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Old
07-14-2012, 12:55 PM
  #101
HCH
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
The players should get the lion's share of rewards, nobody has ever bought a ticket to watch an owner.

Imagine a less restrictive system where Molson can invest his $40 million in profits every year to bring a Cup to Montreal instead of being restricted to a cap (which is basically hamstrings us a further 10-15% because of the tax issue) so that Columbus and Florida and other places that don't give a rat's about hockey can stay afloat.

Sure, some teams will fold in that situation ,but I couldn't care less, hockey was better with 24 teams.
As a group the players DO get a lot more than the owners. They show up for work and get a big pay cheque without any any investment risk whatsoever. The owners invest millions and a handful of them are losing millions more.

In order to keep the system viable there has to be an opportunity for an owner to make money. Currently that situation doesn't exist for a few teams.

And if the league went to 24 teams, Donald Fehr and the NHLPA would be the big losers. It might mean better hockey but 120 players would lose their NHL salaries. How would Fehr face the association if 20% of its members were put out of work.

Neither side holds all the cards in these negotiations. I hope they get the contract right this time around.

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07-14-2012, 12:57 PM
  #102
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Athletes are not serfs. They are employees. Without an owner paying Sidney Crosby for his services, what would he make as the world's best pond hockey player? Zero.

And where do owners get the money to pay the Sidney's of the world? From their own stash? **** no. From hockey FANS like you and I.

So why are hockey FANS wanting to screw the owners so that the Sidney's get more money while at the same time the hockey FANS will pay MORE money?

Hockey is a business. Think about it this way and maybe it will make sense to you.

Owners make money.
Players make money.
FANS SPEND MONEY.

Oh, and think of every single player on the Canadiens roster. Do they CARE about YOU? Sure, they will sign autographs and be nice to you in public functions. And they probably make good and friendly neighbors. But do they care about you? Or would they take the extra millions offered to them by another team to leave Montreal? Would they call YOU before they left to tell you that they are sorry that they are leaving?

There is a reality disconnect from a few here.......
Fans pay to watch players. How many people have you seen with Molson on the back of their shirts? The idea that owners deserve everything and workers should live on whatever they get (less and less each year in many areas of the labor force going back decades now) is the philosophy that is destroying the middle class. Being born on third base does not mean you "work 10 times harder" it means you start out owning 10 times as much. Or 1,000,000 times as much, frankly.

You really think Molson works 10 times harder than an an NHL player or coach? How? Does he have 130 hours a day? Neat trick.

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07-14-2012, 01:01 PM
  #103
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Without the current crop of owners we could have something like the German Bundesligia where the fans own the teams directly. The owners aren't essential. The players and the fans are. The owners are largely just middlemen to that relationship.

The fans will pay the same under the current arrangement as much as a new one with this setup. The league takes as much revenue as they can, not just enough to pay the players. The owners aren't the fans' representative here. In fact they are counter to the fans interest because they are the only ones that look to be want to lose games to get what they want which is what the fans want least.
I can say the same thing.

Without Brad Pitt around, I could marry Angelina Jolie.

What you stated and what I just posted are just pure fantasy. Wishful thinking with no basis in reality.

Owners want to lose games? OK, that is getting on the verge of delusional conspiracy.

Why dont you start your own hockey team with fan support if you make it out to be that easy? Find a million fans who are willing to raise the half billion $$$ or so that you need to establish a team (gotta build that really good arena). Good luck and get after it.........(but once you do, you will find that you will begin to worry about revenues and expenses........just like those evil owners )

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Old
07-14-2012, 01:02 PM
  #104
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Prices of most everything typically never goes down once it goes up.

Prices can stay the same if revenue stays the same. However, prices ALWAYS go up when revenue drops. Owners are not investing millions of dollars just to lose millions of dollars. They are not idiots.

But I get it. In your mind, "profit" is an evil word. You would rather players "profits" to go up instead of the owner's "profits". And you dont mind spending more of your hard earned money just to be able to say the owners might make less "profit". Interesting...
Profit isn't an evil word. Its good that everyone profits. However, I have no interest in seeing the already wealthy profit on sports. If they do that's great, if they don't its no skin off my back. NHL teams aren't bought as stand alone businesses. If they were then they'd cost less. For the most part they are bought as vanity projects or components of media empires.

