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Old
07-13-2012, 06:09 PM
  #76
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Hey, at least Redwood did not demand that a $1.00 surcharge be placed on every beer sold in the venue!

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07-13-2012, 06:13 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Or Detroit. Vicious cycles are hard to break, that's for sure. You could move everyone out but it wouldn't take long for the replacements to end up with the same problems unless you're going to level the whole area and make it a new suburb of Pittsburgh.
You can move the community where ever you want. It's not the buildings it's the people. You can pretty up the surroundings but that's not going to help the mother of three still has to work two jobs & still doesn't make a living wage.

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07-13-2012, 07:46 PM
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Hey look they want to be handed money again. Go figure.

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07-13-2012, 07:52 PM
  #79
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You can move the community where ever you want. It's not the buildings it's the people. You can pretty up the surroundings but that's not going to help the mother of three still has to work two jobs & still doesn't make a living wage.
We're agreeing. I was suggesting that the place itself has nothing to build upon and would only be occupied by people of the same income level and same problems. The people who live there have to fix the problems by educating their kids and teaching their kids how to live right, and as they get older... those kids will start doing the things necessary to build the place up. That's the only solution. Programs don't work, welfare doesn't work, crying about racism doesn't work. Only parents doing the right thing on a big scale, can work.

We could go all sorts of directions on your working Mom angle, but I'll start with sex education. Stop having babies / don't have babies until you're married and your husband has a job with income to spare beyond rent, food, electric, gas etc. Give unplanned babies up for adoption instead of having them at 16, 17, 18 and then dropping out of school. If you are going to get busy, get on the damn birth control pills from planned parenthood or get some condoms. So many of these kids are not the result of failed contraception; they're the result of no contraception and no common sense on the part of the mother.

If you don't have two kids by the time you're 20 you won't HAVE to work 3 ****** jobs. You can work one job, put yourself through night classes if you're motivated, and build a foundation for the rest of your life. But again, no one teaches that. For some reason the mother always keeps the kid, always ends up alone, always has more, and it's kids go direct to jail from there or kids grow up and get someone else's daughter pregnant.

It's a cycle that has to be broken from within or it will never be broken.


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07-13-2012, 08:54 PM
  #80
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nevermind


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07-13-2012, 09:09 PM
  #81
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And the other point is why is this neighborhood so necessary to save. Wouldn't a $1 parking surcharge be better served elsewhere in the community?

The world has changed rapidly, new neighborhoods pop up and old ones become dilapidated, even entire cities (it's even worse when the government is heavily involved. Google "Haikyo"). It's sad, but inevitable (unless you want to argue the entire premise upon which our modern economy is based, which is cool). Part of the Hill District was torn down, the world changed and the city became suburbanized. Wealthy people moved to the suburbs, poor people moved closer to the city center b/c they didn't have the luxury of private transportation. The gap in career mobility became stark.

It's sad to see a once vibrant area turn to crap, but there were far stronger forces than the CLO that caused HDs current state. The Pens are being gracious and, as always, trying to win goodwill by playing nice, but this is a step too far.

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07-13-2012, 09:40 PM
  #82
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Given its proximity to downtown and the potential that exists there, what's wrong with gentrification in the hill?

A lot of young people and young couples are sticking around Pittsburgh these days. They don't want to live in Murrysville, Gibsonia, or Cranberry - they want to live in the city. Lots of untapped potential in the Hill.

The ball is already moving. Property is being snatched up in the area and converted into higher-rent lofts.

Let these folks get their cut - they'll be gone in 10 years anyway.

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07-13-2012, 10:14 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Snooki Stackhouse View Post
Given its proximity to downtown and the potential that exists there, what's wrong with gentrification in the hill?

A lot of young people and young couples are sticking around Pittsburgh these days. They don't want to live in Murrysville, Gibsonia, or Cranberry - they want to live in the city. Lots of untapped potential in the Hill.

The ball is already moving. Property is being snatched up in the area and converted into higher-rent lofts.

