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Old
07-12-2012, 11:35 AM
  #51
kento19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I see. So PAP is special enough to work with Tavares but NOT special enough to work with Duchene?

Let's wait and see how it works out first before we start talking about stuff like this. Just like everyone thought Lando would end up playing with Duchene, he settled in with ROR so it's not even certain that PAP ends up playing with Duchene.



Yeah, Tavares missed the cutoff by a few days and I didn't even want to get into deciphering all of that or even worse, get into a debate about all that stuff but you're right, essentially Tavares played his first regular season NHL game as a 19 year old.

So I basically looked if the player was drafted at 18 (not 19, 20 or later) and if so, if he played in the NHL that year. Otherwise, it would have been too time consuming.

At the very least, it puts things in perspective not taking into consideration the incoherent ramblings of kizla or that closet wings fan, 'the_fan'.
I get what you're doing. It would have been way too much work. What you have done already has me blown away haha. I just always get into debates with people about players age/draft year and how much of an advantage the extra birth year has as a rookie. As you get older everybody adjusts and it levels out, but as a rookie in the nhl that whole extra year the late birthdays have on the younger kids is huge.

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07-12-2012, 11:58 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Alex Jones View Post
At this point in his career I think that it takes a pretty special talent to work with Duchene, and PAP is not it. I suspect Semin may be, which is one of the big reasons I want to sign him.
So Flash is a pretty special talent? PAP and Flash are pretty much at the same level of 'talent.' PAP is a better playmaker, Flash has a slightly better shot, both aren't great defensively and neither are real strong skaters.

Semin is a special talent, and would easily be the most talented winger the Avs have. He is also a bit of a headcase, but at the right price you deal with that for the 40 goal potential he brings. Semin probably wouldn't do as well with Duchene as he would with Stastny in my mind. Semin has some of the same issue that Duchene does with not using his linemates real well, that doesn't mean it wouldn't work or I wouldn't try it, but that there is potential for those two to really not fit well together.

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07-12-2012, 05:53 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post

Yeah, Tavares missed the cutoff by a few days and I didn't even want to get into deciphering all of that or even worse, get into a debate about all that stuff but you're right, essentially Tavares played his first regular season NHL game as a 19 year old.

So I basically looked if the player was drafted at 18 (not 19, 20 or later) and if so, if he played in the NHL that year. Otherwise, it would have been too time consuming.

At the very least, it puts things in perspective not taking into consideration the incoherent ramblings of kizla or that closet wings fan, 'the_fan'.
Speaking of Avs, still unsure why ROR isn't included in the list? Or even Landy/RNH with an * that they haven't had a chance for season 2 yet.

Also it doesn't change anything, but just for reference, Stastny started his first NHL season at 20, and turned 21 in late December.

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07-14-2012, 05:01 PM
  #54
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For a dumb, immature selfish kid, he's picked the right guy to train with. He kinda looks like the other Brampton battalion Hodgson. Guess that means we'll be trading him for an overrated big 3rd line grinder.


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07-14-2012, 05:29 PM
  #55
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The NHL Network broadcast the Avs-Stars game from last season this morning. If you recall, that was the crazy 7-6 game that the Stars won in overtime.

It was interesting that the broadcast was the Stars' telecast with the Stars' announcers.

In that game, Duchene scored a hat trick and really could have had 2-3 additional goals. He was far and away the best offensive player on the ice for either team, including Benn and Ericksson from the Stars. It really was not even close.

If you re-watch that game, you gain an appreciation as to why you can't really consider trading Duchene and why he should garner more support. I think some of the Duchene bashing has reached the levels of the Stastny bashing last off-season. He is the new official whipping boy for the board.

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Old
07-14-2012, 05:35 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronaldo View Post
For a dumb, immature selfish kid, he's picked the right guy to train with. He kinda looks like the other Brampton battalion Hodgson. Guess that means we'll be trading him for an overrated big 3rd line grinder.

Is it just me or does Duchene look bigger in that picture? We know both him and Crosby are listed @ 5'11" 200lbs but Duchene looks bigger than Crosby as well.