The owners aren't the great entrepreneurs here. They don't invent the product or do much to enhance it. Their only value is in management and the crux of their argument is that they need to change the rules because they are collectively bad at it.

I have nothing against owners in the status quo, but if they are threatening another lockout shortly after losing a full season a getting everything they wanted then their motives deserve to be questioned. Doubly so because in the triad of players-owners-fans they are the least necessary component.

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07-14-2012, 01:03 PM
  #105
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I would too but if anything makes my neck veins bulge it's people who think employees are serfs. It's an even more nonsensical argument in sports - Sidney Crosby, in an uncapped market, would collect a huge amount of money because nobody does what Sid does. What he'll sell in tickets, merchandise, advertising and so on will pay for his contract and if he wins you a Cup then it's a bonanza.



Anyway, let's bring it back to sport. Every team in baseball except for the Jays, Natspos (who are in first place), Royals, Orioles and Pirates (who are in first place) have made the playoffs in the last 10 years. Half the league has won a pennant, and we've had eight different champions in the last 10 years.

The same 3-4 teams stuff is so dumb. It wasn't even true in the late 90s, it's definitely not now.
Wow, you really don't understand much do you? You use Sid as an example of how much he should get in an open non cap world because the tickets he'd sell and merchandise would pay for it. How? if you're sold out where do you sell the extra tickets to pay him? The merchandising of proprietary logos and brands that are the Pens should go directly into Lemieux's pocket. He kept the team there and made the deals to build a new arena. He supported the franchise when they sucked and nobody was going but a few draft picks later they are a force and Sid should get the rewards?

I guess when Sid signed the Reebok deal the Pens should have got half right? Sid makes a lot more money that just his salary. He owns his person and he sells it to the highest bidder...Reebok in this case.

That's what players don't tell you. They say they want a piece of ALL hockey revenue including the building, parking, concessions and so on. They should spit the revenue from ticket sales 50-50 and the owners keep the rest of the event related revenue because it is their brand that is being sold and the players get to sign sponsorship deals and sell their own brand (themselves) with no sharing with the owner.

This is not a partnership venture with the players. They don't have a stake in any team they go form one team to another with no loyalty to any of them because it is their business so why get all misty eyed for them when they don't care about anything but the almighty dollar? Some here are making it seem that the owners are greedy but the same is true of the players...its called negotiating.

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07-14-2012, 01:03 PM
  #106
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Fans pay to watch players. How many people have you seen with Molson on the back of their shirts? The idea that owners deserve everything and workers should live on whatever they get (less and less each year in many areas of the labor force going back decades now) is the philosophy that is destroying the middle class. Being born on third base does not mean you "work 10 times harder" it means you start out owning 10 times as much. Or 1,000,000 times as much, frankly.

You really think Molson works 10 times harder than an an NHL player or coach? How? Does he have 130 hours a day? Neat trick.
We are talking about hockey players and multi-million dollar contracts that they get compliments of our money, not the average working person.

After all, no one is willing to pay to watch you or I work....

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07-14-2012, 01:05 PM
  #107
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Wow, you really don't understand much do you? You use Sid as an example of how much he should get in an open non cap world because the tickets he'd sell and merchandise would pay for it. How? if you're sold out where do you sell the extra tickets to pay him? The merchandising of proprietary logos and brands that are the Pens should go directly into Lemieux's pocket. He kept the team there and made the deals to build a new arena. He supported the franchise when they sucked and nobody was going but a few draft picks later they are a force and Sid should get the rewards?

I guess when Sid signed the Reebok deal the Pens should have got half right? Sid makes a lot more money that just his salary. He owns his person and he sells it to the highest bidder...Reebok in this case.

That's what players don't tell you. They say they want a piece of ALL hockey revenue including the building, parking, concessions and so on. They should spit the revenue from ticket sales 50-50 and the owners keep the rest of the event related revenue because it is their brand that is being sold and the players get to sign sponsorship deals and sell their own brand (themselves) with no sharing with the owner.

This is not a partnership venture with the players. They don't have a stake in any team they go form one team to another with no loyalty to any of them because it is their business so why get all misty eyed for them when they don't care about anything but the almighty dollar? Some here are making it seem that the owners are greedy but the same is true of the players...its called negotiating.
Great post.

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Old
07-14-2012, 01:07 PM
  #108
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I can say the same thing.

