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Shane Doan thread (Buccigross - The ridiculous offer is Buffalo's)

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:43 AM
  #101
Rob Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zbubble View Post
Gary Roberts and Mark Recchi both played till they were about 42-43. And they weren't completely washed up for those later years. I'd have taken either of those guys on the roster at 40.

Having Doan for four years starting at age 35 is not a worry for me. If he doesn't have to retire due to some injury by then, he'll still bring things to the table at 38 or 39.
7.5 million dollars of things to the table? Roberts and Recchi were exceptions to the norm, yet they certainly weren't worth $7.5 million dollars. The risk of being stuck with that hit should Doan not be an exception to the norm + a massive overpayment at the end of his career that you can't do anything to alleviate is such a huge risk.

Jagr didn't get near $7.5 million dollars and I'm quite sure Doan will not be better than Jagr at his age, plus his price tag came with no risk, which increases the relative value of his cost.

I doubt Doan gets the contract that's been reportedly offered because it's insane.

And for the record, I do believe his cap hit remains on the books even if he retires, but hopefully someone who knows for sure can chime in on that.

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07-14-2012, 01:31 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
7.5 million dollars of things to the table? Roberts and Recchi were exceptions to the norm, yet they certainly weren't worth $7.5 million dollars. The risk of being stuck with that hit should Doan not be an exception to the norm + a massive overpayment at the end of his career that you can't do anything to alleviate is such a huge risk.

Jagr didn't get near $7.5 million dollars and I'm quite sure Doan will not be better than Jagr at his age, plus his price tag came with no risk, which increases the relative value of his cost.

I doubt Doan gets the contract that's been reportedly offered because it's insane.

And for the record, I do believe his cap hit remains on the books even if he retires, but hopefully someone who knows for sure can chime in on that.
Looking at the ELCs we can expect to enjoy over the course of the hypothetical Doan contract, the cap budget would still be in decent shape especially if they scrub Leino. Certainly there is the opportunity cost of not being able to pursue many other UFAs during that time, but thats the debate we should be having.

I'd say the prospective 2-3-year-out roster already looks both deep and strong without any UFA additions, making medium UFA acquisitions similar to Leino not very useful, and blockbuster acquisitions simply unlikely due to the number of suitors, the prices they will be willing to go, and frankly the pre-determination of those types of UFAs these days. We can already prognosticate a massive forward logjam starting in 13-14, and perhaps even a defensive one as well. Having Doan rub off on our youngsters in the meantime would be gold, not to mention a darn good player for probably at least another couple of years. He could realistically make the difference between playoffs or no, or between round 1 and round 2. Moves that earn our youngsters more playoff experience during the rebuild can't be undervalued, as otherwise they'll eventually just have to waste some of the new core's prime time learning what they could start learning next season.

I'm aware that 7.5 is "too much" for those services, but I think there's a legitimate reason to wonder if there's anything that great that we'll have the opportunity to spend it on instead. The hypothetical contract would be off the books just as the new core enters its prime, anyways.

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07-14-2012, 01:45 AM
  #103
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7.5 @ 4 years for an 35 years old 50 point player? Have you lost your freakin' mind?

I can understand that you like what he brings to the table. I like Doan too. He would be a great leader. But at 7.5 per season? Don't we already have enough bad contracts?

I'd rather overpay on a trade for Getzlaf than signing a 35 year old rental at frakin 7.5 million dollar.

And if I look at next years UFA class, I'd rather overpay for one of the guys out there then. 2013/14 will be our year.

Vanek, Hodgson, Pominville, Girgs, Grigs, Armia, Stafford, Ennnis, Foligno, Leino, Gerbe
, Kaleta, Tropp Ott; Myers, McNabb, Pysyk, Erhoff, Sekera, Regehr, Leopold,
Sulzer, Weber

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Old
07-14-2012, 02:03 AM
  #104
Rob Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Looking at the ELCs we can expect to enjoy over the course of the hypothetical Doan contract, the cap budget would still be in decent shape especially if they scrub Leino. Certainly there is the opportunity cost of not being able to pursue many other UFAs during that time, but thats the debate we should be having.

