HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Notices

Your Opinion of Ray Shero

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-13-2012, 05:37 PM
  #26
71
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moundsville, WV
Country: United States
Posts: 5,623
vCash: 500
I'd like to know how the Staal trade is "bleak"

71 is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:38 PM
  #27
Gooch
Registered User
 
Gooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seymour, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 13,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 View Post
I'd like to know how the Staal trade is "bleak"
We traded away the best player and didnt get anyone with the kind of upside he had. Is that clear enough?

Gooch is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:38 PM
  #28
Blitzburgh87*
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,647
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 View Post
I'm not typing a novel as to why I believe Ray is a top 5 GM because my right hand is casted and I'm chickenpecking my keyboard with my left.

The Staal trade was amazing, Staal was as good as gone on 7/1/13 IMO. To get that kind of return is unbelievable.

The Neal trade, well, IMO we got the two best players in that deal.

Did the Martin/Michalek signings turn out? Absolutely not, but I believe Martin can, and will rebound this season and Michalek is off the books for a just as good right now player in Despres for much, much less.

Looking at our contracts, what's our most outrageous contract right now? Martin?
Martin was a UFA and that was a very fair deal on the open market that year.

/halfassedrant
Couldn't have said it better myself. Although i wish instead of Martin we could have gotten volchenkov

Blitzburgh87* is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:39 PM
  #29
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Dark Mod Powers
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Fangorn
Country: United States
Posts: 24,543
vCash: 500
Agree with Father Time that the Michalek trade is really the only thing the last few years that has bugged me quite a bit. For whatever reason though they didn't feel confident in the guy with his style of play and injury situation maybe. I still think we could've gotten more for him but PHX was probably the only destination Ray had in mind because he knew it would be the least disruptive to Z. That and he knew PHX would readily take him back with a decent contract. Would've liked to get Vermette out of that deal though; throw in a draft pick or whatever and make it happen. That, vs. all the prospects.

Darth Vitale is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:41 PM
  #30
71
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moundsville, WV
Country: United States
Posts: 5,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
We traded away the best player and didnt get anyone with the kind of upside he had. Is that clear enough?
Staal was never going to be more than a #3 Center here.

We drafted a guy drawing comparisons to Letang, a possible Orpik replacement down the road, and a more than adequate replacement for Staal.

71 is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:41 PM
  #31
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Great Play Orpik!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
He continues to fail to bring in top 6 talent for Sid every season and it is getting old.
'08 - Traded for Hossa
'09 - Traded for Kunitz
'11 - Traded for Neal

Shero has been bringing in top 6 wing talent regularly. But apparently it's his fault that Hossa chose to sign with another team, and that Sid was hurt when Neal developed into a First Team All-Star.

Quote:
The Pens just seem like they can never sign any of the big name free agents when they have cap space. You always here how well the team treats players, they have a top notch facility and a contending team. There is no excuse for Ray to continuously fail at signing respectable forwards in the offseason.
First of all, the Pens signed two of the most coveted UFA defensemen of the 2010 off-season, so your original premise is flawed to begin with.

Moving on...you can't put players in choke holds and make them come to your team. Shero offered the best deal to Hossa, but he was lured by Detroit's Cup win. Shero offered a comparable deal to Parise, but he wanted to play in his hometown.

These variables are out of a GM's control.

Quote:
Should I even go into how pathetic our forward prospects are. Eric Tangradi has been our best prospect, but the dude is gonna be 24 soon. Is he still a prospect? Beau Bennett has played in like half of the games for Denver the last 2 seasons.
Power forwards take time, and it isn't our GM's fault when players get hurt.

Quote:
As I said in the thread about that chooch we signed today, Shero came into a great situation. The core of the stanley cup winning team was already here. The Pens already had Crosby, Malkin, Scuderi, Letang drafted, #2 overall pick, Gogo drafted, Whitney (led to Koon, but it was Shero who signed Whitney to that awful contract), Orpik, Kennedy, Talbot, Fleury, etc etc. Shero did a very nice job at brining in complimentary players like Guerin and Gill, but that team won because of 71 and 87
Ken Holland came into a great situation in Detroit too. Does that lessen his track record?

