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Old
07-14-2012, 01:00 PM
  #101
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
On the other hand, even though it veered slightly OT, giving some knowledge of the very rich history that we had right where the arena stands now was not a bad thing. Like I said, we had one of the most important centers of the start of Jazz Music in America, the most important between NYC and Chicago, right there where the arena stands. Along with all of the famous clubs and nightlife that went with that. I doubt many knew of it here and it was not that long ago. The thread was worth it to talk about that some.


But the point of the article that forms the basis for this thread is tangential to that, though only slightly so. Sadly I doubt one in a hundred of the people coming with their hands out, either with this group or in that community, know a thing about this history of theirs.
I actually like reading that stuff. Its the stuff about Jesus being a democrat and whatnot that seems like a very slippery slope to me

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07-14-2012, 01:22 PM
  #102
Darth Vitale
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KNOCK OFF the Jesus talk, folks.

I made the original comment about Jesus and Democrats as a humorous side-comment / a bit of levity. Apparently levity is not possible based on one particular poster's unique interpretations of the Bible, so he attempted turn it into a train wreck.

IN ANY CASE, that's going nowhere. Stick to the Hill District, keep religion talk out of it. It's not directly relevant to any of the problems in the Hill District if the place is anything like I think it is.

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07-14-2012, 01:35 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
KNOCK OFF the Jesus talk, folks.

I made the original comment about Jesus and Democrats as a humorous side-comment / a bit of levity. Apparently levity is not possible based on one particular poster's unique interpretations of the Bible, so he attempted turn it into a train wreck.

IN ANY CASE, that's going nowhere. Stick to the Hill District, keep religion talk out of it. It's not directly relevant to any of the problems in the Hill District if the place is anything like I think it is.
Whoa whoa, my post had Odin and Zoroaster in it too. I refuse for it to be pigeonholed as simply "jesus talk".

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07-14-2012, 01:41 PM
  #104
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Whoa whoa, my post had Odin and Zoroaster in it too. I refuse for it to be pigeonholed as simply "jesus talk".
Sorry if I chopped too much. I was in rapid-fire delete / edit mode to clean up a half dozen posts, before Joel Osteen found out about this thread and brought in his pal from the 700 Club and their GOP lobbyists to tell us all about Republican Jesus.

Knowing you I am confident that your post, including the Jesus talk, was outstanding.

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07-14-2012, 04:47 PM
  #105
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How is it further from downtown than any other place in Pittsburgh or the surrounding areas. "They don't have the transportation to get to the jobs." Please.

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07-14-2012, 05:10 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post

IN ANY CASE, that's going nowhere. Stick to the Hill District, keep religion talk out of it. It's not directly relevant to any of the problems in the Hill District if the place is anything like I think it is.
Looks like you just missed some Hill District history in your backyard, holmes.

http://web.cmoa.org/?page_id=327


Ogrezilla and Jaded, your comments inspired me to dig this info out...

For you yinzers, the Carnegie has a ton of Teenie Harris photos. I'm not sure if it's a permanent piece or something that they haul out periodically, but it's worth checking out to see what the Hill used to look like.

http://teenie.cmoa.org/

This is much more entertaining and educational than reading a hockey message board trying to reduce 50+ years of history into a talking point (or a crazy, largely fact-free political/religious rant).

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07-14-2012, 07:49 PM
  #107
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my two cents is the community is using a reparations from two generations ago. Very few if any are around who have a claim of dislocation. Rainbow collalition was more about extortion than service for the community. The solution is not extortion. The arena generated tax revenue that benefitted the hill. Just not the same people paying taxes. The decline in the hill was not because the hurricane bar closed. By the way business owners sold out for money. Nothing was taken except a loss for the remaining residents of black businesses that were compensated and real estate owners as well. The amusment tax doesn;t benefit me, but it does help the city.

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07-15-2012, 01:59 AM
  #108
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Dang I feel like I caused all of this haha. Anyway, there was some good discussion in here. Also a lot of bull**** but what else is new? I suppose this is more interesting than where Semin and Doan are going to sign. Carry on...

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07-15-2012, 06:25 AM
  #109
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The Civic Arena was not built for the Penguins. The Penguins bear no responsibility to the original destruction of the Hill.