I'd say the prospective 2-3-year-out roster already looks both deep and strong without any UFA additions, making medium UFA acquisitions similar to Leino not very useful, and blockbuster acquisitions simply unlikely due to the number of suitors, the prices they will be willing to go, and frankly the pre-determination of those types of UFAs these days. We can already prognosticate a massive forward logjam starting in 13-14, and perhaps even a defensive one as well. Having Doan rub off on our youngsters in the meantime would be gold, not to mention a darn good player for probably at least another couple of years. He could realistically make the difference between playoffs or no, or between round 1 and round 2. Moves that earn our youngsters more playoff experience during the rebuild can't be undervalued, as otherwise they'll eventually just have to waste some of the new core's prime time learning what they could start learning next season.

I'm aware that 7.5 is "too much" for those services, but I think there's a legitimate reason to wonder if there's anything that great that we'll have the opportunity to spend it on instead. The hypothetical contract would be off the books just as the new core enters its prime, anyways.
Again, it's not about the overpayment. It's about a very big overpayment that carries a ridiculous amount of risk due to the stringent rules relating to contracts signed by players over the age of 35. I wouldn't even be comfortable signing him for $5 million over 4 years.

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07-14-2012, 02:04 AM
  #105
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Do I love Shane Doan? Yes.

Do I love him for 7.5 million for 4 years? Haha no.

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07-14-2012, 02:05 AM
  #106
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As a quick side note ... Who has the list of UFA's for next summer?

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07-14-2012, 02:08 AM
  #107
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The vast majority of next years UFA class will not be UFAs when July 2nd rolls around. This team has hitched it's cart to the youth movement and what better way to help them then by bringing one of the leagues best leaders into the locker room. Also he's a 20 goal scorer against top line defenders and hits. Ya it's a lot for 4 years but I really don't see it holding us back when another batch of free agents signs in other city's.

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07-14-2012, 02:24 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
7.5 @ 4 years for an 35 years old 50 point player? Have you lost your freakin' mind?

I can understand that you like what he brings to the table. I like Doan too. He would be a great leader. But at 7.5 per season? Don't we already have enough bad contracts?

I'd rather overpay on a trade for Getzlaf than signing a 35 year old rental at frakin 7.5 million dollar.

And if I look at next years UFA class, I'd rather overpay for one of the guys out there then. 2013/14 will be our year.

Vanek, Hodgson, Pominville, Girgs, Grigs, Armia, Stafford, Ennnis, Foligno, Leino, Gerbe
, Kaleta, Tropp Ott; Myers, McNabb, Pysyk, Erhoff, Sekera, Regehr, Leopold,
Sulzer, Weber
Back up, breathe, think rationally. What is the specific opportunity cost of the hypothetical Doan contract? Who are the specific UFAs that you think will be available next year or in the subsequent relevant years that would both (A) help this team and (B) would realistically sign here. Keep in mind the recent league wide trend of most important players never reaching FA, and the ones that do going to hand-picked locations for reasons other than money (Richards, Parise, Suter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Again, it's not about the overpayment. It's about a very big overpayment that carries a ridiculous amount of risk due to the stringent rules relating to contracts signed by players over the age of 35. I wouldn't even be comfortable signing him for $5 million over 4 years.
I don't follow. If the numbers say that we won't need to jettison anyone of consequence even if we drag around a 7.5M 4th liner for 3 years, and the depth chart says we don't need any medium UFA acquisitions, and the likelyhood of being able to land the only possible opportunity cost (a blockbuster UFA in his prime) sometime in those 3 years is nearly zero... where is the risk?


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07-14-2012, 02:34 AM
  #109
Rob Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Back up, breathe, think rationally. What is the specific opportunity cost of the hypothetical Doan contract? Who are the specific UFAs that you think will be available next year or in the subsequent relevant years that would both (A) help this team and (B) would realistically sign here. Keep in mind the recent league wide trend of most important players never reaching FA, and the ones that do going to hand-picked locations for reasons other than money (Richards, Parise, Suter).
I understand you quoted two people but I don't see what any of this has to do with what you quoted from me. I didn't mention ability to sign other UFAs. I don't want to see a situation where you're stuck (legitimately stuck: can't bury in minors, can't do anything) with a player should he become marginal or worse down the line.

