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Old
07-13-2012, 01:34 PM
  #51
Shady Machine
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Solid points Chi-Chi. It definitely starts with the family. I think we may have differing opinions with the responsibility of local businesses and government, but I can't argue with anything you said there.

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07-13-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Solid points Chi-Chi. It definitely starts with the family. I think we may have differing opinions with the responsibility of local businesses and government, but I can't argue with anything you said there.
I am not even sure if your positions and mine are that far off.

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07-13-2012, 02:06 PM
  #53
Shady Machine
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I am not even sure if your positions and mine are that far off.
Yeah I'm not sure either haha. That's why I've been trying to steer clear of making matter of fact statements about this situation since I don't know many of the details.

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07-13-2012, 02:30 PM
  #54
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Why should the pens pay to fix up their ****** houses?

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07-13-2012, 02:36 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lamar Latrell View Post
Let me get this straight... the city built an arena for the Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera and the Penguins moved in several years later. Many people and businesses were displaced and a major (of 3) artery for the neighborhood to the city was cut off. Since then, the neighborhood has supposedly become more impoverished and less vibrant (it's implied that the construction of the Civic Arena was the primary force behind this devolution). 50 years later, residents are asking the Penguins for a piece of the revenue pie for "community redevelopment".

Am I missing anything?
just thought I'd bold this part for emphasis and go one step further.

The Hornets played four seasons in the Civic Arena before the NHL announced that Pittsburgh was granted an NHL expansion franchise in early 1967, which put an end to the Hornets at the conclusion of the 1966-67 AHL season. The Penguins basically moved into an arena that had already been fitted with a rink.

So how does the demolition of the area around the Hill District tie to the Penguins again?

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07-13-2012, 02:41 PM
  #56
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They are by far the largest benefactor of those policies. Their franchise, and wealth, were built from the seeds of that demolition. That's the tie.

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07-13-2012, 02:44 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
They are by far the largest benefactor of those policies. Their franchise, and wealth, were built from the seeds of that demolition. That's the tie.
So if the city had, for instance, built the arena which they moved into after several other tenants already occupied it, on the north side over by the old three rivers stadium, or any one of a hundred other places, they would have failed?

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07-13-2012, 02:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
They are by far the largest benefactor of those policies. Their franchise, and wealth, were built from the seeds of that demolition. That's the tie.
Read all your posts on this topic. Spot on!

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07-13-2012, 02:49 PM
  #59
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Not weighing in on either side of the discussion, but will just point out that the Pens had nothing to do with the construction of the civic arena, as they were not the intended tenants. The Civic Light Opera, IIRC, were the first. It never worked for them as a viable venue. Penguins came later.

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Old
07-13-2012, 02:59 PM
  #60
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Where's the millions Barden pledged to help the hill in order to put his casino bid on par with IOC lol

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07-13-2012, 03:07 PM
  #61
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Pens are not responsible for anything. They didn't build the arena decide its location or decide to burn half the hill down after the mlk assassination.It bothers me how they asked. They're trying to smear the team a team they almost destroyed. I went to duquesne and work in the USX building trust me I have plenty of experience with that hell hole I park there everyday. It's a horrible neighborhood and something should be done BY THE CITY not the pens. And this redwood ******* shouldn't be in charge of it.

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07-13-2012, 03:09 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
So if the city had, for instance, built the arena which they moved into after several other tenants already occupied it, on the north side over by the old three rivers stadium, or any one of a hundred other places, they would have failed?
Could you restate this? I'm a little confused.

I think if we had news articles for every time a Penguins lobbyist was Downtown or in Harrisburg grubbing for a public subsidy, this thread would be very different!

All sports teams receive massive public subsidies. Construction of arenas, the infrastructure to support those arenas, public land with development rights, and in the Penguins' case, the demolition of the Lower Hill. The unique historical context of the Penguins and the Hill, and the unique opportunity for re-development of the Lower Hill, means the Penguins can operate in a way where that public subsidy generates a public benefit. They can, in some way, make up for a historical wrong. They have the opportunity to make Pittsburgh, their namesake city, a little more whole.

I have friends that work for the Penguins who have seen the plans, and from what I've been told, the Penguins organization really want to do this right. I hope so... and I expect the Hill and community groups to use whatever leverage they can to make sure that happens!

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07-13-2012, 03:10 PM
  #63
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Obviously I'm not from the 'Burgh but....man, what a joke.

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07-13-2012, 03:15 PM
  #64
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What a bunch of BS. That is like me saying that every successful business in my township should pay money towards me and my neighbors' home improvement projects.

