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Ladies and gentleman we are going on a strike or lock-out

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Old
07-14-2012, 01:44 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
The players should get the lion's share of rewards, nobody has ever bought a ticket to watch an owner.

Imagine a less restrictive system where Molson can invest his $40 million in profits every year to bring a Cup to Montreal instead of being restricted to a cap (which is basically hamstrings us a further 10-15% because of the tax issue) so that Columbus and Florida and other places that don't give a rat's about hockey can stay afloat.

Sure, some teams will fold in that situation ,but I couldn't care less, hockey was better with 24 teams.
Non sense. It's the same in any business, no one goes to any company to see the owner. The employees never get the majority.

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07-14-2012, 01:45 PM
  #127
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Not your hockey skills.......your jealousy of wealthy people.
Yeah because nobody makes money in California.

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07-14-2012, 01:46 PM
  #128
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Athletes are not serfs. They are employees. Without an owner paying Sidney Crosby for his services, what would he make as the world's best pond hockey player? Zero.

And where do owners get the money to pay the Sidney's of the world? From their own stash? **** no. From hockey FANS like you and I.

So why are hockey FANS wanting to screw the owners so that the Sidney's get more money while at the same time the hockey FANS will pay MORE money?

Hockey is a business. Think about it this way and maybe it will make sense to you.

Owners make money.
Players make money.
FANS SPEND MONEY.

Oh, and think of every single player on the Canadiens roster. Do they CARE about YOU? Sure, they will sign autographs and be nice to you in public functions. And they probably make good and friendly neighbors. But do they care about you? Or would they take the extra millions offered to them by another team to leave Montreal? Would they call YOU before they left to tell you that they are sorry that they are leaving?

There is a reality disconnect from a few here.......

Right.

I said this many time , INSTEAD OF THE PLAYERS AND OWNERS going on strike or locking out fans , i would LOVE to see the fans in the major cities like New York, Montreal ,Toronto form a "Fan UNION" and demand like the players and owners do a fan CBA , to REDUCE TICKET PRICES or bargin to keep them in check .

If the owner don't want to listen? You threaten a WALK OUT ... That is fair for the owners and players to do, then why not fans?


To all the people who says it is the owners who pay the player you're out to lunch .....The fans pay the players PERIOD.

Just like if everyone stopped buyin a certain brand cell phone that rhymes with snapple , what happens? down goes the company ....it is SUPPORTED by it FANS/Customers.

Here is a chart from 2008 /09 to show just how dependent the teams are on the Gate(TICKET SALE -YOU).....They champion record revenues in NHL, but that has come off the fans backs.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=27138


Last edited by Habaneros: 07-14-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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07-14-2012, 01:48 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Does calling me a hater make you a hater?

Now what?
I'm too lazy to answer the first question but the answer to "now what" is... go to the beach and enjoy my Saturday.

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Old
07-14-2012, 01:49 PM
  #130
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I'm too lazy to answer the first question but the answer to "now what" is... go to the beach and enjoy my Saturday.
Drink a beer or two for me.

Have fun.

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07-14-2012, 02:00 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Non sense. It's the same in any business, no one goes to any company to see the owner. The employees never get the majority.
Depends of what kind of business we're talking about... capitalists ones, yes, socialists and coops, no.

I support the players, their the ones paying the price and with the talent... they're millionaires *****, but so are the owners.

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07-14-2012, 02:05 PM
  #132
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Don't pay too much heed of Southernhab' frantic rambling.

The guy has a strange reputation on the political board, going far right extremist argumentation on a constant basis and can't maintain a reasonable argument.

Not surprised he'd take the billionaire's side in this issue. And just call you random insults when someone contradicts him with actual arguments.

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07-14-2012, 02:05 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Depends of what kind of business we're talking about... capitalists ones, yes, socialists and coops, no.

I support the players, their the ones paying the price and with the talent... they're millionaires *****, but so are the owners.
at what point will the fans support the fans?

We finish dead last , yet tickets increased in price, so the current biz model is risk free for owners...Double power rates, double gas prices, double ticket prices and say record revenues? it's gouging the costumers......