But to address this whole matter:

#1 We have our own players to worry about keeping and the new CBA will lower the amount of revenue players get, without question

#2 You talk about how UFAs are unrealistic to land when landing Doan is less realistic than any of the guys you mentioned. The difference is, when someone dreams about landing Parise or Richards they're dreaming about overpaying less than we'd be overpaying for Doan and of contracts that we could actually bite the bullet on and do something about when they become unsavory.

#3 There are players out there and always will be, in the UFA and trade market. Doan is not the end all be all perfect addition to be made and he certainly isn't within the context of his age and the 35+ contract provisions.

Further, the whole reason other UFAs get money at a $7.5 million cap hit is because the team is buying their prime years and is also fudging the cap a bit in later years of the deal. With Doan you're paying the same money for post-prime years, not fudging the cap at all, and have literally no recourse for dealing with his cap hit should it become necessary to do so. That makes two gigantic factors that multiply the overpayment beyond the obvious dollar-to-player value ratio.

This is all academic, though, as Buffalo is probably not even close to a team he would consider and Darcy was surely not the nut who offered him a 4 year contract.

Edit: You changed your post around and have addressed what you've quoted of me in specific:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I don't follow. If the numbers say that we won't need to jettison anyone of consequence even if we drag around a 7.5M 4th liner for 3 years, and the depth chart says we don't need any medium UFA acquisitions, and the likelyhood of being able to land the only possible opportunity cost (a blockbuster UFA in his prime) sometime in those 3 years is nearly zero... where is the risk?
#1 The numbers say next to nothing. We don't know what the cap will be and we only have a general concept of what our figure would be.

#2 Shane Doan is not a blockbuster UFA and he is not in his prime.

#3 Shane Doan is less likely to be interested in Buffalo than many other worthwhile UFA players

#4 Adding to your team does not revolve around signing the "best blockbuster UFA" available in a given offseason

#5 The risk has been spelled out quite clearly and is just simply inherently obvious with how contracts for players aged 35 or older work. Regarding just how much an overpayment this is, when you consider what a $7.5 cap hit for an actual prime-aged player is relative to Shane Doan, I've addressed above.


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07-14-2012, 02:54 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by zbubble View Post
Gary Roberts and Mark Recchi both played till they were about 42-43. And they weren't completely washed up for those later years. I'd have taken either of those guys on the roster at 40.

Having Doan for four years starting at age 35 is not a worry for me. If he doesn't have to retire due to some injury by then, he'll still bring things to the table at 38 or 39.
Every year from the time they were like 35 they played for a new contract, and it was at about 25% of the cap ceiling at the most. We are talking about handing Doan a 4 year deal at about 75% of the cap ceiling. It's a considerable risk and dare I say a history making contract if it takes place. Has any player at about 35 ever been given a 4 year deal worth that kind of money?! I don't even think Lemieux or Gretzky were treated with that kind of commitment, who the **** is Doan to demand that kind of loyalty with that kind of milage on a pair of skates? He's scored only 39 even strength goals over the past 3 years, that's 13 ****ing even strength goals a season and we want to treat him like he's Crosby in his prime? lol Look at how badly the Leino deal can hamstring a teams salary, that's only 4.5/year.

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07-14-2012, 03:17 AM
  #111
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I use the Drury example. At 31 we were ready to sign him to a 7 year 7+ per contract and have him retire a Sabre. At the time this deal sounded awesome, and it probably would have been for a couple years, but when a player is 34-35 its pretty unpredictable, and even a player who has been healthy like Drury injuries came quick and ended his career.

So there is a risk. But I like risks. Risks win you cups, but can also lose them, thats why they are risks. Doan is everything the Sabres need at this point. So I would be all for it.

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07-14-2012, 04:12 AM
  #112
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On the age thing, I've been against Iginla because of his age for 5 years now. Five years later he's still performing, Selanne too. This is no proof of Doan but like the guy above me said "risks are how you win cups".

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07-14-2012, 04:23 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
who the **** is Doan to demand that kind of loyalty with that kind of milage on a pair of skates? He's scored only 39 even strength goals over the past 3 years, that's 13 ****ing even strength goals a season and we want to treat him like he's Crosby in his prime? lol Look at how badly the Leino deal can hamstring a teams salary, that's only 4.5/year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
I use the Drury example. At 31 we were ready to sign him to a 7 year 7+ per contract and have him retire a Sabre. At the time this deal sounded awesome, and it probably would have been for a couple years, but when a player is 34-35 its pretty unpredictable, and even a player who has been healthy like Drury injuries came quick and ended his career.