If he really does put on more muscle then he maybe even harder to get off the puck. Unlike last year..

In the 2010-11 season that was one area he was pretty good at down low. Holding onto the puck down low that is.. but it was more because of his moves than pure strength.

Last season defenders figured out that he could be knocked off the puck with more physical pressure. Interesting

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07-14-2012, 07:42 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Goulet17 View Post
The NHL Network broadcast the Avs-Stars game from last season this morning. If you recall, that was the crazy 7-6 game that the Stars won in overtime.

It was interesting that the broadcast was the Stars' telecast with the Stars' announcers.

In that game, Duchene scored a hat trick and really could have had 2-3 additional goals. He was far and away the best offensive player on the ice for either team, including Benn and Ericksson from the Stars. It really was not even close.

If you re-watch that game, you gain an appreciation as to why you can't really consider trading Duchene and why he should garner more support. I think some of the Duchene bashing has reached the levels of the Stastny bashing last off-season. He is the new official whipping boy for the board.
Duchene was playing wing that night though. As for the bashing...Duchene doesn't have a derogatory nickname (ie Stastny/Casper) so we aren't quite there yet.

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Old
07-15-2012, 12:10 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronaldo View Post
For a dumb, immature selfish kid, he's picked the right guy to train with. He kinda looks like the other Brampton battalion Hodgson. Guess that means we'll be trading him for an overrated big 3rd line grinder.

Kid in the middle is Hunter Shinkaruk, for those wondering. A likely top 5-7 choice in the 2013 NHL Draft who plays for the Medicine Hat Tigers. I've compared his game to Sidney Crosby, very similar styles.

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Old
07-15-2012, 01:25 AM
  #59
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So Duchene had 1 bad season and we are throwing him under the bus?

The kid is extremely talented. Talks of trading him is ludacris. It would would be the dumbest thing Sherman could do.

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Old
07-15-2012, 05:50 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Puckstop40 View Post
So Duchene had 1 bad season and we are throwing him under the bus?

The kid is extremely talented. Talks of trading him is ludacris. It would would be the dumbest thing Sherman could do.
This. People are just expecting too much. Duchene is no Forsberg or Sakic, but he will be damn good. Just give him time.

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:08 PM
  #61
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So I'm bumpin' this thread to simply say...told ya so.

Mark Kizla should just stop writing about hockey because he's a no nothing moron.

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:14 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
So I'm bumpin' this thread to simply say...told ya so.

Mark Kizla should just stop writing about hockey because he's a no nothing moron.
that's mean for the morons

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:19 PM
  #63
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Gotta love the people who wanted to trade him for the likes of Skinner, Couture or Kulikov. And they said fans are impatient, the nerve.

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:31 PM
  #64
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Would not trade him, except for Crosby, Tavares, Stamkos, Pietrangelo... guys like that.

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:35 PM
  #65
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I'd trade him for Crosby but not Tavares/Stamkos/Pietrangelo/Karlsson. He's not better than them (not far behind a few) but he deserves to be this franchises player. I'll post the article he wrote in that Chicken Soup book once I can.

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03-10-2013, 10:41 PM
  #66
Bender
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Originally Posted by Mifroid View Post
Would not trade him, except for Crosby, Tavares, Stamkos, Pietrangelo... guys like that.
I wouldn't trade him for Tavares or Pietrangelo.

Tavares NEEDS the Power Play to put up points. He has 29 points so far this year and 14 points on the PP. Duchene has 5 of his 26 points from what has been a pretty piss-poor PP so far this year.

The point is, Duchene CAN produce a lot of points 5-on-5 and at some point, when we get a decent coach or just simply improve by having the same guys together on the PP for a while, look the **** out!

Anyways, that's my take on it. I've maintained since they were drafted that I'd rather have Duchene over Tavares and I still maintain that today.

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03-10-2013, 10:45 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I wouldn't trade him for Tavares or Pietrangelo.

