HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

NHL Proposal to NHLPA...first shot.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-14-2012, 02:01 AM
  #51
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
I wonder if they could ever go no cap but still limit the % players get to a negotiated %.


Or at least a hybrid %HRR/luxury tax scenario. Have a soft cap, with a luxury tax, and revenue sharing is done by teams who want to go "full retard" but, at the end of the day, players still get a set % of HRR.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:16 AM
  #52
Squiffy
Victims, rn't we all
 
Squiffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I wonder if they could ever go no cap but still limit the % players get to a negotiated %.


Or at least a hybrid %HRR/luxury tax scenario. Have a soft cap, with a luxury tax, and revenue sharing is done by teams who want to go "full retard" but, at the end of the day, players still get a set % of HRR.
If you somehow set a tax that went straight into HRR calculated on maintaining a set %, the math should be there I think. The numbers swirling in my mind say that that wouldn't be much of a penalty for exceeding a soft cap with 3.2 billion HRR, so maybe the rest into sharing. Could really love that, but it's just not on the table.

__________________
bWo: If you don't know, you should know... Buds WORLD Order Constitution
Adj: "Squiffy" - stupefied by a chemical substance (esp. alcohol)

R.I.P. Darryl buddy... it was too soon.. too soon
Squiffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:17 AM
  #53
edwardslane
Registered User
 
edwardslane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 962
vCash: 500
the 5 year ELC won't work at all.. Why would the next big russian Ala Yakupov,Malkin or Ovechkin Sign with an NHL team for 900k with no bonuses for 5 years when they could sign in the KHL and make 3+ million a season..

Yes the NHL is the best league in the world but seriously.. that's a difference of potentially 15 million dollars with those numbers being used.

Even a north american player could sign in the KHL at 19 years of age and play there until he's 22-23 then come over to the NHL when the money would be comparative.

The NHL needs to be careful with how they work those ELC's.

My proposition? Owners want to control salaries and control of players for a longer period of time understandably.

ELC stay 3 years in length : player X signs at 18-21 have max value of contract at X $$$ based on the new cap.. with no more bonuses allowed it should be > than the current maximum of .900 lets say of 1.5 million ish

RFA status is currently from age 21-26. This is where certain players like Stamkos received huge raise. if teams want more control over keeping players at a manageable cap hit what they could do is break RFA into two pay catagories.

RFA 1 from age 21-24 where the max salary would be X again.. lets say 4-5 million per year the stamoks/crosby/ovechkin type players get this money.

RFA 2 age 24-28 lets assume the new UFA age is 28. so 4 years of RFA 2 status where you can make league maximum ( no single player can take up more than 20% of a teams total cap space isng it?) Once again reserved for the crosby type players.

then UFA status at age 28.. players sign for what they can get on the open market from respective teams.

The numbers i'm using are random and would have to be worked out based on the cap and such to make sense. This would keep players salaries reasonable for a longer period of time and teams that drafted well.. Like the oilers wouldn't have to dismantle their teams 4-5 years after drafting everyone because all the players are looking for 7+ million a season.


Last edited by edwardslane: 07-14-2012 at 02:31 AM.
edwardslane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:19 AM
  #54
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
I spoke with a friend of mine who is an agent, and they players are 100% behind Fehr, they think he's the right man for the job and they feel the owners (especially Bettman) are retards who don't know how to run a business.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:22 AM
  #55
Squiffy
Victims, rn't we all
 
Squiffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I spoke with a friend of mine who is an agent, and they players are 100% behind Fehr, they think he's the right man for the job and they feel the owners (especially Bettman) are retards who don't know how to run a business.
They're right.. problem is, they run the business.

Squiffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:22 AM
  #56
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardslane View Post
the 5 year ELC won't work at all.. Why would the next big russian Ala Yakupov,Malkin or Ovechkin Sign with an NHL team for 900k with no bonuses for 5 years when they could sign in the KHL and make 3+ million a season..

Yes the NHL is the best league in the world but seriously.. that's a difference of potentially 15 million dollars with those numbers being used.

I player could sign in the KHL at 19 years of age and play there until he's 22-23 then come over to the NHL when the money would be comparative.

The NHL needs to be careful with how they work those ELC's
A 5 year ELC will be terrible for elite players who can get into the league at 18 but are good for prospects who need time to develop. I always thought a 4 year ELC made some sense but maybe tweak the bonus structure to benefit time in the NHL.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:30 AM
  #57
HellasLEAF
Komarov has cometh..
 