Without Brad Pitt around, I could marry Angelina Jolie.

What you stated and what I just posted are just pure fantasy. Wishful thinking with no basis in reality.

Owners want to lose games? OK, that is getting on the verge of delusional conspiracy.

Why dont you start your own hockey team with fan support if you make it out to be that easy? Find a million fans who are willing to raise the half billion $$$ or so that you need to establish a team (gotta build that really good arena). Good luck and get after it.........(but once you do, you will find that you will begin to worry about revenues and expenses........just like those evil owners )
Demonstrate a feasible scenario where you could get Jolie if Pitt didn't exist and you'd have a point.

As it is I can point directly to a very successful existing sports league that runs this way. Or in North America I can point to the Green Bay Packers. My counter example exists and is successful in real life not fantasy.

For a sports league to work players are necessary, fans are necessary. Wealthy single owners not so much.

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07-14-2012, 01:08 PM
  #109
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Yes, the owners are very wealthy. But you are losing sight of one significant fact. There are teams losing money.

If you were a business owner, regardless of wealth, would you accept your business losing money every year at the same time your employees are demanding more money or they will go on strike? If you are honest, you know the answer to that question.

Here are the teams that had negative operating income last season.

Pittsburgh Penguins -- -0.2 (millions)
Los Angeles Kings -- -2.0
Dallas Stars -- -1.1
Washington Capitals -- -7.5
Minnesota Wild -- -5.9
San Jose Sharks -- -7.8
Anaheim Ducks -- -8.4
New Jersey Devils -- -6.1
Tampa Bay Lightning -- -8.5
Buffalo Sabres -- -5.6
Carolina Hurricanes -- -4.4
Winnipeg Jets -- -5.2
Nashville Predators -- -7.5
Florida Panthers -- -7.0
St Louis Blues -- -2.7
Columbus Blue Jackets -- -13.7
New York Islanders -- -8.1
Phoenix Coyotes -- -24.4

Be careful which side you take in this negotiation. 18 of the 30 teams are losing money. Ownership is not in this to lose money. If the owners get saddled with paying more to players, who loses? Ownership? Hell no. YOU and I do. Look for higher ticket prices, concession prices and merchandise prices. Prices that will eliminate participation at hockey games for the average person.

Its easy to blame and hate the wealthy. In that short sighted belief, you end up hurting yourself, not the wealthy owners.
All your list tells me is that hockey is viable in Canada. Why should I care or subsidize American franchises that have and would kick Canadian teams to the curb if the opportunity ever presented itself. I'd rather have Saskatoon, Hamilton and Quebec City than teams like Phoenix or Dallas.

I'd rather have a Canadian League and let the American businessman destroy the NHL with their business savvy and destroy it they will.

Better fans make for better hockey.

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Old
07-14-2012, 01:11 PM
  #110
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Athletes are not serfs. They are employees. Without an owner paying Sidney Crosby for his services, what would he make as the world's best pond hockey player? Zero.

And where do owners get the money to pay the Sidney's of the world? From their own stash? **** no. From hockey FANS like you and I.

So why are hockey FANS wanting to screw the owners so that the Sidney's get more money while at the same time the hockey FANS will pay MORE money?

Hockey is a business. Think about it this way and maybe it will make sense to you.

Owners make money.
Players make money.
FANS SPEND MONEY.

Oh, and think of every single player on the Canadiens roster. Do they CARE about YOU? Sure, they will sign autographs and be nice to you in public functions. And they probably make good and friendly neighbors. But do they care about you? Or would they take the extra millions offered to them by another team to leave Montreal? Would they call YOU before they left to tell you that they are sorry that they are leaving?

There is a reality disconnect from a few here.......
I couldn't care less about whether Canadiens players care for me, I'm not a 17 year old girl looking for emotional validation like you are with ownership. I care about people making their fair share, whether it's in the auto industry, flipping burgers, or playing hockey.

I don't care at all for the owner's sob story. It's been established for well over a century in North America that people will pay to watch the top baseball/football/basketball/hockey players ply their craft. Owners are just a conduit, if the Molsons want to sell there will be groups aplenty to buy them out and get their share of Habs action. They'll get big profits doing so too, and that's fine. We're all capitalists here, but the labor theory of value melds pretty well with the free market in sports, because if the Molsons don't want to pay for players other teams can, will, and do, and make money doing it.