Tavares NEEDS the Power Play to put up points. He has 29 points so far this year and 14 points on the PP. Duchene has 5 of his 26 points from what has been a pretty piss-poor PP so far this year.

The point is, Duchene CAN produce a lot of points 5-on-5 and at some point, when we get a decent coach or just simply improve by having the same guys together on the PP for a while, look the **** out!

Anyways, that's my take on it. I've maintained since they were drafted that I'd rather have Duchene over Tavares and I still maintain that today.
I agree. Tavares is a great player, but Duchene has a higher ceiling.

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03-10-2013, 10:50 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I wouldn't trade him for Tavares or Pietrangelo.

Tavares NEEDS the Power Play to put up points. He has 29 points so far this year and 14 points on the PP. Duchene has 5 of his 26 points from what has been a pretty piss-poor PP so far this year.

The point is, Duchene CAN produce a lot of points 5-on-5 and at some point, when we get a decent coach or just simply improve by having the same guys together on the PP for a while, look the **** out!

Anyways, that's my take on it. I've maintained since they were drafted that I'd rather have Duchene over Tavares and I still maintain that today.
Agreed, said it since their rookie years and got a lot of **** for defending Duchene last year. IMO Duchene is better but it's close.

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Old
03-10-2013, 10:54 PM
  #69
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I still like Tavares more, he simply has a nose for the net and always has. Duchene is still amazing.

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Old
03-10-2013, 11:21 PM
  #70
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I just bumped my Duchene vs Tavares thread in the NHL General Board with this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I'm bumping this thread because it's a fun argument that's going to be going on for many many years. (I'm also adding this post to the OP, so we can keep this going.) Last year a lot of people had written Duchene off and said he had fallen too far behind Tavares to be in the same conversation. (Read the thread)

Ok so here is how Duchene & Tavares, and their lines stack up with 24 games played each. Duchene hasn't made it to 24 games quite yet, but everyone else has or has surpassed it at this point.

-------------------------------GP----G----A-----P---(+/-)-PIM--PP---SHG-GWG-OT-----S-----S%--TOI/G-----Sft/G-FO%

John Tavares----NYI--C-----24----14---13----27--(-7)--14---5------0-----1----0-----93----15.1-21:27-----23.4-48.4
Matt Moulson----NYI--L-----24----11---14----25--(-8)---4----7------0-----0----0-----88----12.5-19:52------22.5-100.0
Brad Boyes------NYI--R-----24----5----13----18--(-10)-10---1------0-----1----1-----45-----11.1-18:30------21.5-23.1

Totals-------------------------------30---40----70--(-25)--28---13----0----2-----1----226---------------------------------

Matt Duchene---COL--C-----23---11----15---26--(+3)---10----1-----0----2----1-----60----18.3-21:02------27.8-54.9
PA Parenteau----COL--R-----24---10---15----25--(+6----30---2------0----1----0-----56----17.9-19:08------23.5-8.3
Jamie McGinn---COL---L-----24---4-----9----13--(-5)----20----0-----0----2----0-----75-----5.3-18:06-------23.4-75.0

Totals-------------------------------25---39----64--+4----60----3-----0-----5----1----191--------------------------------

Duchene is playing on both the power-play and the penalty-kill (SH TOI/G 2:18 - PP TOI/G 2:56), he was used at the point on the power-play for a long time, and our PP was pretty fN bad. So hes just started to put up some power-play points in the last couple of games, but could have been better there.

Tavares isn't playing both PP & PK his SH TOI/G is 0:08, and has gotten more PP TOI/G @ 3:45 than Duchene.

It looks like Duchene is playing far and away better defensively, but Tavares has been much better on the power-play. That's where it stops though. Based on the real-time stats (Below), Duchene's line is far better defensively as a whole, more physical, and puts up comparable offensive numbers. Duchene's line as a whole also combines for 5 game winning goals vs Tavares's line having 2 total, clutch play comes into the argument with that differential.

It's not as if Colorado has a better defensive core behind Duchene's line either, especially with our injuries this year.

(These stats, I didn't get a chance to grab until today, so not the same amount of games played. But it doesn't exactly look like it would matter.)

