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Shane Doan thread (Buccigross - The ridiculous offer is Buffalo's)

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Old
07-13-2012, 08:07 PM
  #76
Digable5
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Originally Posted by JOHNBOY View Post
agreed, I want Doan but not at that cost.. Move out salary and find away to offer him a 2 year deal at 8 per... still overpayment IMO but he is just what this team needs and thensome...
If he's got a 4/30 offer do you really think he's going to take 2/8? If he really is "just what this team needs" why not match or outbid his highest offer?

I agree 4/30 is crazy high, but he's much more likely to take an offer from a Western team for less. So you have to outbid them in order to entice him to pick up everything and come East. He's unlikely to see many offers at that level so it may be enough to bring him here.

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07-13-2012, 08:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by FearRipSimonick View Post
I don't have a problem with the cap hit. I even said at the beginning of the FA period that let's throw 7-8 mil at him for a year or two...but four years is a bit much. Still, with what he brings to the table outside of just his 50 pts, I think that cap hit is fair if that's what you need to get over the top. I'd say bring him on board and slap a C on him Day One.
Something else he brings to the table is a wife and 4 school-age children with deep roots in Phoenix. Are we going to get the best out of Shane Doan if he packs them up and moves to Buffalo where they have to enter a new school system and make new friends? Maybe they'll go for a Ryan Miller/Noureen DeWulf arrangement with the family remaining behind Phoenix. I can't see that working with 4 kids involved unless he plays for a western conference team.

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07-13-2012, 08:09 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
If he's got a 4/30 offer do you really think he's going to take 2/8? If he really is "just what this team needs" why not match or outbid his highest offer?

I agree 4/30 is crazy high, but he's much more likely to take an offer from a Western team for less. So you have to outbid them in order to entice him to pick up everything and come East. He's unlikely to see many offers at that level so it may be enough to bring him here.
It really depends who gave him that 4/30. He's not coming East for a non-contender...if the Islanders or Canadiens offered that deal you wouldn't need to outbid it

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07-13-2012, 08:12 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
If he's got a 4/30 offer do you really think he's going to take 2/8? If he really is "just what this team needs" why not match or outbid his highest offer?

I agree 4/30 is crazy high, but he's much more likely to take an offer from a Western team for less. So you have to outbid them in order to entice him to pick up everything and come East. He's unlikely to see many offers at that level so it may be enough to bring him here.
He said 8 per, so 2/16.

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07-13-2012, 08:14 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
It really depends who gave him that 4/30. He's not coming East for a non-contender...if the Islanders or Canadiens offered that deal you wouldn't need to outbid it
That is true and I did think of that, but without knowing its tough to make that call. A 2/8 deal as proposed by JOHNBOY would be matched by any number of teams he's likely take over ours. Based on location and perception as a "contender" I think we would have to be the significantly higher bidder over many suitors in order for him to choose us. 4/30 in my mind is that huge overpayment that may need to be made to get it done.

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07-13-2012, 08:18 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
He said 8 per, so 2/16.
Thanks, I missed that. Still, the only way I think that gets done if there is some agreement to trade him to Phoenix after one season if they get their act together. Otherwise, he'd take the bigger deal to essentially end his career. Although, I've also suggested making him a one year deal and letting him test Phoenix again the next offseason. Would be a great stop gap for Armia.

ANd even if we take the 4/30 deal, as front loaded as possible to get approved, he could be traded later to cap floor teams or possibly back to Phoenix for him to finish out his career.

EDIT: Although its likely coming with a NTC to eliminate the cap floor team option.


Last edited by Digable5: 07-13-2012 at 08:19 PM. Reason: EDIT: Although its likely coming with a NTC that could prevent the cap floor team option.
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07-13-2012, 08:30 PM
  #82
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I don't believe this story. How could someone pay this? It's way out of whack, ruins team salary structure. Plus he's 35. Stuck with hit no matter what. No interest. Not this desperate,

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07-13-2012, 08:37 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by HogtownSabresfan View Post
I don't believe this story. How could someone pay this? It's way out of whack, ruins team salary structure. Plus he's 35. Stuck with hit no matter what. No interest. Not this desperate,
The bad part isn't even the salary... relatively speaking, anyhow. If a team can make it work, they can make it work. But a team can do absolutely nothing about his cap hit if he sharply declines, because its a 35+ contract. It'd be totally ridiculous to even consider 4 years and lots of money.