HellasLEAF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Greece
Posts: 11,380
vCash: 500
if my hockey pools don't start on time I'll flip right out. RIGHT OUT!!

Get these losers back in the meeting room until **** happens!

HellasLEAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:34 AM
  #58
number72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kb21 View Post
when the season become a doubt both sides will then start to negotiate, the first offers are always outta whack. i still believe the season will start on time.
But will Howson trade Nash first or will the players/owners reach a new CBA earlier.

number72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:37 AM
  #59
edwardslane
Registered User
 
edwardslane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
A 5 year ELC will be terrible for elite players who can get into the league at 18 but are good for prospects who need time to develop. I always thought a 4 year ELC made some sense but maybe tweak the bonus structure to benefit time in the NHL.
I agree.. I edited my post afterwards to include a bit more perspective. 3 years up to 4 years could work if like you said they restructure the pay scale a bit. 4 years at 900k isn't enough when players can get wayyy more in the KHL.

Imagine is Mackinnon decided to play in the KHL for 4 years for 5 million per season. He's the type of prospect that could get that type of money.

Why play in the NHL for 3.6 million Taxed at 40-45% when i can play in russia and make 20 million at a lower tax rate?

here's some info on russian tax laws..



Last partial update, May 2012.
Russia has a uniform rate of tax on the income of individuals. As of 2012 tax in Russia is payable at the rate of 13% for an individual on most income. (non-residents 30%). Russian residents pay 9% on dividend income. (Deduction at source).
Non-residents pay 15% on dividend income.
Exemptions are granted to certain income earners.
The standard rate of Russia corporate profit tax in 2012 is 20%.
Companies pay 9% tax on dividend income. Under certain terms dividend income received by companies with holding of 50% or more is entitled to participation exemption.
Russia Income Tax for an Individual
An individual is liable for tax on his income as an employee and on income as a self-employed person. Tax will be payable on income earned in Russia and overseas by an individual who meets the test of a "permanent resident" of Russia.
A foreign resident who is employed in Russia pays tax only on income earned in Russia.
To be considered a Russian resident, residence must be established of at least 183 days in Russia during 12 months in a calendar year.
An employer is obligated to deduct, immediately, each month, the amount of tax and national insurance due from a salaried worker.
A self-employed individual is obligated to make advance payments on income tax that will be offset on filing an annual report. In the case of a new business, the advance payments will be calculated on the basis of the business owner's estimate. The advance payments will be made at least 3 times in each year.
Certain payments are deductible from taxable income as detailed below.

edwardslane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:38 AM
  #60
A1LeafNation
Thanks Boston.
 
A1LeafNation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,952
vCash: 500
The PA would be STUPID to give into anything!



The NHL is either making money OR they failed in the cities they put the NHL teams in. They cant have it both ways.



The NHL has to start by the winter classic or they will be under fire if they miss that Wngs/Leafs game. (I actually think this could be the first game of the season)



If Im the PA I give into nothing until January, and then see where things go. The NHL has a deadline imo, the PA doesn't.

A1LeafNation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:39 AM
  #61
-DeMo-
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Huntsville Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,363
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to -DeMo-
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardslane View Post
the 5 year ELC won't work at all.. Why would the next big russian Ala Yakupov,Malkin or Ovechkin Sign with an NHL team for 900k with no bonuses for 5 years when they could sign in the KHL and make 3+ million a season..

Yes the NHL is the best league in the world but seriously.. that's a difference of potentially 15 million dollars with those numbers being used.

I player could sign in the KHL at 19 years of age and play there until he's 22-23 then come over to the NHL when the money would be comparative.

The NHL needs to be careful with how they work those ELC's
I would assume since they're talking about taking out bonuses that they would up the base salary for the top drafted players to something like 2 million or something which is more than most get now anyways, considering the past contracts was something like 900k base + 850 for stuff like games played, certain number of points and then up to 2 million more if they win a performance award which players on ELC rarely get. so most don't earn more then 1.8 million now.

-DeMo- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:40 AM
  #62
number72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardslane View Post
the 5 year ELC won't work at all.. Why would the next big russian Ala Yakupov,Malkin or Ovechkin Sign with an NHL team for 900k with no bonuses for 5 years when they could sign in the KHL and make 3+ million a season..

Yes the NHL is the best league in the world but seriously.. that's a difference of potentially 15 million dollars with those numbers being used.

Even a north american player could sign in the KHL at 19 years of age and play there until he's 22-23 then come over to the NHL when the money would be comparative.