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07-15-2012, 10:07 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Proud View Post
The Civic Arena was not built for the Penguins. The Penguins bear no responsibility to the original destruction of the Hill.
That is a very simplistic view. On it's face I agree but things don't work like that. They still inhabited the building and chose 50 years later to build their new arena in the same community. I'd say they have SOME responsibility to help the community and let them be at the table for how the area where the Civic Arena stood is redeveloped.

You can argue they have already done their part by employing many Hill District residents and I definitely think that's a great thing. The only other thing I'd like to see is that the Hill residents get a say or at least are a part of discussions on how the area is redeveloped. The Penguins, by all accounts are a classy organization that cares about their role in the city so I don't see that as a problem.

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07-15-2012, 10:31 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
That is a very simplistic view. On it's face I agree but things don't work like that. They still inhabited the building and chose 50 years later to build their new arena in the same community. I'd say they have SOME responsibility to help the community and let them be at the table for how the area where the Civic Arena stood is redeveloped.

You can argue they have already done their part by employing many Hill District residents and I definitely think that's a great thing. The only other thing I'd like to see is that the Hill residents get a say or at least are a part of discussions on how the area is redeveloped. The Penguins, by all accounts are a classy organization that cares about their role in the city so I don't see that as a problem.
I basically agree. I don't think the Penguins should HAVE to help out, but it would sure be nice if they did

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07-15-2012, 03:00 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I basically agree. I don't think the Penguins should HAVE to help out, but it would sure be nice if they did
It would be nice if every business in Ross Twp paid money towards upgades to my neighborhood as well, but it would be ridiculous for me to go out and ask for it. The arena was built 50 years ago, and I'm sure a large portion of the residents were not even alive at that point. Like anyone else, if you do not like where you live, or feel that the neighborhood doesn't offer things you deem nessessary, you move! Now I realize that this may take time and effort to do, but many have done it before, so there is proof that this is a viable option.

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07-15-2012, 04:12 PM
  #113
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The best thing the Penguins can do for the Hill District as a whole is reconnect Wylie and Webster to the CBD.. Put a decked park overtop of the Crosstown Blvd (as they've shown in renderings) and develop the land in between based on market needs. Hand-outs aren't going to do any neighborhood any good over the long haul.

Like someone else mentioned.. These people asking for concessions, I wonder where they were when the Civic Arena was even first built. Were they living in the Hill District? Were they even alive at the time? The people that made the decisions to build the arena AND the people directly affected by it (and other urban redevelopment projects) are probably long, long gone. We're talking 50 years ago.

I want to see the Hill thriving, not because of the residents living there, but just for the good of the city as a whole. It's a rather depressing tract in the middle of an otherwise beautiful city. It could be a great place again.

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07-15-2012, 08:19 PM
  #114
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http://multimedia.post-gazette.com/T...na/default.asp

This link helps to give a very good idea of the HD before and after the Civic Arena.

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07-15-2012, 09:07 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Divine Sire View Post
http://multimedia.post-gazette.com/T...na/default.asp

This link helps to give a very good idea of the HD before and after the Civic Arena.
That's awesome.

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07-16-2012, 03:50 AM
  #116
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The best thing the Penguins can do for the Hill District as a whole is reconnect Wylie and Webster to the CBD.. Put a decked park overtop of the Crosstown Blvd (as they've shown in renderings) and develop the land in between based on market needs. Hand-outs aren't going to do any neighborhood any good over the long haul.

Like someone else mentioned.. These people asking for concessions, I wonder where they were when the Civic Arena was even first built. Were they living in the Hill District? Were they even alive at the time? The people that made the decisions to build the arena AND the people directly affected by it (and other urban redevelopment projects) are probably long, long gone. We're talking 50 years ago.

I want to see the Hill thriving, not because of the residents living there, but just for the good of the city as a whole. It's a rather depressing tract in the middle of an otherwise beautiful city. It could be a great place again.
A lot of this post makes a lot of sense:

While I don't feel the Penguins owe any certain dollar amount to community leaders, the team--as well as the city/state--should work to make that area vibrant and beautiful once again. It's a sad area to go through--there's Duquesne University, a lovely campus, a fantastic hospital (Mercy), a gorgeous, state of the art arena--surrounded by low income housing, boarded up businesses, etc. It would be good for the team, the city, and the Hill District to properly develop the land around the arena.