So there is a risk. But I like risks. Risks win you cups, but can also lose them, thats why they are risks. Doan is everything the Sabres need at this point. So I would be all for it.

Pllay4 you make it sound as though Doan is holding us hostage!!! In fact WE are pursuing him so be clear about that. He is not seeking us out and that means overpay for free agent. Leino's deal is horrible I'll give you that unless of course he starts producing in his second year with us.

I agree with SabresAreScaryGood. It is a risk. One worth taking! Doan was a freaking beast in the playoffs. We didn't get to participate in them. Doan is worth every dollar we would give him as we will make the playoffs and be a force for the cup.

42 year old Temmu Selane signed a new one year deal @ 4.2 mil or something like that and some team will sign Dom. Thankfully not us but beside it all it's not my money I dont reallly give a **** what these insane owners pay the players. It's not my money although as a season ticket holder I shoulg have a say. And my say is only if i renew or not. I did as I think 15,499 or so others did also. There is a new bottom line here now. Win the cup. No more make the playoffs,
I want to WIN!!

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07-14-2012, 04:30 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
On the age thing, I've been against Iginla because of his age for 5 years now. Five years later he's still performing, Selanne too. This is no proof of Doan but like the guy above me said "risks are how you win cups".
Look at Chris Drury. Very similar players, and I consider the risk very close to what the Rangers risked by giving Drury a 7 year deal. Except that Doan's contract wouldn't be able to be bought out. Drury hit a wall, hard, at age 33, putting up a point total in the thirties, and then even worse (with injuries as a factor) at 34 in 2011-12. After that he never played in the league again.

Shane Doan is not Teemu Selanne or Jarome Iginla. He has nowhere near the hands and skills. When he loses a step, the decline is likely to be severe, and the team that signs him for 4 years is going to have nowhere to stash him and no ability to buy him out like the Rangers could Drury. 4 yrs/30 mil is flat out insane. I can't believe that anyone would be willing to throw that kind of money at him. Those that are are welcome to hiim.

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Old
07-14-2012, 05:29 AM
  #115
Rob Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerme1 View Post
Pllay4 you make it sound as though Doan is holding us hostage!!! In fact WE are pursuing him so be clear about that. He is not seeking us out and that means overpay for free agent. Leino's deal is horrible I'll give you that unless of course he starts producing in his second year with us.

I agree with SabresAreScaryGood. It is a risk. One worth taking! Doan was a freaking beast in the playoffs. We didn't get to participate in them. Doan is worth every dollar we would give him as we will make the playoffs and be a force for the cup.

42 year old Temmu Selane signed a new one year deal @ 4.2 mil or something like that and some team will sign Dom. Thankfully not us but beside it all it's not my money I dont reallly give a **** what these insane owners pay the players. It's not my money although as a season ticket holder I shoulg have a say. And my say is only if i renew or not. I did as I think 15,499 or so others did also. There is a new bottom line here now. Win the cup. No more make the playoffs,
I want to WIN!!
42 year old Selanne signed a one year deal, exactly. His past 3 contracts were 1 year deals. Before that he got a 2 year deal. This is a guy who scored WELL over a PPG average the 3 years previous to that 2 year deal. This is the point. These guys don't get long deals because it needs to be taken year by year. You don't know at what point it all goes south and you don't want to be handcuffed by the 35 y/o contract stipulations.

Nevermind that Doan at his best isn't half the player Selanne is now at 42. Selanne is a frickin 1st ballot Hall of Famer. The man scored 76 goals as a rookie. Hasek is the best goaltender of all-time and he's asking for a 2 year deal but just watch and see that not happen. He may not even get a deal. This isn't just about "how long can he remain productive" because if the 35+ contract rules weren't in place it wouldn't be much different than taking a risk on an inconsistent young player hoping he'll improve. Take that same young player and then make it so that if he doesn't improve, you're stuck with an ineffective player that you can't buy out or bury in the minors. I think even if Doan retires his cap hit stays on the books.