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07-13-2012, 08:50 PM
  #84
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For me the team that just seems like they would be interested would be Florida.... obvious why they would want him (just not the price mentioned)

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07-13-2012, 08:59 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
I can't imagine the Sabres offering that deal, but yeah, if they did, I would think it would spell the end of Stafford. They could also try to unload Leino to a basement team (not likely).
Doubt it, what with all the comments Regier's made about not wanting to trade players who have good chemistry with other players--a clear allusion to Stafford-Ennis.

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07-13-2012, 09:45 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Doubt it, what with all the comments Regier's made about not wanting to trade players who have good chemistry with other players--a clear allusion to Stafford-Ennis.
I just heard a little Steve Somers here rereading that. You aren't downstate, are you?

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07-13-2012, 09:48 PM
  #87
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I think it COULD be us. But I'd prefer to probably pass. I love Doan and want him here but that kind of contract with the 35+ rule is a huge risk. It's like another Holik-type overpayment all over again. Regardless, we would make some sense. Eastern Conference team, have the money and cap space to spend, Terry wants the Cup and is willing to take risks, Darcy has proven he can make big moves in trades and free agency and even in the draft, and adding Doan would totally change the structure of this team in regards to leadership and heart IMO. Could be exactly who Terry wants. Also, the team knows it has to overpay in order to lure Doan out of the Western Conference and likely across the continent, taking his family into consideration. We're also always a team that has to overpay somewhat, even under new ownership.

Whoever it is, the team wants Doan badly and knows that a huge offer is one thing that could entice Doan to reject San Jose, Vancouver, and other closer teams regionally and come to the other conference. Not only that, but the term is even more in Doan's favor. The offering team probably hopes a longer term will be easy to sway Doan to move his family to a new city and not just be there for a year or two. More of like a new permanent home.

Of all the teams, it was reported yesterday about 16 of them have reached out to Doan. Those teams are pretty clearly BUF, CAR, CHI, DET, LAK, MTL, NYR, PHI, PIT, SJS, STL, TBL, TOR, VAN, and WPG. That's 15 teams, with the last one obviously Phoenix, if we're counting them.

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07-13-2012, 09:55 PM
  #88
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And of the teams I listed, nine are Eastern Conference teams. 1/9 of a chance it's us.

I don't buy the Islanders for one second. Unless they just got into it today, they haven't been one of the teams even interested. They could have just decided today to call him and make an offer, but I find that unlikely.

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07-13-2012, 10:03 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
cap wise... it makes sense to me.... if you look at what they have available this year and next, and what's coming off the books over the next 2 years.

the sabres are in very good shape cap wise, as they are structured to turn over from the old core to the new very nicely over the next few years.
I know how much cap room Buffalo will have, I actually posted about it recently. That doesn't mean you go blow it on another bad contract. A 4/30 offer reeks of a low rung team reaching for the cap floor. For any team looking to be competitive for the next four years it doesn't make sense. All the intagibles in the world won't make up for wasting 7.5 mil in cap space for 40 pts. He might crack 50 this year, when Buffalo isn't a real contender anyway. After that 40 will be about it, and Stafford will be producing that or better for 4 mil. Pominville is/will be a better value, and then there is Armia coming up. Doan is good for a 2/10 deal, bad for a 4/30 deal...real bad.