That said--meet with the team, look at their plans, see what they have in mind, and go from there. Don't go to the media complaining about $1/car and rambling something about Sidney Crosby (who on his own has already helped the HD because the team remained here, increasing tax revenues for the city, allowing a new arena to be built, creating jobs, etc, etc.). Work with the team, don't create an unnecessary confrontation.

Is it right of HD leaders to try to revive their community as best they can? Of course. But it's all about tact, going about it the right way. This wasn't the right way.

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07-16-2012, 05:10 AM
  #117
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Someone said reparations...is that a joke? These activists are asking for a 1$ tax that would lead to "$600,000 a year raised by the fee [which could be used to] pay to repair the homes of poor neighbors, upgrade children’s playgrounds and enhance public transportation for senior citizens in the Centre Avenue business corridor."

I think those are typical government duties, by that I mean the maintenance of playgrounds and enhanced public transportation. This is the way the world works, businesses enter a community and are expected to pay taxes to the government that will be used (in a perfect world) to build roads, improve communities and provide public services. Sometimes the community looks directly to the business and asks for something (whether it is a tax like this, community outreach, when a community tries to prevent a strip club from opening, etc). The community has a vested interest in what is going on in their neck of the woods and I don't think it's ludicrous at all, in fact, I don't think the majority of the posters here bothered to read what the article actually says because if they did, they would notice how much money the city is spending on the Penguins. And that's fine because the city has an interest in helping keep the Penguins happy and in the city of Pittsburgh.

It may not be what you believe is right but government, business and private citizens behave this way all the time. Big multinational corporations talk to elected officials 365 days a year lobbying for government money for nothing, government asks business to behave a certain way and do certain things and private citizens work to have the government make businesses do things.

While 600,000 is not going to solve the problems they have in the Hill District, it's not wrong to ask for that tax in order to help improve their environment a little. I don't think they were criticizing Crosby - they were saying that the team signed him for that much money and they are getting a ton of subsidies so why can't they pay a 1$ tax? It's a tactic to get what they want, not a personal attack on Sid.

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07-16-2012, 07:51 AM
  #118
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I'm not sure if the Pens gave the Hill money it would change anything. The city ignores that section of the city. Dilapidated houses are left standing, sidewalks are cracked, and weeds are overgrown. This also goes back to the people. For a section of the city to look beautiful, the residents have to care. With the Hill having a ton of section 8 housing, those residents don't have to care about anything.

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07-16-2012, 08:03 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
Someone said reparations...is that a joke? These activists are asking for a 1$ tax that would lead to "$600,000 a year raised by the fee [which could be used to] pay to repair the homes of poor neighbors, upgrade children’s playgrounds and enhance public transportation for senior citizens in the Centre Avenue business corridor."

I think those are typical government duties, by that I mean the maintenance of playgrounds and enhanced public transportation. This is the way the world works, businesses enter a community and are expected to pay taxes to the government that will be used (in a perfect world) to build roads, improve communities and provide public services. Sometimes the community looks directly to the business and asks for something (whether it is a tax like this, community outreach, when a community tries to prevent a strip club from opening, etc). The community has a vested interest in what is going on in their neck of the woods and I don't think it's ludicrous at all, in fact, I don't think the majority of the posters here bothered to read what the article actually says because if they did, they would notice how much money the city is spending on the Penguins. And that's fine because the city has an interest in helping keep the Penguins happy and in the city of Pittsburgh.

It may not be what you believe is right but government, business and private citizens behave this way all the time. Big multinational corporations talk to elected officials 365 days a year lobbying for government money for nothing, government asks business to behave a certain way and do certain things and private citizens work to have the government make businesses do things.

While 600,000 is not going to solve the problems they have in the Hill District, it's not wrong to ask for that tax in order to help improve their environment a little. I don't think they were criticizing Crosby - they were saying that the team signed him for that much money and they are getting a ton of subsidies so why can't they pay a 1$ tax? It's a tactic to get what they want, not a personal attack on Sid.
A solid dose of reality. Thank you sir.