The NHL needs to be careful with how they work those ELC's.

My proposition? Owners want to control salaries and control of players for a longer period of time understandably.

ELC stay 3 years in length : player X signs at 18-21 have max value of contract at X $$$ based on the new cap.. with no more bonuses allowed it should be > than the current maximum of .900 lets say of 1.5 million ish

RFA status is currently from age 21-26. This is where certain players like Stamkos received huge raise. if teams want more control over keeping players at a manageable cap hit what they could do is break RFA into two pay catagories.

RFA 1 from age 21-24 where the max salary would be X again.. lets say 4-5 million per year the stamoks/crosby/ovechkin type players get this money.

RFA 2 age 24-28 lets assume the new UFA age is 28. so 4 years of RFA 2 status where you can make league maximum ( no single player can take up more than 20% of a teams total cap space isng it?) Once again reserved for the crosby type players.

then UFA status at age 28.. players sign for what they can get on the open market from respective teams.

The numbers i'm using are random and would have to be worked out based on the cap and such to make sense. This would keep players salaries reasonable for a longer period of time and teams that drafted well.. Like the oilers wouldn't have to dismantle their teams 4-5 years after drafting everyone because all the players are looking for 7+ million a season.
If the owners want to alter the RFA terms, the players should push for no more drafts. That is, players pick the teams they want to play for much like you interview if they are "committing" to a multi-year ELC.

number72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:42 AM
  #63
Fan of The Game
Registered User
 
Fan of The Game's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,231
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Fan of The Game
Just when I thought there may be hope for a deal in August, owners pull this. I like a lot of stuff in this proposal but the players will never take it. Will be very interested in what the players counter with.

Fan of The Game is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:44 AM
  #64
Quik
Agent 0091
 
Quik's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Unknown
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,890
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
A 5 year ELC will be terrible for elite players who can get into the league at 18 but are good for prospects who need time to develop. I always thought a 4 year ELC made some sense but maybe tweak the bonus structure to benefit time in the NHL.
Or maybe bring back some kind of mutual option where the 4th year of the ELC would be optional, in the sense that if the player declines it, they delay their UFA clock by one more year and there's a cap of $xx (7.5% of the cap?). Otherwise they'd play out the full 4 years of their ELC and go by the NHL's guidelines on UFA status. (Maybe push UFA status back by 2 years? 1 may not be enough of a deterrent since players are usually compensated well enough after their ECLs are up anyways).

I've always liked the MLB's way of enforcing low-service players having no control on their contract for the first couple years, in that you can't have a hold out because if you do, the team can set your salary. Obviously, I don't think it would work considering the difference in player handling and the fact that UFA is decided solely on service time, something that the PA won't give in on, but something similar would be nice. Example, if an RFA doesn't sign their QO and remains unsigned at the start of camp, the team can re-sign them at a minimum of 110% their previous salary, or what they deem to be fair. Hiccups in that plan are obvious (under-performance, players walking, etc.), just another scenario I thought up and figured I'd share lol.

Quik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:49 AM
  #65
JackJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
The NHL has made the first move in labour negotiations with its union.

Two media outlets reported Friday night that the league has made an initial offer to the NHL Players' Association with several major changes to the current collective bargaining agreement.

RDS.ca posted details of the proposal, including a reduction of players' hockey-related revenues from 57 per cent to 46 per cent.

Renaud Lavoie, a journalist with RDS, also reports that players would need to wait 10 seasons before becoming unrestricted free agents and that contracts would be limited to a maximum of five years.

The RDS story also says that the NHL's proposal would bring an end to salary arbitration and that entry-level contracts would be five years instead of three as they are under the current CBA.

Larry Brooks of the New York Post also tweeted that the NHL's proposal would eliminate signing bonuses on future contracts and mandate that all future deals have an equal value for every year of the contract.

"NHL proposal amounts to Declaration of War against NHLPA," added Brooks in a separate tweet.

http://www.thescore.com/nhl/articles...tiations-begin
Good luck with that.

JackJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:53 AM
  #66
Squiffy
Victims, rn't we all
 
Squiffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
The NHL is either making money OR they failed in the cities they put the NHL teams in. They cant have it both ways.
The can't all be elite markets. Every league has softer markets, to some degree it has to work for them or we'll only have 20 teams.


Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
The NHL has to start by the winter classic or they will be under fire if they miss that Wngs/Leafs game. (I actually think this could be the first game of the season)
Keep hearing this, but we're talking about a deal the sets the structure for a minimum 3 billion revenue/yr over at least, minimum, 5 years. Working out how 15 billion bare minimum will shake down. 100 million or whatever the Classic might be worth, frankly, small potatoes. Symbolically very important though, yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
If Im the PA I give into nothing until January, and then see where things go. The NHL has a deadline imo, the PA doesn't.
I think you're right about the deadline, and that's exactly how Fehr is framing it to with his "we'll play under the old terms" spiel.

Squiffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:55 AM
  #67
-DeMo-
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Huntsville Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,363
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to -DeMo-
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardslane View Post
I agree.. I edited my post afterwards to include a bit more perspective. 3 years up to 4 years could work if like you said they restructure the pay scale a bit. 4 years at 900k isn't enough when players can get wayyy more in the KHL.

Imagine is Mackinnon decided to play in the KHL for 4 years for 5 million per season. He's the type of prospect that could get that type of money.

Why play in the NHL for 3.6 million Taxed at 40-45% when i can play in russia and make 20 million at a lower tax rate?

here's some info on russian tax laws..
probably because wheather there's a 5 year or 3 year ELC Mackinnon will probably easily make over 60 million in his career assuming he lives up to the hype, how much more money do you need?

-DeMo- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 02:59 AM
  #68
jarek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Yep. The signing bonus and length are largely under their control of management.
I don't get why the NHLPA needs to approve the bonus/contract length. I mean, why can't the owners/GM simply agree to not provide bonuses nor offer these long contracts. The risk I see is a player walks to the KHL. And if a GM cheats he loses draft picks.

In fact, what the owners could push for terms that allow only the team with the player on their roster (Nashville in Suter's case) to offer a bonus and a 6 year contract. And other UFA teams have 5 year and no bonus.
I'm pretty sure that's a collusion/anti-trust/whatever issue, and the owners/GMs would get sued for it.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 03:03 AM
  #69
A1LeafNation
Thanks Boston.
 
A1LeafNation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
The can't all be elite markets. Every league has softer markets, to some degree it has to work for them or we'll only have 20 teams.
The NHL has had 20 years to move teams like Phoenix to profitable cities like back to Quebec or have a second team in Toronto. They have chosen to prop these teams up. Why do the players have to give in because the NHL can't manage their side of the business?

A1LeafNation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 03:10 AM
  #70
Squiffy
Victims, rn't we all
 
Squiffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
The NHL has had 20 years to move teams like Phoenix to profitable cities like back to Quebec or have a second team in Toronto. They have chosen to prop these teams up. Why do the players have to give in because the NHL can't manage their side of the business?
I won't necessarily argue the merits of Phoenix and Colombus, but when cities like Jersey, Dallas, St. Louis, Buffalo struggle to find ownership then something is missing. By the same argument that is made for Phoenix to fold up, maybe to a smaller degree but same argument, all four of them ought to be in the GTA too. But there's where it gets stupid right, it has t work for softer and yet still viable markets.

And yes, they do it to themselves largely, but it's not a normal business model, pro sports.


Last edited by Squiffy: 07-14-2012 at 03:16 AM.
Squiffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 03:29 AM
  #71
number72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
I'm pretty sure that's a collusion/anti-trust/whatever issue, and the owners/GMs would get sued for it.
Could be. Though I tend to think there is collusion among GM already with offer sheets to control salaries already.

number72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 03:31 AM
  #72
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
What they could do is pay players by the game, rather than the season. 1st 80 games (even if over 2 or 3 seasons) they get $10 000/game, and increase is each 80 game span for 4 years or until age 23 or 24, whichever comes 1st.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 03:33 AM
  #73
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Could be. Though I tend to think there is collusion among GM already with offer sheets to control salaries already.
Can collusion exist in a system where players get a set % of revenue?

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 03:42 AM
  #74
number72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Can collusion exist in a system where players get a set % of revenue?
For RFAs it could suppress player salaries.

On the aggregate across the players likely not. That said, I'm not aware how players get the agreed upon %of HRR if a team does not spend to cap. Unless %HRR is tied to the cap floor and not the ceiling.

number72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2012, 03:49 AM
  #75
Squiffy
Victims, rn't we all
 
Squiffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
For RFAs it could suppress player salaries.

On the aggregate across the players likely not. That said, I'm not aware how players get the agreed upon %of HRR if a team does not spend to cap. Unless %HRR is tied to the cap floor and not the ceiling.
Escrow, everyones salary gets adjusted up or down on % once audited HRR is in. I think, in simplistic version.

Squiffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:19 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.