Quote:
Shero has made some fantastic trades; the Neal and Hossa deals were straight up robberies. He has made some pretty great trades, until the Michalek donation.
The Michalek donation was made to quickly clear cap space so he could take his best shot at those free agents you want so badly.

Quote:
We are told that we have some great defensive prospects, but after the disappointments of Espisito, Caputi, Chris Bourque, Tangradi, etc I wont be convinced until these guys are in the NHL playing. It seems like our last true blue chip prospect to amount to anything was Letang, and hes played in over 350 games. Its been a LONG TIME. But that isnt all Shero's fault.
That's what happens when you trade several draft picks early in your tenure to make a Finals run and win a Stanley Cup.

Quote:
Shero's off season signings of low risk, LOW REWARD is tiring. How many more fringe nhl players ce an you take? He has some sick obsession with 4th liner garbage. Instead of signing 10 garbage players, sign one or 2 guys who dont suck. Its great to have depth, but not if Kennedy is playing on your 2nd line.
Kennedy has never played on our 2nd line when the team has been healthy. Further, Shero changed the whole philosophy of the Pens' bottom 6 from a bunch of wannabe scorers into legitimate checkers and energy players.

You might want the likes of Tomas Surovy and Michel Ouellet in your bottom 6, but nobody who saw them does.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:47 PM
  #32
Gooch
Registered User
 
Gooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seymour, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 13,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 View Post
Staal was never going to be more than a #3 Center here.

We drafted a guy drawing comparisons to Letang, a possible Orpik replacement down the road, and a more than adequate replacement for Staal.
We lost a guy capable of close to 30 goals while not needing a powerplay spot to get them. What we got back was not nearly as good and the one caveat to that trade was the freed up cap space which did nothing for us as we failed at Parise so yeah it's not as rosy as you see it.

For a team that is in a Win Now mode there really is no way to say that we arent worse off this october than we were last october.

Gooch is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:48 PM
  #33
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Great Play Orpik!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Last poor draft? Basically all of them because there is very little of the productive members of the roster who are Shero Draftees.
Detractors never fail to overlook the fact that Shero's draft results are affected by 1) trades that helped them to make the Finals and win the Cup, 2) multiple injuries, and 3) college players who take longer development paths.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:51 PM
  #34
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Great Play Orpik!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
We lost a guy capable of close to 30 goals while not needing a powerplay spot to get them. What we got back was not nearly as good and the one caveat to that trade was the freed up cap space which did nothing for us as we failed at Parise so yeah it's not as rosy as you see it.

For a team that is in a Win Now mode there really is no way to say that we arent worse off this october than we were last october.
Damn, and the season starts tomorrow, too.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:51 PM
  #35
Gooch
Registered User
 
Gooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seymour, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 13,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Detractors never fail to overlook the fact that Shero's draft results are affected by 1) trades that helped them to make the Finals and win the Cup, 2) multiple injuries, and 3) college players who take longer development paths.
Well how many years do you want to give him since apparently 5 years is not enough time? You cant overlook the fact that we still have little to nothing in forward prospects during the entire duration of his tenure.

Gooch is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:51 PM
  #36
71
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moundsville, WV
Country: United States
Posts: 5,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
We lost a guy capable of close to 30 goals while not needing a powerplay spot to get them. What we got back was not nearly as good and the one caveat to that trade was the freed up cap space which did nothing for us as we failed at Parise so yeah it's not as rosy as you see it.

For a team that is in a Win Now mode there really is no way to say that we arent worse off this october than we were last october.
So your saying you'd rather have one year of Staal and lose him for nothing rather than get what we could for him?

Thank God the season doesn't start July 14th.

71 is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:52 PM
  #37
TorstenFrings
wieder zuhause!!!
 
TorstenFrings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Germany
Posts: 3,569
vCash: 500
I think he is easily above average and fits us very well.

The one thing I understand is the frustration with the depth in forward prospects, because I share it. Then again, as long as he manages to turn solid D picks like Whitney and Goose into Kunitz and Neal, it still works out somehow indirectly.
As for the other quibs about the drafting, Shero drafted top20 only for the second time this year and Staal worked out just fine. Maybe at least wait Pouliot out before findings his drafts lacking compared to effing no-brainers like Crosby and Malkin.