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07-13-2012, 10:34 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
I know how much cap room Buffalo will have, I actually posted about it recently. That doesn't mean you go blow it on another bad contract. A 4/30 offer reeks of a low rung team reaching for the cap floor. For any team looking to be competitive for the next four years it doesn't make sense. All the intagibles in the world won't make up for wasting 7.5 mil in cap space for 40 pts. He might crack 50 this year, when Buffalo isn't a real contender anyway. After that 40 will be about it, and Stafford will be producing that or better for 4 mil. Pominville is/will be a better value, and then there is Armia coming up. Doan is good for a 2/10 deal, bad for a 4/30 deal...real bad.
Doan hasn't been under 50 pts. since 2001-2002 when he had 49. He's also still averaging over 19 min./game (3min PP and 1min PK). You can cut him down 2 min./game and his ATOI is still higher than Vanek's. Not to mention he had 205 hits last year.

I also did the math quickly but I believe he's missed 38 games since 98-99. Thats 13 seasons. Or he's missed on average less than 3 games per season. He's as tough and durable as they come and should contribute in a number of ways if and when his offensive production takes a dive. Maybe not $7.5M worth but sometimes those are the risks you have to take. And adding someone like this for that kind of money is going to open future UFAs eyes to the possibilities of the Buffalo Sabres.

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07-13-2012, 10:37 PM
  #91
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I would LOVE Doan, but at that term and cap hit, I'd probably throw up we signed him.

But hey, if it lead to a Cup....

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07-13-2012, 10:42 PM
  #92
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I just heard a little Steve Somers here rereading that. You aren't downstate, are you?
Nope, Bodymore.

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07-13-2012, 10:46 PM
  #93
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I know everyone is freaked out that 30M/4Y and 7.5/y is waaaaay higher than he "deserves" and isn't efficient usage of cap space. But I'd just like to suggest that with 1) the cap's tendency to go uuuuuup, and 2) Pegula... there isn't that much risk of a cap catastrophe if we do get him for those terms.

The reason you hoard players with efficient cap hits is so that when an UFA you really like comes along, you can overpay him to convince him to join you. Whether or not Doan is the UFA to cash in on is a good debate, but please don't zero in on the point totals. We are in the middle of a substance-over-flash renaissance with the underlying theory that the skill guys we keep might actually be effective this year if they have some nasty to go get them the puck.

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07-13-2012, 11:03 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by is the answer jesus View Post
What would the Sabres do with another top 4 defenseman? Defensive depth is our biggest strength. A guy like Doan would fit everything this team needs. Would I be happy about paying him 7.5 Million over 4 years? Not really, but as Jame said I wouldn't worry too much about the cap implications at least not for a few years

For years I keep reading about how deep our defense is and how it's our biggest strength, and then every year defense is the teams biggest problem. Whether it's rash of injuries, poor play, inexperience, or a combination of all of that. It's always something with the blue line. Regher is way better than Rivet was as a Sabre, but he's still a bottom pair defense man. They got a few promising AHL guys who can be very servicable at the NHL level-in limited doses. This includes the much coveted (IMO overhyped) McNabb and for that matter Weber who still hasn't provene that he belings in the NHL as a fulltime player. If Myers gets his **** together, and Sekera continues to progress, then we got 3 top 4 defense men with Ehrhoff in the mix. I like Leopold and I support having him on the team but like Regher he's of better service with bottom pair ice time. They need a veteran defense man who can play 20-25 minutes, and be a rock defensively with a physical edge. Maybe a veteran stop gap until McNabb is truly ready for that role. I don't know who that player is, or how they will get him, but I'd give HIM 8 million a season for a couple of years loooong before I'd hook Doan up with that kind of cap hit.


Anyways, I am a Doan fan. I'd be thrilled to have him on the team.

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07-13-2012, 11:32 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I know everyone is freaked out that 30M/4Y and 7.5/y is waaaaay higher than he "deserves" and isn't efficient usage of cap space. But I'd just like to suggest that with 1) the cap's tendency to go uuuuuup, and 2) Pegula... there isn't that much risk of a cap catastrophe if we do get him for those terms.
There is that much risk. Pegula can do literally nothing to deal with the cap hit since Doan is over 35. He can't bury him in the minors or loan him overseas. Even if he hired someone to murder Doan, I think his cap hit may stay on the books. The only possible thing to do would be to trade him and but if this kind of scenario came to pass he would be virtually untradeable.