I honestly don't even believe this 4/$30m report because, well, it's just such a bad idea. This isn't about Doan. It would have been a bad idea to sign Selanne to this contract 4 years ago because there would have been no way of knowing for sure that he'd still be playing and effective over those 4 years. Nevermind that his 3 1 year contracts were for only ~$4.5m and his 2 year deal previous to that was for ~$2.5m. But Doan deserves a 4 year risk @ $7.5m? No frickin way. And I do very much want Doan on this team. I made a strong argument in his favor in the Summer Moves thread when his name first came up. But I said max 2 years and I'm sticking to that. 2 years should be the max you go with any 35+ y/o player due to CBA rules.


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07-14-2012, 07:19 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post

Nevermind that Doan at his best isn't half the player Selanne is now at 42. Selanne is a frickin 1st ballot Hall of Famer. The man scored 76 goals as a rookie. Hasek is the best goaltender of all-time and he's asking for a 2 year deal but just watch and see that not happen. He may not even get a deal. This isn't just about "how long can he remain productive" because if the 35+ contract rules weren't in place it wouldn't be much different than taking a risk on an inconsistent young player hoping he'll improve. Take that same young player and then make it so that if he doesn't improve, you're stuck with an ineffective player that you can't buy out or bury in the minors. I think even if Doan retires his cap hit stays on the books.
Look, I think Selanne is a tremendous player and remarkably still effective at such an advanced age but the bolded is a bit absurd. "Half the player"? Really? Last season Doan had only 12 less points while also registering 205 hits and killed penalties. Not even mentioning Selanne's playing with Getzlaf and Perry. The top two offensive players for Phoenix were Whitney and Vrbata. Hardly comparable. Only 28% of Doan's points came on the PP where Selanne got 42% of his points with the man advantage.

Granted Selanne is 42, but you said Doan's not half the player now. Right now, Doan is on the ice at least 1:30 more per game because he's used in all situations. He's also much more physical and arguably not that much less offensively effective.

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07-14-2012, 07:45 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
Look, I think Selanne is a tremendous player and remarkably still effective at such an advanced age but the bolded is a bit absurd. "Half the player"? Really? Last season Doan had only 12 less points while also registering 205 hits and killed penalties. Not even mentioning Selanne's playing with Getzlaf and Perry. The top two offensive players for Phoenix were Whitney and Vrbata. Hardly comparable. Only 28% of Doan's points came on the PP where Selanne got 42% of his points with the man advantage.

Granted Selanne is 42, but you said Doan's not half the player now. Right now, Doan is on the ice at least 1:30 more per game because he's used in all situations. He's also much more physical and arguably not that much less offensively effective.
It was a bit absurd because it was willful hyperbole.

However:
The majority of Selanne's even strength ice time comes with a 37 year old Saku Koivu, not Getzlaf and Perry. Whitney and Verbata are easily better than his typical line. He scores a lot of PP points not just because of the talent he plays with on the unit, but because he's an exceptional offensive hockey player and still the better offensive hockey player.

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07-14-2012, 08:07 AM
  #118
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It was a bit absurd because it was willful hyperbole.

However:
The majority of Selanne's even strength ice time comes with a 37 year old Saku Koivu, not Getzlaf and Perry. Whitney and Verbata are easily better than his typical line. He scores a lot of PP points not just because of the talent he plays with on the unit, but because he's an exceptional offensive hockey player and still the better offensive hockey player.
Teemu is arguably slightly more effective offensively at this point and is obviously advantaged by playing on a PP with Getzlaf and Perry. But Selanne offers nothing after that. I would easily pay more for Doan than Selanne right now. He may not be as skilled as Selanne, but he's more effective and the better overall hockey player right now. That's far from "half the player at his best"; hyperbole or not.

