mean a lot for people who live there for getting jobs in other parts of the city.

What this group itself has to say is:



The city got it wrong in the 50's and 60's, and this group of residents wants to make sure the re-development goes right, and isn't simply another go at gentrification. I don't see how you can blame them. If the construction of the old Civic Arena cut them off from the city, this is a chance at being reintegrated, both physically and economically.
Let me get this straight... the city built an arena for the Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera and the Penguins moved in several years later. Many people and businesses were displaced and a major (of 3) artery for the neighborhood to the city was cut off. Since then, the neighborhood has supposedly become more impoverished and less vibrant (it's implied that the construction of the Civic Arena was the primary force behind this devolution). 50 years later, residents are asking the Penguins for a piece of the revenue pie for "community redevelopment".

Am I missing anything?

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07-13-2012, 01:16 PM
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Let me get this straight... the city built an arena for the Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera and the Penguins moved in several years later. Many people and businesses were displaced and a major (of 3) artery for the neighborhood to the city was cut off. Since then, the neighborhood has supposedly become more impoverished and less vibrant (it's implied that the construction of the Civic Arena was the primary force behind this devolution). 50 years later, residents are asking the Penguins for a piece of the revenue pie for "community redevelopment".

Am I missing anything?
It hasn't supposedly become more impoverished and less vibrant. It HAS become significantly more impoverished and less vibrant. Of course, there has been some development more recently and hopefully is on the upswing.

Also, what's your point? Were you making one or just trying to get a summarized version of what happened?

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07-13-2012, 01:18 PM
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This is how what groups do business?
Community aggitators. There are legit community organizations that represent the interests of their community or even subsets of their communties. But there are also individuals and organizations who keep coming back and trying to embarrass businesses into going beyond a fair negotiation, and keep coming back over and over for what can only be described as a shake down or blackmail. You do this or we will give you bad press. We will be back for our handout again in a couple of years and every couple of years after. Some make a career of it. There is a difference and I draw a line between legit and even needed community organizations representing whatever spectrum on the political wheel and those who use unseemly tactics that make me disrespect them.

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07-13-2012, 01:22 PM
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Community aggitators. There are legit community organizations that represent the interests of their community or even subsets of their communties. But there are also individuals and organizations who keep coming back and trying to embarrass businesses into going beyond a fair negotiation, and keep coming back over and over for what can only be described as a shake down or blackmail. You do this or we will give you bad press. We will be back for our handout again in a couple of years and every couple of years after. Some make a career of it. There is a difference and I draw a line between legit and even needed community organizations representing whatever spectrum on the political wheel and those who use unseemly tactics that make me disrespect them.
Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. There are definitely corrupt people in all walks of life (government, non-profit, and business).

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07-13-2012, 01:26 PM
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Darth Vitale
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
It's a pre-dominantly black neighborhood that was intentionally destroyed with the construction of the Civic Arena (tens of thousands of people and hundreds of businesses were displaced) and other Downtown-led disasters of urban planning - a common theme in the decline of some of Pittsburgh's other previously most vibrant neighborhoods, such as East Liberty.

Hmmm. OK. Starting to get the big picture.


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These are some of the posts I thought were insensitive in one way or another. Mostly uniformed people making simplified statements about a complex issue.

Admittedly, I have a heart for the poor and want to see urban areas rebuilt without throwing the current inhabitants out. Saying things like "the hill district should be leveled" or "**** the hill district" or "whose idea was it to put the Consol in the Hood" is insensitive to me because we are talking about real people and real situations.
Respect points earned above and beyond hockey wisdom. Nothing wrong with caring about the poor. Jesus approves (I like to remind die-hard red-staters that Jesus would be a Democrat but that's another story ). PS - I'm not a Democrat, nor a tree hugging hippy. Although I am starting to dig Red Pandas and it scares me a little.


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Explain why the Pens should be responsible for correcting all the woes of the hill? Pressure the city, state, whoever you want to.

But I agree with Jacob, Westinghouse has a huge facility across the street from my office, there is a huge mall a couple blocks away. Both seem to be doing well. Better than me anyways. They should start sending me money because they can afford to. I may call a press conference.

And count me in the 'Ugh, shut the **** up already party'. As I said it is not like the Pens have blown them off, but there is a limit as to what you can expect them to do. I do not see how any reasonable person can look at that agreement already in place, including first emplyment opportunity, and a LOT of the jobs have gone to people from the hill. And almost 50% of the jobs at the new hotel are minority hires. The Pens have been doing their part. At some point, yeah shut the **** up and do not keep showing up every couple of years for more if the Pens are continuing to do what they agreed to. Go to the Mayor, Governor, whoever like everyone else does.

Possibly some "suspect accounting estimates" with the earlier "millions and millions" comment, but I think I have the big picture now.


Sounds like what often happens:

a) a neighborhood gets shafted during a boom period between the 50s and 70s... usually minority neighborhoods.
b) the neighborhood goes to **** over time, businesses leave, violent crime jumps, schools go in the toilet
c) cities try to "fix" the problem with heavy policing, which never works except in downtown areas like NYC
d) you end up with a class of people who are poor, surrounded by crime, and generally not prepared mentally or skills-wise to do the things that solve the problems they have as a community

Invariably you get some Al Sharpton types (how did this a-hole get a show on a cable news station - mind boggling), who think they're going to "save the community" by demanding programs and handouts in some cases. And when the communities get funding for a new park or a new whatever, those places almost always end up vacant because of corruption and mismanagement. When everyone sees it didn't work, they want more assistance, and the cycle repeats itself, rarely resulting in a big success.

There is some truth to both sides. If most of us grew up in **** neighborhoods like that with 1 parent, we most likely would be asking for handouts too, while had those people grown up in nicer places with 2 parents and better schools, etc.. they'd be making fun of us. The other side is that there ARE unquestionably a lot of people who see themselves as permanent victims and look only for handouts, don't work hard when they get a job opportunity, etc. The hard part is calling those people out without generalizing.

The bottom line: no city, state or federal government (or hockey team) will ever solve these problems because ultimately it's up to each new generation of parents not to **** their kids up. Hard to do when you've had no good examples an no one to teach you as you grew up. Until the parents in these places instill work ethic in their kids and pride and all the rest, all of these places will remain the same. New projects will go up with all the flare of modern urban planning and PR, and just as surely they'll be demolished 20 years later. Chicago has had several projects like this. It never works because the root of the problem is never addressed.

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