By the way, did tickets go down when the salary cap came in? Uh, no.

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07-14-2012, 01:11 PM
  #111
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All your list tells me is that hockey is viable in Canada. Why should I care or subsidize American franchises that have and would kick Canadian teams to the curb if the opportunity ever presented itself. I'd rather have Saskatoon, Hamilton and Quebec City than teams like Phoenix or Dallas.

I'd rather have a Canadian League and let the American businessman destroy the NHL with their business savvy and destroy it they will.

Better fans make for better hockey.
Well there you go. Nothing left to say after this post.

Being an American fan of the Canadiens, I guess you will next tell me to find another team in America to root for.

Thanks for your openmindedness.

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07-14-2012, 01:14 PM
  #112
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We are talking about hockey players and multi-million dollar contracts that they get compliments of our money, not the average working person.

After all, no one is willing to pay to watch you or I work....
We're talking billionaire owners here. With the Molsons, they're not not even self-made men.

Geoff Molson owes his wealth due to an accident of birth. If he did nothing in his life, was a great big ****ing failure, he'd be James Dolan and own the Rangers.

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07-14-2012, 01:15 PM
  #113
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Wow, you really don't understand much do you? You use Sid as an example of how much he should get in an open non cap world because the tickets he'd sell and merchandise would pay for it. How? if you're sold out where do you sell the extra tickets to pay him? The merchandising of proprietary logos and brands that are the Pens should go directly into Lemieux's pocket. He kept the team there and made the deals to build a new arena. He supported the franchise when they sucked and nobody was going but a few draft picks later they are a force and Sid should get the rewards?

I guess when Sid signed the Reebok deal the Pens should have got half right? Sid makes a lot more money that just his salary. He owns his person and he sells it to the highest bidder...Reebok in this case.

That's what players don't tell you. They say they want a piece of ALL hockey revenue including the building, parking, concessions and so on. They should spit the revenue from ticket sales 50-50 and the owners keep the rest of the event related revenue because it is their brand that is being sold and the players get to sign sponsorship deals and sell their own brand (themselves) with no sharing with the owner.

This is not a partnership venture with the players. They don't have a stake in any team they go form one team to another with no loyalty to any of them because it is their business so why get all misty eyed for them when they don't care about anything but the almighty dollar? Some here are making it seem that the owners are greedy but the same is true of the players...its called negotiating.
LOL, have you never heard of raising ticket prices?

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07-14-2012, 01:16 PM
  #114
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I couldn't care less about whether Canadiens players care for me, I'm not a 17 year old girl looking for emotional validation like you are with ownership. I care about people making their fair share, whether it's in the auto industry, flipping burgers, or playing hockey.

I don't care at all for the owner's sob story. It's been established for well over a century in North America that people will pay to watch the top baseball/football/basketball/hockey players ply their craft. Owners are just a conduit, if the Molsons want to sell there will be groups aplenty to buy them out and get their share of Habs action. They'll get big profits doing so too, and that's fine. We're all capitalists here, but the labor theory of value melds pretty well with the free market in sports, because if the Molsons don't want to pay for players other teams can, will, and do, and make money doing it.

By the way, did tickets go down when the salary cap came in? Uh, no.
Sharpen your reading skills. I already said prices did not go down.

This is going to surprise you. I could care less about the owners. They are doing well and will continue to do well regardless of the CBA that emerges. So will the players.

The losers in all of this.........if the owners are forced to share more revenue..........is the fan.

Disconnect your hatred of wealthy people and people powerful and wealthy enough to own an NHL franchise and you too will come to the realization that the more the owners have to spend simply means that is more that YOU will have to spend.

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07-14-2012, 01:17 PM
  #115
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Well there you go. Nothing left to say after this post.

Being an American fan of the Canadiens, I guess you will next tell me to find another team in America to root for.

Thanks for your openmindedness.
Homeboy, I'm from California. Stop being so hurt. I barely care what happens to hockey in California.

I won't lie and say I'm unhappy it's generally worked out well for the Sharkies, but they aren't my team, and I have no interest in subsidizing the Ducks. Not my fault a team named after Disney that plays in the world's largest collection of suburbs can't draw flies.