Let these folks get their cut - they'll be gone in 10 years anyway.
They dont deserve more hand outs and the hill should be leveled. I no everyone here is trying to be PC about this stuff and honestly its bull. This type of stuff is what is destorying this country. Everyone thinks they should get a hand out and have everything handed to them.

Level the dang Hill and put houses there, not section 8 homes that i pay with my taxes as i watch every night on the news all the killings, drive by shootings, drugs, people with nicers cars than me but yet on welfare etc.


If the Penguins do anything for those people living on the hill, give them grants and sholarships toward college.

And get more cops up on the hill and clean that place up.


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 07-14-2012 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Removed hilarious Jesus comment; it was meant to be a humorous side-comment.
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07-13-2012, 11:04 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by farscape1 View Post
They dont deserve more hand outs and the hill should be leveled. I no everyone here is trying to be PC about this stuff and honestly its bull. This type of stuff is what is destorying this country. Everyone thinks they should get a hand out and have everything handed to them.

Level the dang Hill and put houses there, not section 8 homes that i pay with my taxes as i watch every night on the news all the killings, drive by shootings, drugs, people with nicers cars than me but yet on welfare etc.


If the Penguins do anything for those people living on the hill, give them grants and sholarships toward college.

And get more cops up on the hill and clean that place up.
I hope this is supposed to be ironic.

I have no problem gentrifying the HD. It makes a ton of sense. The actual location is fantastic and SHOULD be one of the most prized areas in the city (along w/ riverfront property, but that's a whole other story). It'd be great if there was a massive private residential infrastructure project and people could make money off their property. But lo, that is unlikely and the Pens don't owe anything more.


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07-13-2012, 11:54 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by johnniewalker View Post
I wasn't around in the 50s, so forgive me the historical ignorance of this question. How is it that Wylie Avenue being cut off by the construction of the Civic Arena isolated the Hill residents from downtown? Today, Bedford Avenue and Centre Avenue are both major arteries into downtown which run parallel to Wylie Avenue and take you to directly to the heart of downtown. Centre Avenue in particular has public transit stops all along it which deposit you in the middle of the downtown area.

If residents are upset about the displacement of those who lived or worked where the arena site was created, then I understand that completely. Still, that happened 60 years ago. But it's not as though cutting off one avenue made it impossible for residents to travel downtown. There are countless ways for someone to get to downtown from there. It may have inconvenienced people, but it's certainly not anywhere near the issue that the relocation of those residents was. Also, a huge part of the reason for the Hill's decline was the riots that occurred for over a week after Martin Luther King Jr was shot in 1968 that resulted in an enormous amount of property damage in that neighborhood. It was a tragedy that he was killed, but burning down the neighborhood in which you live solves nothing.

Here is a view of the Hill District from downtown, for people that don't live here. The Civic Arena is in the lower left, and the Hill District is just beyond it in the upper left. Bedford Avenue runs along the left side of the Hill and past the left side of the arena. Centre Avenue runs along the right side of the Hill, and past the right side of the arena. Wylie Avenue is the one that runs parallel to those, through the center of the Hill, with a bend in it shortly before it comes to a stop in the middle of the arena site.

I obviously wasn't around when all of this went on, but I have talked to my Dad and Grandfather about it and essentially what I've taken away from conversations with them is this.

Go to Shadyside. Take away Walnut St. What are you left with?

Go to Southside. Take away a huge chunk of E Carson St. What are you left with?


Wylie Ave was an artery into the Hill. It connected them to Downtown, and made transportation easier. I don't know what happened to transportation before the Civic Arena, but I do know that the construction of it didn't make anything easier. I also know that everything along Wylie Ave was demolished, and that a lot of the public housing was moved, which ran down other sections of the city. I want to say it was Hazelwood, maybe, who received a lot of the project housing?

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07-14-2012, 12:03 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I obviously wasn't around when all of this went on, but I have talked to my Dad and Grandfather about it and essentially what I've taken away from conversations with them is this.