Here is a great idea for improving the Hill District...Take all of the drug dealers, the people abusing the welfare system, the gang members, and move them all to Cleveland. Then you can rebuild the area for the few remaining individuals who would be left, who truly deserve, and would appreciate the renovations, and take care of them.

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07-13-2012, 03:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Here is a great idea for improving the Hill District...Take all of the drug dealers, the people abusing the welfare system, the gang members, and move them all to Cleveland. Then you can rebuild the area for the few remaining individuals who would be left, who truly deserve, and would appreciate the renovations, and take care of them.



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07-13-2012, 03:24 PM
  #66
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
Could you restate this? I'm a little confused.

I think if we had news articles for every time a Penguins lobbyist was Downtown or in Harrisburg grubbing for a public subsidy, this thread would be very different!

All sports teams receive massive public subsidies. Construction of arenas, the infrastructure to support those arenas, public land with development rights, and in the Penguins' case, the demolition of the Lower Hill. The unique historical context of the Penguins and the Hill, and the unique opportunity for re-development of the Lower Hill, means the Penguins can operate in a way where that public subsidy generates a public benefit. They can, in some way, make up for a historical wrong. They have the opportunity to make Pittsburgh, their namesake city, a little more whole.

I have friends that work for the Penguins who have seen the plans, and from what I've been told, the Penguins organization really want to do this right. I hope so... and I expect the Hill and community groups to use whatever leverage they can to make sure that happens!
But we don't because respectable groups don't ask for money the way this group seems to. Sit down with the Pens organization and have a talk about it. Don't go over their heads and to the media to try to villainize the Penguins. I would love for the Hill to get cleaned up. I think it makes sense that the Penguins would help do it since the hill is the neighborhood the arena is located. I don't, however, think the Penguins have an obligation to right the wrongs that they had absolutely nothing to do with.

FYI: The posts above me are what Shady is talking about.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 07-13-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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07-13-2012, 03:25 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
Could you restate this? I'm a little confused.

I think if we had news articles for every time a Penguins lobbyist was Downtown or in Harrisburg grubbing for a public subsidy, this thread would be very different!

All sports teams receive massive public subsidies. Construction of arenas, the infrastructure to support those arenas, public land with development rights, and in the Penguins' case, the demolition of the Lower Hill. The unique historical context of the Penguins and the Hill, and the unique opportunity for re-development of the Lower Hill, means the Penguins can operate in a way where that public subsidy generates a public benefit. They can, in some way, make up for a historical wrong. They have the opportunity to make Pittsburgh, their namesake city, a little more whole.

I have friends that work for the Penguins who have seen the plans, and from what I've been told, the Penguins organization really want to do this right. I hope so... and I expect the Hill and community groups to use whatever leverage they can to make sure that happens!

Someone asked you what the specific tie to that comminity was to enable them to keep coming back with a tin cup in hand begging for more, and you said, and I quote:

Quote:
They are by far the largest benefactor of those policies. Their franchise, and wealth, were built from the seeds of that demolition. That's the tie.

So I asked if the Pens had chosen NOT to go to that arena, but on the North Shore, Monroeville, Oakland, the Northside, off of McKnight road, anywhere else, or worse to another city and state entirely, would they have failed? Afterall they 'owe' everything they have to that demolition according to you.

I would argue otherwise. Who would have suffered more, the Pens or the Hill? That community benefitted far more from the Pens' choice at the point that they made it than the Pens did. The arena was up, for the CLO and then the Hornets, not the Pens. The community benefited, and STILL benefits, from jobs both directly and indirectly, as well as monies the Pens have given to the community already, STILL give. Aside from the hill, the region generally benefits.

Like I said, people act like the Pens have done and are doing nothing. No wonder businesses flee states like ours. People have no clue where jobs come from. They think that businesses fart jobs out of their ***** and that nothing goes into the decisions made so they are just cash cows to milk. We are in competition, in the world and state to state. We saw that when KC tried to take our team and offered to let them have the new arena rent free for the entire lease. The Pens have and should give something back, but there is a point where it becomes obnoxious. If you want to hammer someone hammer the Nuttings who have only taken and never have given a dime back. I pointed out what the Pens have done, it is far more than enough and obviously they do not get the credit that they deserve.

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Old
07-13-2012, 03:33 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
They are by far the largest benefactor of those policies. Their franchise, and wealth, were built from the seeds of that demolition. That's the tie.
What evidence is there that the construction of the Civic Arena was the primary catalyst for the downfall of the Hill District (and the inhabitants living there)? Did the more well-to-do move out and the impoverished move in? Or did most living there stay and become poorer along w/ the neighborhood?