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07-14-2012, 01:18 PM
  #116
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As a group the players DO get a lot more than the owners. They show up for work and get a big pay cheque without any any investment risk whatsoever.
Players only invest their entire working lives to get good enough to play at the highest level. Frankly that should be considered a bigger investment than anything the owners make. They made the investment risk in their careers not paying off, which is a much bigger risk than anything the owners took on.

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07-14-2012, 01:18 PM
  #117
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We're talking billionaire owners here. With the Molsons, they're not not even self-made men.

Geoff Molson owes his wealth due to an accident of birth. If he did nothing in his life, was a great big ****ing failure, he'd be James Dolan and own the Rangers.
Being jealous, petty and disliking someone because they have a better lot in life than you is a sad existence.

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07-14-2012, 01:19 PM
  #118
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I'm from California.
Now I understand.............

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07-14-2012, 01:21 PM
  #119
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From Renaud Lavoie Twitter

leagues request

46% of revenue to the players instead of 57% right now

max length of contracts 5 years

no more arbitration

entry level contract 5 years instead of 3

you need to be in the NHL 10 years before free agency...

if there is any truth to this, we may look at hard hard negociations...
Negotiations will be hard but I think they end up with a 4 or 5 tyear deal and the season will go on as planned.

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07-14-2012, 01:25 PM
  #120
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Sharpen your reading skills. I already said prices did not go down.

This is going to surprise you. I could care less about the owners. They are doing well and will continue to do well regardless of the CBA that emerges. So will the players.

The losers in all of this.........if the owners are forced to share more revenue..........is the fan.

Disconnect your hatred of wealthy people and people powerful and wealthy enough to own an NHL franchise and you too will come to the realization that the more the owners have to spend simply means that is more that YOU will have to spend.
The Habs make $40 million a year in profits, the Molsons and their ilk are more than happy to take my money - figuratively, since like you I don't live in the country - as it stands.

The owners were more than happy to leave the Forum, build a brand new arena (with their own money, I'll give 'em credit for that) and take hockey to the big time. I've got a '79 Canadiens program, it's $14 for the reds. If Geoff Molson wants to turn hockey back into a mom & pop business then I am jus' fine with that. HNIC in perpetuity on the CBC, lots of teams in areas where people care about hockey, not where they can make a fast buck, big SuperSeries with the KHL teams and Canada Cup? That would be great!

But the lords of the NHL consciously and willingly turned it into a multi-billion enterprise because they could. Because they played on the fans and their desire for live sports.

If they are happy with that then fine, but that means I want the men who give their bodies for the sport and can't get out of bed when they're 40 because their left knee, which got shot up with cortisone so they could play in a playoff game, has locked up to get the lion's share of the money. Because I pay for them not Geoff Molson.

I don't hate wealthy people, stop being ridiculous. I have a lower opinion of born-wealthy than self-made men but who doesn't? Mike Illitch is a made man and I respect him a lot more than any Molson. But even so, I haven't said the Molsons or anybody else should have a gun held to their head and spend their entire net worth on the Habs, or on the Molson brewery employees. But there's a huge difference between making money and stiffing your employees.

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07-14-2012, 01:27 PM
  #121
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Now I understand.............
When was the last time you laced up a pair of skates?

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07-14-2012, 01:31 PM
  #122
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Now I understand.............
Hater

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07-14-2012, 01:41 PM
  #123
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When was the last time you laced up a pair of skates?
Not your hockey skills.......your jealousy of wealthy people.

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07-14-2012, 01:42 PM
  #124
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I find these negotiations funny. The whole idea of them being called negotiations and partners is one big LOL.

The owners have the players over the barrel. There is nothing they can do. You think they players want to go live in Russia forever? Come on, they have no leverage and never have.

They won't sign this deal, the league doesn't expect them to, but the owners will get what they want, again.

Donald Fehr will not out muscle Gary Bettman. I know people don't like Bettman, but when it comes to the business side, he'll never lose. The PA has no power.

Only 10 teams are making money, the model is broken. I know many say, well the owners who are losing aren't losing that much, so who cares, well, they do. They are business men, they don't throw their money away if they can prevent it.

If the PA gets stubborn, they will sit out and eventually settle for what the league is asking, or a very close variation. The losing teams don't really give a **** if there is a season next year or not, a lockout saves them money.

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07-14-2012, 01:42 PM
  #125
SouthernHab
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC93 View Post
Hater
Does calling me a hater make you a hater?

Now what?

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