Ya ya , the fans are willing to pay it sure, as they put $15.000 on a credit line for a season of games...lol

There is a breaking point, where it will be? will see sooner rather than later IMHO....Just like the car unions always got more and more, then boom ....where did they land?


Last edited by Habaneros: 07-14-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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07-14-2012, 02:08 PM
  #134
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This is a business
feel sorry for neither
Millionaires are paid to play hockey
Billionaires are in it for the money - just like the players have a right to maximize earnings so do the owners.
Split the cut at 50 / 50 and go from there

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07-14-2012, 02:12 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Don't pay too much heed of Southernhab' frantic rambling.

The guy has a strange reputation on the political board, going far right extremist argumentation on a constant basis and can't maintain a reasonable argument.

Not surprised he'd take the billionaire's side in this issue. And just call you random insults when someone contradicts him with actual arguments.
It's got more to do with reality than taking sides. No owner is going to continually lose money on purpose, no matter how much you think he should.

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07-14-2012, 02:26 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
It's got more to do with reality than taking sides. No owner is going to continually lose money on purpose, no matter how much you think he should.
Owners have only themselves to blame about that. They are the ones who approve expansion into dead market and cannot bring themselves to have a format that would bring customers over to the game in these dead markets.

And they started plugging holes in the whole CBA about 5 minutes after the ink dried up last time. If they genuinely wanted to protect their profit margin, they'd have done something about that when it became clear people were circumventing the salary cap with horrendeous contracts that would be a drain on everyone's resources.

They only have themselves to blame for these issues. Not the players.

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07-14-2012, 02:35 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Depends of what kind of business we're talking about... capitalists ones, yes, socialists and coops, no.

I support the players, their the ones paying the price and with the talent... they're millionaires *****, but so are the owners.
I thought capitalism involved people investing and operating businesses in a competitive market place against other business people but what we have here is a monopoly of an industry.

This strike is more about the protection of over-inflated franchise prices than it is about anything else because if the value of franchises came down to where they should be a lot of these owners would be in a world of hurt.

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07-14-2012, 02:39 PM
  #138
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I really have no issue with the proposal. I don't agree with it but the NHL needs to make a hard stance. The cap is going up too fast and without a decrease in risk, the whole system with implode. I hope the NHLPA realizes if they push too hard, they lose. The reality is, a strike/lockout or just plain gain for the NHLPA financially with destroy the league long term and as a result, less teams, less money and less players getting paid.

I'd also like to point out, I wish every other company in the world gave 50/50 splits on profits. But...then don't. The players taking a 50% cut is already massive IMO.

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07-14-2012, 02:48 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Don't pay too much heed of Southernhab' frantic rambling.

The guy has a strange reputation on the political board, going far right extremist argumentation on a constant basis and can't maintain a reasonable argument.

Not surprised he'd take the billionaire's side in this issue. And just call you random insults when someone contradicts him with actual arguments.
Dispute my argument here then.

And you can use frantic rambling if you like.

If the the owners are forced to share more revenue, will ticket prices go up?

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07-14-2012, 02:50 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Dispute my argument here then.

And you can use frantic rambling if you like.

If the the owners are forced to share more revenue, will ticket prices go up?
This assumes that if the owners don't or the salary cap goes down, ticket prices won't go up.

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07-14-2012, 02:51 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
Right.

I said this many time , INSTEAD OF THE PLAYERS AND OWNERS going on strike or locking out fans , i would LOVE to see the fans in the major cities like New York, Montreal ,Toronto form a "Fan UNION" and demand like the players and owners do a fan CBA , to REDUCE TICKET PRICES or bargin to keep them in check .

If the owner don't want to listen? You threaten a WALK OUT ... That is fair for the owners and players to do, then why not fans?


To all the people who says it is the owners who pay the player you're out to lunch .....The fans pay the players PERIOD.

Just like if everyone stopped buyin a certain brand cell phone that rhymes with snapple , what happens? down goes the company ....it is SUPPORTED by it FANS/Customers.