It's implied that b/c the building of the Civic Arena coincided w/ the (anecdotally, not factually, backed) devolution of the Hill District, and the Penguins benefited from it, that the Penguins owe the descendants (and many who are not) of that "injustice" reparations in the form of "community redevelopment" which reeks of dubious efficacy.

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07-13-2012, 03:40 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Lamar Latrell View Post
What evidence is there that the construction of the Civic Arena was the primary catalyst for the downfall of the Hill District (and the inhabitants living there)? Did the more well-to-do move out and the impoverished move in? Or did most living there stay and become poorer along w/ the neighborhood?

It's implied that b/c the building of the Civic Arena coincided w/ the (anecdotally, not factually, backed) devolution of the Hill District, and the Penguins benefited from it, that the Penguins owe the descendants (and many who are not) of that "injustice" reparations in the form of "community redevelopment" which reeks of dubious efficacy.
they seriously tour down like 1/4 of the buildings in the district. I don't see how the Penguins could possibly be blamed seeing as they were about 2 decades away from existing though.

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07-13-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Lamar Latrell View Post
What evidence is there that the construction of the Civic Arena was the primary catalyst for the downfall of the Hill District (and the inhabitants living there)? Did the more well-to-do move out and the impoverished move in? Or did most living there stay and become poorer along w/ the neighborhood?

It's implied that b/c the building of the Civic Arena coincided w/ the (anecdotally, not factually, backed) devolution of the Hill District, and the Penguins benefited from it, that the Penguins owe the descendants (and many who are not) of that "injustice" reparations in the form of "community redevelopment" which reeks of dubious efficacy.
Actually the decline of the cities generally was more a cause of the development of the suburbs post world two. You may even be able to blame the invention of the automobile before that. The trip from Penn Hills to Downtown Pittsburgh by horse and buggy was not comfortable or fast, but once the automobile made people mobil, they moved to non-urban settings. The house with the white picket fence. The urban redevelopment of the 60's, which this project was a part of, was part of a nationwide attempt to address this exodus. Build something shiny and people will stay/come back. They all failed to one degree or another because they did not address why people left in the first place. In many cases they made it worse as they took on huge bonds to build things like Allegheny Mall, that stopped no one from leaving, but just raised taxes to pay for. Or made huge projects that were 'improvements' for the poor, but the projects bred crime and other issues that the communities that they destroyed to build these fought by being just that, vibrant communities.

So yeah, putting this on the Pens and acting like they owe someone something is showing a blantant lack of understanding of what went on in society right after WWII and the real mistakes which were made.

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Old
07-13-2012, 03:58 PM
  #71
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I seriously doubt the Arena had anything to do with why the Hill District is the way it is. The causes for a community to be disintegrate like that has nothing to do with geography. Just more people looking for a free hand out.

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07-13-2012, 04:05 PM
  #72
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I seriously doubt the Arena had anything to do with why the Hill District is the way it is. The causes for a community to be disintegrate like that has nothing to do with geography. Just more people looking for a free hand out.
that's a hard argument to support considering the arena was literally built on top of what used to be businesses and homes.

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07-13-2012, 04:09 PM
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that's a hard argument to support considering the arena was literally built on top of what used to be businesses and homes.
Not really that hard. Look at similarly situated demographics and communities that did not have an arena built on top of them. They did not better. Look at the North Side. Look at a hundred other areas within the City limits, a thousand statewide, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands in the country in that time period. I explained why above. The damage was done from other factors, the arena being built was one of more numerous examples than you can count of the symptoms.

If the arena have never been built the Hill District would still be exactly what it is today, likely even worse.


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Old
07-13-2012, 04:12 PM
  #74
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that's a hard argument to support considering the arena was literally built on top of what used to be businesses and homes.
Yeah moving 500 yards up the road really ruined them.

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Old
07-13-2012, 05:35 PM
  #75
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What a bunch of BS. That is like me saying that every successful business in my township should pay money towards me and my neighbors' home improvement projects.

Here is a great idea for improving the Hill District...Take all of the drug dealers, the people abusing the welfare system, the gang members, and move them all to Cleveland.

Or Detroit. Vicious cycles are hard to break, that's for sure. You could move everyone out but it wouldn't take long for the replacements to end up with the same problems unless you're going to level the whole area and make it a new suburb of Pittsburgh.

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