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07-14-2012, 09:18 AM
  #119
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As a quick side note ... Who has the list of UFA's for next summer?
Player Pos Team Age Cap Hit Expiry

Iginla, Jarome R CGY 35 $7,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Timonen, Kimmo D PHI 37 $6,333,333 2013 (UFA)
Backstrom, Niklas G MIN 34 $6,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Elias, Patrik C NJD 36 $6,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Visnovsky, Lubomir D NYI 35 $5,600,000 2013 (UFA)
Gonchar, Sergei D OTT 38 $5,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Perry, Corey R ANA 27 $5,325,000 2013 (UFA)
Getzlaf, Ryan C ANA 27 $5,325,000 2013 (UFA)
Ribeiro, Mike C WAS 32 $5,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Thomas, Tim G BOS 38 $5,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Alfredsson, Daniel R OTT 39 $4,875,000 2013 (UFA)
Connolly, Tim C TOR 31 $4,750,000 2013 (UFA)
McDonald, Andy C STL 34 $4,700,000 2013 (UFA)
Jagr, Jaromir R DAL 40 $4,550,000 2013 (UFA)
Selanne, Teemu R ANA 42 $4,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Hainsey, Ron D WIN 31 $4,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Lupul, Joffrey L TOR 28 $4,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Hartnell, Scott L PHI 30 $4,200,000 2013 (UFA)
Fisher, Mike C NAS 32 $4,200,000 2013 (UFA)
Morrow, Brenden L DAL 33 $4,100,000 2013 (UFA)
Streit, Mark D NYI 34 $4,100,000 2013 (UFA)
Bouchard, Pierre-Marc R MIN 28 $4,080,000 2013 (UFA)
Antropov, Nik C WIN 32 $4,062,500 2013 (UFA)
Regehr, Robyn D BUF 32 $4,020,000 2013 (UFA)
Horton, Nathan R BOS 27 $4,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Roy, Derek C DAL 29 $4,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Whitney, Ryan D EDM 29 $4,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Zidlicky, Marek D NJD 35 $4,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Zajac, Travis C NJD 27 $3,887,500 2013 (UFA)
Koivu, Saku C ANA 37 $3,800,000 2013 (UFA)
Cervenka, Roman C CGY 26 $3,775,000 2013 (UFA)
Enstrom, Tobias D WIN 27 $3,750,000 2013 (UFA)
Khabibulin, Nikolai G EDM 39 $3,750,000 2013 (UFA)
Clowe, Ryane L SAN 29 $3,625,000 2013 (UFA)
Lehtonen, Kari G DAL 28 $3,550,000 2013 (UFA)
Cullen, Matt C MIN 35 $3,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Lombardi, Matthew C TOR 30 $3,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Gagne, Simon L LAK 32 $3,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Hamrlik, Roman D WAS 38 $3,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Ryder, Michael R DAL 32 $3,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Zubrus, Dainius C NJD 34 $3,400,000 2013 (UFA)
Scuderi, Rob D LAK 33 $3,400,000 2013 (UFA)
Penner, Dustin L LAK 29 $3,250,000 2013 (UFA)
MacArthur, Clarke L TOR 27 $3,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Edler, Alexander D VAN 26 $3,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Weiss, Stephen C FLA 29 $3,100,000 2013 (UFA)
Armstrong, Colby R MTL 29 $3,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Leopold, Jordan D BUF 31 $3,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Filppula, Valtteri L DET 28 $3,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Lydman, Toni D ANA 34 $3,000,000 2013 (UFA)
White, Ian D DET 28 $2,875,000 2013 (UFA)
Poti, Tom D WAS 35 $2,875,000 2013 (UFA)
Cleary, Danny L DET 33 $2,800,000 2013 (UFA)
Nabokov, Evgeni G NYI 36 $2,750,000 2013 (UFA)
Clarkson, David R NJD 28 $2,666,667 2013 (UFA)
Sullivan, Steve L PHO 38 $2,600,000 2013 (UFA)