Here is a chart from 2008 /09 to show just how dependent the teams are on the Gate(TICKET SALE -YOU).....They champion record revenues in NHL, but that has come off the fans backs.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=27138
I would love it if fans made a stand and said good tickets for a family of four shouldn't require a second mortgage. But that requires sacrifice - the sacrifice of not going.

I'm happy with not buying tickets, many, many people aren't though.

Most sports fans are like the Liverpool fans who protested about the club's ownership...before all marching into the stadium to watch the next game.

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07-14-2012, 02:51 PM
  #142
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This shouldn't be a fight between owners and players, it should be between the owners making big profits and those who aren't. There is plenty of overall revenue to go around under the current arrangement with the players (though the contract length debate is a valid issue). It should be up to owners to decide to either increase revenue sharing or relocate failing franchises.

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07-14-2012, 02:53 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
This assumes that if the owners don't or the salary cap goes down, ticket prices won't go up.
Ownership of a hockey franchise is not a zero sum game. But you know that and you cannot dispute what I stated so you throw out some fallacy that lets everyone know that you are talking out of your ass.

Just admit that you want the owners to be soaked because you do not like wealthy people. Sure, it may mean more costs to you in ticket prices and prices of merchandise but that feeling that some rich guy is paying more (when really he is not) is better, eh?

Its always better to be honest than to make a silly argument though.

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07-14-2012, 03:03 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Ownership of a hockey franchise is not a zero sum game. But you know that and you cannot dispute what I stated so you throw out some fallacy that lets everyone know that you are talking out of your ass.

Just admit that you want the owners to be soaked because you do not like wealthy people. Sure, it may mean more costs to you in ticket prices and prices of merchandise but that feeling that some rich guy is paying more (when really he is not) is better, eh?

Its always better to be honest than to make a silly argument though.
In what world are you functioning?

Owners charge what the market will bear. I can't think of a starker example than ticket prices going up after the lockout, when costs went down by 25%.

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07-14-2012, 03:05 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
In what world are you functioning?

Owners charge what the market will bear. I can't think of a starker example than ticket prices going up after the lockout, when costs went down by 25%.
I'm telling you. Don't bother. Next thing he'll find an insult to throw to your face when you dare bring up "facts" or "logic" to the argument.

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07-14-2012, 03:31 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Owners have only themselves to blame about that. They are the ones who approve expansion into dead market and cannot bring themselves to have a format that would bring customers over to the game in these dead markets.

And they started plugging holes in the whole CBA about 5 minutes after the ink dried up last time. If they genuinely wanted to protect their profit margin, they'd have done something about that when it became clear people were circumventing the salary cap with horrendeous contracts that would be a drain on everyone's resources.

They only have themselves to blame for these issues. Not the players.
Yes, if only it were that simple. All it takes is one owner, 1, to set the price for the rest. Some teams need playoff revenue just to break even, how do you suppose they do that? By avoiding signing players?

The owners are not without fault, but the current system doesn't work, blame is not important, the owners hold all the cards, the entire deck. Two/thirds of teams lose money, period. It needs to be fixed.

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07-14-2012, 03:32 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I really have no issue with the proposal. I don't agree with it but the NHL needs to make a hard stance. The cap is going up too fast and without a decrease in risk, the whole system with implode. I hope the NHLPA realizes if they push too hard, they lose. The reality is, a strike/lockout or just plain gain for the NHLPA financially with destroy the league long term and as a result, less teams, less money and less players getting paid.

I'd also like to point out, I wish every other company in the world gave 50/50 splits on profits. But...then don't. The players taking a 50% cut is already massive IMO.
100% this.

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07-14-2012, 03:54 PM
  #148
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Hockey has the smallest following of any major sport in North America. The NHL is kept alive by a relatively small number of fans. Some owners sought an NHL franchise because they wanted to maximize the use of their arenas. Some NHL owners don't even own the arenas but have induced local governments to build them.