TorstenFrings is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:53 PM
  #38
Gallatin
A Banksy of Goonism
 
Gallatin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 940
vCash: 500
I would put Shero solidly in the top 10-and possibly the top 5. He is Excellent at organizational development, to the point organizational managers like myself learn much from his example. His early drafts were a little suspect, but it is clearly improving this decade, and he is a master trader. I also noticed that when the drafts were hurting a little, he was signing some gritty cup winning support players like Cookie & Feds.

Gallatin is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:53 PM
  #39
Gooch
Registered User
 
Gooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seymour, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 13,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Damn, and the season starts tomorrow, too.
You act like there are great FA's still left to sign that have any chance of signing here. Lets be realistic, the ship sailed when Parise signed in Minny.

Gooch is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:54 PM
  #40
71
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moundsville, WV
Country: United States
Posts: 5,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Well how many years do you want to give him since apparently 5 years is not enough time? You cant overlook the fact that we still have little to nothing in forward prospects during the entire duration of his tenure.
Something tells me you didn't want Shero to draft Bryan Rust

71 is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:54 PM
  #41
sniugneP
Registered User
 
sniugneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 5,675
vCash: 500
People forgetting that we signed Michalek via free agency. It's not like we gave up players to get Michalek.

sniugneP is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:56 PM
  #42
Til the End of Time
Registered User
 
Til the End of Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 6,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniugneP View Post
People forgetting that we signed Michalek via free agency. It's not like we gave up players to get Michalek.
true, but it seems like poor asset management when you have a well-regarded d-men signed to a reasonable deal, and you trade him for basically nothing.

particularly when his departure leaves an already weak area even weaker.

Til the End of Time is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:57 PM
  #43
Gooch
Registered User
 
Gooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seymour, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 13,593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 View Post
So your saying you'd rather have one year of Staal and lose him for nothing rather than get what we could for him?

Thank God the season doesn't start July 14th.
My issue is more with who he decided to use that 8th overall pick on, or more notably who he didnt use it on. That trade would look a lot better if there was a forward with upside equal to or greater than Staal along with the cheaper replacements we got. Instead we lost a great forward and replaced it with.... another defensive prospect.

Gooch is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:58 PM
  #44
Ogrezilla
Arrogant Yinzer
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 29,204
vCash: 500
Let's just look at the Cup team and see how much of it was Craig Patrick

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Fedotenko-Malkin-Talbot
Cooke-Staal-Kenney
Dupuis-Adams-Satan

Orpik-Gonchar
Eaton-Letang
Gill-Scuderi

Fleury
Garon

Kunitz and Guerin were both traded for by Shero in great deals for us. We gave up Ryan Whitney and a 3rd for two legitimate top 6 wingers. We signed Fedotenko who despite what people say was a very good signing. He signed Cooke and drafted Staal. He got Dupuis for about 5 bags of pucks and got Atlanta to throw a Hossa rental in with him. Adams from waivers has been a solid pickup for us even if he is about done at this point. Satan obviously didn't pan out great, but he was far from a bad pickup considering he was cheap and here for one year. Eaton and Gill really helped solidify that defense.

I don't know what people want him to do as far as bringing in better wings. This is what, the second time Shero has had the cap space to go for a high end winger? Guess what, we aren't the only team that failed. Hossa didn't want to be here. Sure, hindsight tells us that Shero should have fired Therrien to help convince Hossa to stay, but the guy took us from the basement to the finals. Letting Malone walk at the same time sucked. Probably Shero's biggest mistake to this point was letting Malone walk while waiting for Hossa. Now this year we get people saying its Hossa all over again. But what should he have done? It's not like he missed any big free agents because of Parise. The 2nd and 3rd best free agent forwards are still unsigned. Ya, he dumped Michalek and maybe a bit prematurely. Except it's July 13th so really we have no idea.