Prospal, Vinny L CLB 37 $2,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Handzus, Michal C SAN 35 $2,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Malhotra, Manny C VAN 32 $2,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Murray, Douglas D SAN 32 $2,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Babchuk, Anton D CGY 28 $2,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Brouwer, Troy L WAS 26 $2,350,000 2013 (UFA)
Raymond, Mason L VAN 26 $2,275,000 2013 (UFA)
Aucoin, Adrian D CLB 39 $2,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Howard, Jimmy G DET 28 $2,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Ference, Andrew D BOS 33 $2,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Smid, Ladislav D EDM 26 $2,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Burrows, Alexandre R VAN 31 $2,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Corvo, Joe D CAR 35 $2,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Smith, Mike G PHO 30 $2,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Hejduk, Milan R COL 36 $2,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Pardy, Adam D BUF 28 $2,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Higgins, Chris L VAN 29 $1,900,000 2013 (UFA)
Cooke, Matt L PIT 33 $1,800,000 2013 (UFA)
Ponikarovsky, Alexei L WIN 32 $1,800,000 2013 (UFA)
O'Byrne, Ryan D COL 27 $1,800,000 2013 (UFA)
Sutton, Andy D EDM 37 $1,750,000 2013 (UFA)
Fedotenko, Ruslan L PHI 33 $1,750,000 2013 (UFA)
Torres, Raffi L PHO 30 $1,750,000 2013 (UFA)
Walker, Matt D PHI 32 $1,700,000 2013 (UFA)
Larose, Chad R CAR 30 $1,700,000 2013 (UFA)
Wellwood, Kyle C WIN 29 $1,600,000 2013 (UFA)
Bouillon, Francis D MTL 36 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Dupuis, Pascal R PIT 33 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Mason, Chris G NAS 36 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Erskine, John D WAS 32 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Bozak, Tyler C TOR 26 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Langenbrunner, Jamie R STL 36 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Theodore, Jose G FLA 35 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Jones, Ryan R EDM 28 $1,500,000 2013 (UFA)
Nystrom, Eric L DAL 29 $1,400,000 2013 (UFA)
Miettinen, Antti L WIN 32 $1,351,293 2013 (UFA)
Brunner, Damien R DET 26 $1,350,000 2013 (UFA)
Klein, Kevin D NAS 27 $1,350,000 2013 (UFA)
Reasoner, Marty C NYI 35 $1,350,000 2013 (UFA)
Gordon, Boyd C PHO 28 $1,325,000 2013 (UFA)
Garon, Mathieu G TBL 34 $1,300,000 2013 (UFA)
Comeau, Blake L CGY 26 $1,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Labarbera, Jason G PHO 32 $1,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Giguere, Jean-Sebastien G COL 35 $1,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Kobasew, Chuck R COL 30 $1,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Clitsome, Grant D WIN 27 $1,250,000 2013 (UFA)
Alberts, Andrew D VAN 31 $1,225,000 2013 (UFA)
Richardson, Brad R LAK 27 $1,175,000 2013 (UFA)
Budaj, Peter G MTL 29 $1,150,000 2013 (UFA)
Lundin, Mike D OTT 27 $1,150,000 2013 (UFA)
Emery, Ray G CHI 29 $1,150,000 2013 (UFA)
Steckel, David C TOR 30 $1,100,000 2013 (UFA)
Shelley, Jody L PHI 36 $1,100,000 2013 (UFA)
Orr, Colton R TOR 30 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Boyes, Brad R NYI 30 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Armstrong, Colby R MTL 29 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Lapierre, Maxim C VAN 27 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Nihlstorp, Christopher G DAL 28 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Fasth, Viktor G ANA 29 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Bergeron, Marc-Andre D TBL 31 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)
Crombeen, B.J. R TBL 27 $1,000,000 2013 (UFA)