Go to Shadyside. Take away Walnut St. What are you left with?

Go to Southside. Take away a huge chunk of E Carson St. What are you left with?


Wylie Ave was an artery into the Hill. It connected them to Downtown, and made transportation easier. I don't know what happened to transportation before the Civic Arena, but I do know that the construction of it didn't make anything easier. I also know that everything along Wylie Ave was demolished, and that a lot of the public housing was moved, which ran down other sections of the city. I want to say it was Hazelwood, maybe, who received a lot of the project housing?
Granted, all that they told you is true.

But what I said remains true as well. Given what we have seen in other similar communities that did not have an arena slammed right in the heart of it (though many had misguided urban 'renewal' projects of their own to deal with), if there had never been an arena built the hill would be exactly as it is right now. The arena was not the cause of what happened there, at worst it sped up by a small handful of years the inevitable.

Except if anything things would be worse. Much worse. That is not the most logical or even likely spot for an arena if the Pens had started from scratch. By the other sport's stadiums s on the North Side maybe which has easier access, or there would be no hockey at all. Right now the hill is getting some extremely tangible benfits, both directly, such as the agreement I mentioned in this thread earlier, first chance at jobs, half the jobs at the new hotel minority, new investment in the community including a long sought grocery store, and hand outs. And indirectly as businesses all around the arena do make money from visitors, which helps businesses and workers hired. None of that would be there. None. Malking the place even bleaker.


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07-14-2012, 12:14 AM
  #87
Jules Winnfield
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It connected them to Downtown, and made transportation easier.
What are you talking about? The Hill is directly connected to downtown through 5th Avenue and Centre.

This is such a moot point to even discuss. You're inferring as if the arena makes downtown inaccessible from the Hill, which can't be any further than the truth.

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07-14-2012, 12:23 AM
  #88
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What are you talking about? The Hill is directly connected to downtown through 5th Avenue and Centre.

This is such a moot point to even discuss. You're inferring as if the arena makes downtown inaccessible from the Hill, which can't be any further than the truth.
You are missing the main point he made. A street can be an artery to move vehicles, but it can also be the heart of the community. Like he said 'Go to Shadyside. Take away Walnut St. What are you left with? Go to Southside. Take away a huge chunk of E Carson St. What are you left with?' That was the main point he made, and it was a good one.

Imagine New Orleans without Bourbon Street would be more approriate. Wylie Avenue was the Bourbon Street of Pittsburgh. With a similar reputation and similar lure since the turn of the century. You can not remove it and not expect it to have an enormous effect.

I know a lot of ways to get from point A to point B in Shadyside and Southside without using Walnut Street or E. Carson Street. But none of them are the heart of those places, and having to move a few streets over to go around something is enough of an inconvenience to push people to go elsewhere.

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07-14-2012, 12:34 AM
  #89
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As I said, the decline was inevitable anyways for reasons I have gone into. But to ignore what was lost would be to lessen something that was truly great in our past. A good example of what was lost that few reading on this board even knew existed:


Wylie Avenue, 1932.

Sprawling over blocks, the Hill District overlooked downtown Pittsburgh. A predominantly Jewish neighborhood in the early twentieth century, the Hill District became one of the most energetic and powerful African American neighborhoods in the country from the 1930s to the 1950s. Variously called "the crossroads of the world" or "Fun City," the Hill District flourished as a center for business and art, and drew bustling crowds both day and night. The music scene this environment fostered rivalled that, at times, of the most groundbreaking cities in America.

Clubs and the Social Scene. . .

Wylie Avenue, 1932. In the 1940s and 1950s, Pittsburgh's Hill District became the definitive center for music and nightlife between New York City and Chicago.