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For years I keep reading about how deep our defense is and how it's our biggest strength, and then every year defense is the teams biggest problem.
Our defense wasn't deep until last season so I'm not sure where for years you've been reading that.

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07-13-2012, 11:49 PM
  #96
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There is that much risk. Pegula can do literally nothing to deal with the cap hit since Doan is over 35. He can't bury him in the minors or loan him overseas. Even if he hired someone to murder Doan, I think his cap hit may stay on the books. The only possible thing to do would be to trade him and but if this kind of scenario came to pass he would be virtually untradeable.
I am aware of that, I was referring to the fact that he could bury Leino to get some breathing room if there were a cap crunch. Right now Leino is still in the plans since he deserves more time and we technically don't have better options at this time. But that could change in 1-2 years in the hypothetical where we are stuck with ineffective Doan.

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07-13-2012, 11:52 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I am aware of that, I was referring to the fact that he could bury Leino to get some breathing room if there were a cap crunch. Right now Leino is still in the plans since he deserves more time and we technically don't have better options at this time. But that could change in 1-2 years in the hypothetical where we are stuck with ineffective Doan.
7.5 million is a looooooooot of money to be on the hook for. It's one thing to have to face burying a guy, it's another to pay him $7.5 million to be a 4th liner or what have you.

I would like Doan but I don't see why we'd take this kind of risk. He's not the only good winger that will be available in the next couple of years. The others won't require this sort of risk if indeed this is the length of contract it will require to sign Shane Doan (who consequently is extremely unlikely to end up here anyhow).

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07-13-2012, 11:58 PM
  #98
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If the NHL gets their way, that cap is going to go down as soon as September 15th. Plus, if there's any change to how the cap is calculated in the new CBA...it might not rise as sharply as it has in the past.

Assuming the cap will rise--and by a lot--thus making the 7.5 not as important is extremely risky and could very easily backfire in a huge way.

And besides...the wasted cap could be used to improve at other positions. What if an extra 2 million was the difference between a Stafford and a Parise? Then you'd be ruing the fact that you have Doan eating up that space.

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07-14-2012, 12:00 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
For years I keep reading about how deep our defense is and how it's our biggest strength, and then every year defense is the teams biggest problem. Whether it's rash of injuries, poor play, inexperience, or a combination of all of that. It's always something with the blue line. Regher is way better than Rivet was as a Sabre, but he's still a bottom pair defense man. They got a few promising AHL guys who can be very servicable at the NHL level-in limited doses. This includes the much coveted (IMO overhyped) McNabb and for that matter Weber who still hasn't provene that he belings in the NHL as a fulltime player. If Myers gets his **** together, and Sekera continues to progress, then we got 3 top 4 defense men with Ehrhoff in the mix. I like Leopold and I support having him on the team but like Regher he's of better service with bottom pair ice time. They need a veteran defense man who can play 20-25 minutes, and be a rock defensively with a physical edge. Maybe a veteran stop gap until McNabb is truly ready for that role. I don't know who that player is, or how they will get him, but I'd give HIM 8 million a season for a couple of years loooong before I'd hook Doan up with that kind of cap hit.


Anyways, I am a Doan fan. I'd be thrilled to have him on the team.
our problem isn't always our defense itself, part of it is our system. the sabres really aren't built for a collapsing system IMO-you need a strong backcheck and big guys who can clear people out of the crease. we have regehr, myers (who will play physically, but hasn't done it consistently yet) and weber, but he sucks. part of it is that the majority of our top 6 forwards this year weren't that good defensively. roy's decent defensively, pominville's above average, but vanek, stafford, leino, ennis, hodgson, and foligno don't have particularly good 2 way games yet. leino's ok i suppose. then there was miller's poor play, that was a big issue too, it's not all on the defense.

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07-14-2012, 12:32 AM
  #100
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Gary Roberts and Mark Recchi both played till they were about 42-43. And they weren't completely washed up for those later years. I'd have taken either of those guys on the roster at 40.

Having Doan for four years starting at age 35 is not a worry for me. If he doesn't have to retire due to some injury by then, he'll still bring things to the table at 38 or 39.

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