Seriously, the Hossa/Malone situation is his biggest mess up. Assuming we should wait and see what happens with the cap from Michalek, the next worst move is what, trading for Ponikarovsky? I guess maybe signing M&M despite both being good players for us their first year here. Let's see how Martin pans out. As far as non-moves when has Shero had a good opportunity to sign a wing for Sid and missed it other than Hossa and Parise? Who are these guys that were available, we could afford and didn't sign?

Ogrezilla is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 05:59 PM
  #45
71
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moundsville, WV
Country: United States
Posts: 5,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
My issue is more with who he decided to use that 8th overall pick on, or more notably who he didnt use it on. That trade would look a lot better if there was a forward with upside equal to or greater than Staal along with the cheaper replacements we got. Instead we lost a great forward and replaced it with.... another defensive prospect.
That Goligoski guy turned out to be a pretty good forward.

71 is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 06:01 PM
  #46
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Great Play Orpik!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Well how many years do you want to give him since apparently 5 years is not enough time? You cant overlook the fact that we still have little to nothing in forward prospects during the entire duration of his tenure.
I think we'll start to see the fruits of Shero's drafting this year, in fact. Despres has been mentioned as a possible partner for Letang, Strait and Bortuzzo will be playing somewhere in the NHL, Jeffrey and (hopefully) Veilleux should finally be healthy, and Bennett and Morrow could surprise a few people in camp.

As for forward prospects, like I said - trades, injuries, and college draftees with longer development paths play a big part. That's to say nothing of the Pens spending most of their high picks on defensemen.

More to the point though, as long as we can move other assets to acquire scoring wingers, what does it matter whether we have a bunch of scoring wing prospects?

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now  
Old
07-13-2012, 06:02 PM
  #47
superstar1797
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 34
vCash: 500
Great with trades
Whitney for Kunitz & Tangradi; Goligoski for Neal & Niskanen; Armstron, Christensen, Esposito & pick for Hossa & Dupuis

Average with drafting
jury is still out on this - really don't like this years first round pick at all

Great with player contracts (Offense)
Sid, Neal, Dupuis, Geno (and hopefully next contract too) all signed for below market value

Horrible with player contracts (Defense)
ex. Martin, Michalek, Whitney - all grossly overpaid

superstar1797 is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 06:05 PM
  #48
Ogrezilla
Arrogant Yinzer
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 29,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstar1797 View Post
Great with trades
Whitney for Kunitz & Tangradi; Goligoski for Neal & Niskanen; Armstron, Christensen, Esposito & pick for Hossa & Dupuis

Average with drafting
jury is still out on this - really don't like this years first round pick at all

Great with player contracts (Offense)
Sid, Neal, Dupuis, Geno (and hopefully next contract too) all signed for below market value

Horrible with player contracts (Defense)
ex. Martin, Michalek, Whitney - all grossly overpaid
slightly overpaid. Martin is worth 4 something easily. Michalek is worth his 4M. Whitney would be worth his if he could stay healthy. The dude is one of the best offensive d-men in the league.

Ogrezilla is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 06:05 PM
  #49
sniugneP
Registered User
 
sniugneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 5,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I think we'll start to see the fruits of Shero's drafting this year, in fact. Despres has been mentioned as a possible partner for Letang, Strait and Bortuzzo will be playing somewhere in the NHL, Jeffrey and (hopefully) Veilleux should finally be healthy, and Bennett and Morrow could surprise a few people in camp.

As for forward prospects, like I said - trades, injuries, and college draftees with longer development paths play a big part. That's to say nothing of the Pens spending most of their high picks on defensemen.

More to the point though, as long as we can move other assets to acquire scoring wingers, what does it matter whether we have a bunch of scoring wing prospects?
This. Puck-moving defensemen hold higher value than forwards. I have a feeling that Pouliot will be traded eventually for a proven forward since we already have Morrow.

sniugneP is offline  
Old
07-13-2012, 06:05 PM
  #50
71
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moundsville, WV
Country: United States
Posts: 5,623
vCash: 500
My biggest issue with people *****ing about the Pouliot pick is if Maatta was picked at #8 and Pouliot at #22, not near as much would be said because Pouliot was considered a 15-20 talent and Maatta was considered a top 10 talent.

71 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.