Starting in the 1960s the NHL began a wave of expansion that eventually brought it to 30 cities. Some of those cities couldn't (and can't) support a team. The owners of profitable teams didn't (couldn't) buy out the faltering franchises, so they relectantly agreed to subsidize their weak sisters with revenue sharing. The players took their cue from revenue sharing and demanded a share for themselves and were willing to strike to get it. They did. Now it seems that there isn't enough revenue for all 30 owners and 700+ players and coaches and and arena owners to share despite sharp increases in ticket prices, the construction of corporate luxury boxes, the auctioning of TV rights, and merchandise sales. While some owners profit handsomely this isn't universal. Several franchises are struggling. Over the years a number of them have relocated or changed ownership.

It's unlikely that the NHL will contract. As in the past, it will carry the basket cases forward. However, the more the players receive, the harder it will be to subsidize the basket cases. New owners seem to pop up like mushrooms but it appears unlikely that there will ever be 30 healthy franchise. Even if ownership were turned over to the players, the players wouldn't be able to increase their own salaries exponentially. Nor would they be able to pay limitless benefits to former players (meaning themselves in future years.)

Given this situation, I'm inclined to favor the so-called "greedy owners." Fans who regularly attend games should take a stand and not accept absurdly higher ticket prices every time the cap goes up. This may be a calculated gamble, but given the current precarious worldwide economy, the owners can't just sneeringly say, Take it or leave it."

I'm not an MBA or an economist and I can't speak for all fans but that's my assessment. I'm not defending my doctoral dissertation, so I don't mind having my post criticized. If anyone can demonstrate that the players deservemore than 50% of the revenue, fine, but I don't see why. Some of them would be pumping gas in Moose Jaw or Cape Breton if they didn't have superior hockey skills.

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07-14-2012, 03:54 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Yes, if only it were that simple. All it takes is one owner, 1, to set the price for the rest. Some teams need playoff revenue just to break even, how do you suppose they do that? By avoiding signing players?

The owners are not without fault, but the current system doesn't work, blame is not important, the owners hold all the cards, the entire deck. Two/thirds of teams lose money, period. It needs to be fixed.
You got it wrong. It takes 1 owner to make a wild and stupid move, and 29 others to LET IT HAPPEN. Other owners could very well have protested and filed a complain against the faulty party when the first of the ludicrous contract appeared on the market (I believe it was DiPetro), so that these kinds would be disallowed.

They didn't. They decided to play along, and it got them into the current mess.

Also, they installed themselves in markets like Atlanta, Phoenix and Colombus, setting up massive deficit-inducing franchises, and never got around to find a way to making them either popular or solvable. They pay the price for these mistakes.

Finally, because of the revenue-sharing system in the NHL and the salary cap being based on a % of said revenue, I don't think the problem is based on the players' salary. Player salary increases only if revenue have increased.

I think we can clearly draw the conclusion that some franchises are badly managed on the business side of things. Diminishing the % of money allocated to the players won't change that. You might only be giving a boon unto the symptom, but the disease will still be raging.

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07-14-2012, 04:03 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
You got it wrong. It takes 1 owner to make a wild and stupid move, and 29 others to LET IT HAPPEN. Other owners could very well have protested and filed a complain against the faulty party when the first of the ludicrous contract appeared on the market (I believe it was DiPetro), so that these kinds would be disallowed.

They didn't. They decided to play along, and it got them into the current mess.

Also, they installed themselves in markets like Atlanta, Phoenix and Colombus, setting up massive deficit-inducing franchises, and never got around to find a way to making them either popular or solvable. They pay the price for these mistakes.

Finally, because of the revenue-sharing system in the NHL and the salary cap being based on a % of said revenue, I don't think the problem is based on the players' salary. Player salary increases only if revenue have increased.

I think we can clearly draw the conclusion that some franchises are badly managed on the business side of things. Diminishing the % of money allocated to the players won't change that. You might only be giving a boon unto the symptom, but the disease will still be raging.
Do you think that "smart" owners could make a profit in Phoenix, for example? Do you think it's OK for part of the ticket you purchase for a game at the Bell Centre to go to them? Corporations all over Canada and the US go bankrupt. Should their competitors keep them alive?

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