Among many other talented musicians who frequented the Hill, jazz greats like Count Basie, Lena Horne, Dizzy Gillespie, Cab Calloway, Art Blakey, George Benson, Artie Shaw, Jack McDuff, Ahmad Jamal, Mary Louise, Sarah Vaughn, Billy Eckstein, Art Coltrain, Dexter Gordon, Errol Garner and Duke Ellington all came and played.


http://northbysouth.kenyon.edu/2000/Beauty/Crawford.htm

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07-14-2012, 12:45 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
You are missing the main point he made. A street can be an artery to move vehicles, but it can also be the heart of the community. Like he said 'Go to Shadyside. Take away Walnut St. What are you left with?
If you take away Walnut in Shadyside, you are left with Centre, South Highland, and Ellsworth.

There are two main roads to go from the Hill to Downtown, so I don't think taking away East Carson in the Southside is a fair example.

Take away Wylie and you still have Centre and 5th to Downtown. Furthermore, it's within walking distance to Downtown. On top of that, we're talking about the taking away of a road 50 years ago, with the area still having easy access to downtown. It seems a bit ridiculous IMO to focus on this as if it's a current major issue affecting the people living in the Hill.

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07-14-2012, 01:08 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
If you take away Walnut in Shadyside, you are left with Centre, South Highland, and Ellsworth.

There are two main roads to go from the Hill to Downtown, so I don't think taking away East Carson in the Southside is a fair example.

Take away Wylie and you still have Centre and 5th to Downtown. Furthermore, it's within walking distance to Downtown. On top of that, we're talking about the taking away of a road 50 years ago, with the area still having easy access to downtown. It seems a bit ridiculous IMO to focus on this as if it's a current major issue affecting the people living in the Hill.
You do not get that when you lose an iconic street that defines a neighborhood you lose more than a convenient artery from point A to point B? That if for whatever reason New Orleans lost Bourbon Street that they could try to move it all one street over but it would never be Bourbon Street with all that brings to mind when people think New Orleans?

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07-14-2012, 01:16 AM
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You do not get that when you lose an iconic street that defines a neighborhood you lose more than a convenient artery from point A to point B? That if for whatever reason New Orleans lost Bourbon Street that they could try to move it all one street over but it would never be Bourbon Street with all that brings to mind when people think New Orleans?
Yeah, it's not like it was just a road. They lost all of the businesses and cultural attractions as well, the heart of the district was ripped out, essentially. People would come for those businesses and venues, and as a result, frequent other smaller shops and local places. When the biggest attractions were gone, people stopped coming and every business, even the one's outside of the main area suffered for it. It's kind of like a mall losing its anchor stores, people came for those and hit the smaller shops since they were already there. Once the big stores are gone, the smaller shops start losing business too and eventually the whole place goes under.

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07-14-2012, 01:26 AM
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Yeah, it's not like it was just a road. They lost all of the businesses and cultural attractions as well, the heart of the district was ripped out, essentially. People would come for those businesses and venues, and as a result, frequent other smaller shops and local places. When the biggest attractions were gone, people stopped coming and every business, even the one's outside of the main area suffered for it. It's kind of like a mall losing its anchor stores, people came for those and hit the smaller shops since they were already there. Once the big stores are gone, the smaller shops start losing business too and eventually the whole place goes under.
Like I said though, the area still would be where it is today, if not worse, had the arena never gone there. I recognize what was lost, or at least the loss hastened, by the arena going where it did. But the forces which were driving the hill into the slum and destitute place that it is today were there no matter what happened with the arena and would have devestated the area by now anyways. People were moving in droves from the cities and the arena, and even the loss of Pittsburgh's Bourbon Street, however a great a loss that was to our city, did little to alter those forces either way.

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07-14-2012, 11:50 AM
  #94
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Sure Jesus told his followers they are the victims and they shouldnt work, just get freebies from those whom work hard. And they can do anything they want no matter how wrong it is.


Its in the New Lib Testeament page 666.


Wasnt there a North Side group trying to do same to the Steelers?
And why dont someone get something of the Pirates?


Anyway i wish the Arena wasnt there as i hate going into the city. Why must everything be so compacted?