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Old
07-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #120
Sabretip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
7.5 @ 4 years for an 35 years old 50 point player? Have you lost your freakin' mind?

I can understand that you like what he brings to the table. I like Doan too. He would be a great leader. But at 7.5 per season?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
On the age thing, I've been against Iginla because of his age for 5 years now. Five years later he's still performing, Selanne too. This is no proof of Doan but like the guy above me said "risks are how you win cups".
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Originally Posted by beerme1 View Post
42 year old Temmu Selane signed a new one year deal @ 4.2 mil or something like that
Selanne led the Ducks in scoring last season, despite his age - and while his passion is similar to that of Doan and Iginla, let's remember that he plays a different style of game that demands less wear and tear on his body.

That said, count me into the camp that thinks Doan for long-term AND big dollars is not the smart route to go. Either give him a big paycheck ($6M) on a short-term (1-2 years) deal or give him the long-term security of a 4-5 year deal but at much more reasonable $3.5M - 4M cap hit.

Overall, there is some merit to the arguments Bulldog was making on WGR yesterday - bringing in a veteran leader and true professional like Doan into the locker room now, while the Sabres are infusing a new wave of young core players under the age of 23 (Hodgson, Ennis, Myers, Foligno, Girgensons, McNabb) could be an investment in really establishing a new "culture", similar to what Briere/Drury helped do in their short tenures. Based on that, I can look past fact that Doan will be 36 this year.

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Old
07-14-2012, 11:18 AM
  #121
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Regier had no deep thoughts about a report out of Phoenix that an unnamed Eastern Conference team had offered Coyotes captain Shane Doan a four-year, $30-million free-agent contract. Regier has made no secret about his desire to add Doan to the roster but it's believed the Pittsburgh Penguins and Philadelphia Flyers are among more than a dozen teams also interested - many of whom need to spend large chunks of money to reach the salary cap floor.
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/sa...ece?sabrespace

Quote:
Regier has pursued veteran winger Shane Doan, arguably the best unrestricted free agent left. A Phoenix radio station reported Friday an Eastern Conference club has offered Doan a four-year, $30 million contract.

Weve expressed an interest, and as far as offers Im not going to comment, Regier said.

Regier has said hed like to add a veteran center.

Its something were looking at, he said. Its a very limited marketplace right now. Were looking at the possibility of trades. But if it doesnt happen, were comfortable with the group we have.
http://niagara-gazette.com/prosports...res?sabrespace

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07-14-2012, 11:21 AM
  #122
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And there it is ... "We're comfortable with the group we have".

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Old
07-14-2012, 11:51 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
#1 The numbers say next to nothing. We don't know what the cap will be and we only have a general concept of what our figure would be.
The only major uncertainty at this point is the CBA, which is not to be ignored but is not the end of the world. The teams near the ceiling right now won't agree to anything that puts them drastically over the top. We basically know what the cap hits of our existing players will be, and know that it would be highly unlikely to resign or replace players like Vanek, Miller, and Poms (when the time comes) at a higher cap than those players are at right now. We know what ELCs we have over that time, and we know what matters of recourse we have available to us (bury Leino, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
#2 Shane Doan is not a blockbuster UFA and he is not in his prime.
Didn't say he was, I said the opportunity cost of signing him would be the ability to to pursue a blockbuster UFA in his prime during the next four years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
#3 Shane Doan is less likely to be interested in Buffalo than many other worthwhile UFA players

...

#2 You talk about how UFAs are unrealistic to land when landing Doan is less realistic than any of the guys you mentioned. The difference is, when someone dreams about landing Parise or Richards they're dreaming about overpaying less than we'd be overpaying for Doan and of contracts that we could actually bite the bullet on and do something about when they become unsavory.
I disagree, the difference is that with the top-tier UFAs (Richards, Parise, Suter, etc), everyone will be willing to go to nearly the same price, which would make it impossible for us to stand out. Doan is a player where obviously someone has gone to a price no one else is willing to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
#4 Adding to your team does not revolve around signing the "best blockbuster UFA" available in a given offseason
Never said it was, in fact I've been saying the opposite by reminding everyone how unlikely it is that the wonderful 7.5M everyone wants to bank likely won't be able to be used on a Getzlaf or similar. Doan is not the best UFA this year but he is the one most useful to this team IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
#5 The risk has been spelled out quite clearly and is just simply inherently obvious with how contracts for players aged 35 or older work. Regarding just how much an overpayment this is, when you consider what a $7.5 cap hit for an actual prime-aged player is relative to Shane Doan, I've addressed above.
I know that the risk is that we lug around a 7.5M 4th liner for several seasons. All of my posts in this thread have been towards the purpose of discussing what, precisely, are the consequences if that happens. I still have not seen anyone post any reason to believe that the hypothetical contract would lead to a roster implosion or jeopardize the new core in any way.

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #124
Rhett4
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
And there it is ... "We're comfortable with the group we have".
I've been dreading that statement.

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Old
07-14-2012, 12:27 PM
  #125
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Anyone trying to rationalize the 7.5M cap hit for Shane freaking Doan has gone completely insane. Doan didnt deserve that when he was 28, much less 35. The guy is a strong 2nd line winger that plays the game the right way, but he is in no way elite, and does not deserve more than 5mil at his age

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