-------------------------------GP---Hits--BkS--MsS--GvA-TkA--FOW-FOL--Tot
Matt Duchene---COL--C-----23---29----24---21----10---21---258--212--470
John Tavares----NYI--C-----26----6-----15---38----26---19---253--276--529

Jamie McGinn---COL--L-----24---45-----7----29-----8---14
Brad Boyes------NYI--R-----26---21----12----22----24--11

PA Parenteau----COL-R-----24---31-----5-----8-----15--23
Matt Moulson----NYI--L-----26---12----15----24----10--12


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So Landeskog didn't end up being the LW on Duchene's line for more than a few games, McGinn is there every night. Also Okposo hasn't been the RW on Tavares's line, Boyes has been.

So I ask, now that we are half way through the season and can revisit this discussion. Who's line do you take? Who do you take between Duchene & Tavares?

Tavares's line costs 9.63M AAV

Duchene's line costs 9.25M AAV
Duchene has been better defensively, more physical, and if he puts up a point in his next game. He will be on the same EXACT point pace as Tavares @ 24GP.


Last edited by CobraAcesS: 03-10-2013 at 11:34 PM.
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Old
03-11-2013, 12:03 AM
  #71
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I think Tavares is the better player right now, but Duchene is very close.

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:18 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
I think Tavares is the better player right now, but Duchene is very close.
Just about everything in my post refutes this thought...

Ahh.. and he has continued to prove he deserves being mentioned in the Selke conversation as well.

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/story/?id=416101


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Old
03-11-2013, 01:12 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I wouldn't trade him for Tavares or Pietrangelo.

Tavares NEEDS the Power Play to put up points. He has 29 points so far this year and 14 points on the PP. Duchene has 5 of his 26 points from what has been a pretty piss-poor PP so far this year.

The point is, Duchene CAN produce a lot of points 5-on-5 and at some point, when we get a decent coach or just simply improve by having the same guys together on the PP for a while, look the **** out!

Anyways, that's my take on it. I've maintained since they were drafted that I'd rather have Duchene over Tavares and I still maintain that today.
I always wanted Duchene over Tavares as well before the draft and still prefer him now. I never wanted to trade him during his down year but I have to admit that at one point, he did scare me a little. His spins and his inability to use his linemates effectively was starting to make me wonder if he would ever get it but I was ready to give him more and glad I did. He is nothing short than spectacular this year. He has mature so much. I started to see the change in him while he played for team Canada.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:14 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
I think Tavares is the better player right now, but Duchene is very close.
Yep. So far Tavares has had the better career. His third year was so much better than Duchene's. Not saying Duchene can't tie it up again, but as Avs fans we should probably wait a bit longer than a 20 game hot streak for Duchene before we start talking him up as being as good/better than Tavares again.

I still like watching him better and I still would rather have him than Tavares, but just don't think you can make a solid argument that really convinces anyone he's better just yet when Tavares's third year was so amazing. So why bother.

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03-11-2013, 01:38 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Just about everything in my post refutes this thought...

Ahh.. and he has continued to prove he deserves being mentioned in the Selke conversation as well.

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/story/?id=416101

First off, 24 games isn't a large enough sample size. A hot/cold streak would dramatically alter the stats.

Tavares and Duchene are producing at similar rates, the difference is Tavares is carrying his team. You can say you compared line mates, but Colorado is much deeper offensively. Because Colorado can potentially roll 3 lines, defenders can't just concentrate on shutting Duchene's line down. The only serious scoring threat in NYI is Tavares, he gets all of the attention.

You used PK time as a measure of defensive ability, which is not an accurate measure. Tavares is NYI's best scorer, why tire him out on the PK? Hits are nice as well, but physically play doesn't make a player a better defender.

The link you posted also has Colin Wilson, and Alex Tanguay as Selke candiates. That's the problem when you only look at stats.

I don't think there will ever be a clear cut best player between Tavares and Duchene. But if I had to pick one of the two to play for a team for a single season Tavares would get the nod at this point in time.

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