Also is there any stores in Pittsburgh anymore? Cause really whats in Pittsburgh that anyone from the Hill wants to get too?

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07-14-2012, 12:19 PM
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Sure Jesus told his followers they are the victims and they shouldnt work, just get freebies from those whom work hard.

[removed Biblically ignorant diatribe]


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07-14-2012, 12:31 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by farscape1 View Post
Wasnt there a North Side group trying to do same to the Steelers?
And why dont someone get something of the Pirates?


Anyway i wish the Arena wasnt there as i hate going into the city. Why must everything be so compacted?

Also is there any stores in Pittsburgh anymore? Cause really whats in Pittsburgh that anyone from the Hill wants to get too?
"Is there any stores in Pittsburgh anymore?" That's an excellent question.

Why are cities so compact? I see that you have a strong grasp on history, architecture and a whole host of the other topics.

A better question is: Did your dad forget to switch off 104.7 before he put you down for the night?

Also, you really should learn about the basic tenets Christianity before you start ranting about it.


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07-14-2012, 12:33 PM
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What are you talking about? The Hill is directly connected to downtown through 5th Avenue and Centre.

This is such a moot point to even discuss. You're inferring as if the arena makes downtown inaccessible from the Hill, which can't be any further than the truth.
5th ave doesn't go through the Hill. It goes through Uptown, and then through Oakland. Center Ave doesn't go through the Hill. It borders it, but doesn't go through it. Wylie Ave goes right through the heart of the Hill district. It's directly in the middle. So any of those residents looking to get into the city on the northern side of the Hill, they have to walk all the way to the southern part to catch a bus on Center, or take more than one bus to get where they were going.

It's not a moot point at all. And I never said it made downtown inaccessible, but what did do is break up a huge traffic artery in the Hill. I mean, think about it in the Strip district on a Sunday when they shut down parts of the streets. Sure, I can get around just fine. It's just much more of a pain in the ass.

You also missed the point being made about Wylie being a street where a ton of business is in the Hill. That's part of the example of using Walnut St and E Carson. You take out those businesses on those streets and it'd cripple that section of the city. People wouldn't go there, and the area would lose a huge part of it's identity. That's what happened when they put the arena in. The Hill lost a ton of culture and revenue.

I also see this as someone looking for a freebee, but you can't overlook the fact that in the past, the city really screwed the Hill District residents over, which is why I have a problem with the Hill attacking the Pens. They Pens have nothing to do with this...the city does.


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07-14-2012, 12:35 PM
  #98
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we are already bordering on an annoying political debate. Let's not turn it religious too. When religion and politics are debated with anonymity, everybody loses.

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07-14-2012, 12:43 PM
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we are already bordering on an annoying political debate. Let's not turn it religious too. When religion and politics are debated with anonymity, everybody loses.
On the other hand, even though it veered slightly OT, giving some knowledge of the very rich history that we had right where the arena stands now was not a bad thing. Like I said, we had one of the most important centers of the start of Jazz Music in America, the most important between NYC and Chicago, right there where the arena stands. Along with all of the famous clubs and nightlife that went with that. I doubt many knew of it here and it was not that long ago. The thread was worth it to talk about that some.


But the point of the article that forms the basis for this thread is tangential to that, though only slightly so. Sadly I doubt one in a hundred of the people coming with their hands out, either with this group or in that community, know a thing about this history of theirs.

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07-14-2012, 12:45 PM
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There were a lot of other projects that impacted the Hill District in addition to the Civic Arena construction. The Crosstown Blvd, the closing of the Penn Incline, it all kind of turned the Hill into a fish bowl. Not many ways in, not many ways out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farscape1 View Post
Sure Jesus told his followers they are the victims and they shouldnt work, just get freebies from those whom work hard. And they can do anything they want no matter how wrong it is.

[Removed Biblically ignorant diatribe. ]
Why are you so hell-bent on turning this into some kind of religious debate? Go some place else if you want to do that.

In addition, your posts come off as the bizarre, incoherent ramblings of a shut-in.


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