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07-16-2012, 08:15 AM
  #120
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I'm not sure if the Pens gave the Hill money it would change anything. The city ignores that section of the city. Dilapidated houses are left standing, sidewalks are cracked, and weeds are overgrown. This also goes back to the people. For a section of the city to look beautiful, the residents have to care. With the Hill having a ton of section 8 housing, those residents don't have to care about anything.
This is also true, especially the bold part.

I live in the city of Cleveland in an area that was a once time thriving community. There is a 100 year old West Side Market in the area that was/is one of the best food markets of it's kind in the country. The area in the last 20 years has made a huge comeback. New businesses have opened up, a vibrant restaurant and bar scene now exists, new construction of condos and townhomes are popping up nearly every year, etc. The one part that I appreciate the most is that there is still affordable housing in the area and they have maintained the significant cultural landmarks, architecture, etc of the area. It is now a community with young professionals, familes, and long time residents and all can reasonably co-exist.

Many of these changes have come as a result of the local CDC (community development corporations). They have worked in partnerships with business and government to get grants and encourage growth. That is all well and good, but if the people in the area don't have a vested interest in the community, things can fall back to where they were. This is where the role of the average resident comes into play. The neighborhood block clubs in my community are a big part of keeping the area clean and safe. It is up to every resident to give a crap about where they live.

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07-16-2012, 08:22 AM
  #121
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Money is not going to solve the problems in the Hill District. Didn't we already give them money to build a shopping center - just to see it robbed and shut down?

Nope, money is not the answer. Shut down the section 8 housing and allow someone to develop the land, that would be a much better solution IMO. It has a very good location actually, someone could make a nice area out of it.

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07-16-2012, 08:42 AM
  #122
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Money is not going to solve the problems in the Hill District. Didn't we already give them money to build a shopping center - just to see it robbed and shut down?

Nope, money is not the answer. Shut down the section 8 housing and allow someone to develop the land, that would be a much better solution IMO. It has a very good location actually, someone could make a nice area out of it.
Just curious, because I see this kind of statement quite often, what do you propose we do with these people once we "shut down the section 8 housing"? I mean poor people on subsidized housing have to live somewhere.

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07-16-2012, 09:18 AM
  #123
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This is also true, especially the bold part.

I live in the city of Cleveland in an area that was a once time thriving community. There is a 100 year old West Side Market in the area that was/is one of the best food markets of it's kind in the country. The area in the last 20 years has made a huge comeback. New businesses have opened up, a vibrant restaurant and bar scene now exists, new construction of condos and townhomes are popping up nearly every year, etc. The one part that I appreciate the most is that there is still affordable housing in the area and they have maintained the significant cultural landmarks, architecture, etc of the area. It is now a community with young professionals, familes, and long time residents and all can reasonably co-exist.

Many of these changes have come as a result of the local CDC (community development corporations). They have worked in partnerships with business and government to get grants and encourage growth. That is all well and good, but if the people in the area don't have a vested interest in the community, things can fall back to where they were. This is where the role of the average resident comes into play. The neighborhood block clubs in my community are a big part of keeping the area clean and safe. It is up to every resident to give a crap about where they live.
Right, and this has been proven true dozens of times in the city of Pittsburgh. My mom and dad grew up in Mt Washington. My parents moved us away from the city 25 years ago or so, and my mom never really went back. When she grew up her house in Mt Washington overlooked the Southside, and the Southside was a place you didn't go. It was steel mills, and nothing good was down there. When I started to go to Duquesne, she came over one day and I took her to the Southside works. She was absolutely blown away, and now the Southside is one of her favorite places to go.

Lawrenceville is going through a renaissance right now. It's becoming a mini-Southside. A lot of little coffee shops and restaurants are going in, and a younger crowd is moving in.

My personal opinion is that the Northside some time in the near future will see a similar thing happen. There's a ton of big old properties to renovate and turn into upper scale housing for professionals.

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07-16-2012, 10:39 PM
  #124
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Initially before Consol was built, the Hill District various reps spoke to a 10 million dollar payment as reperations for the damage done to the Hill in dislocating residents in the early sixties. Larger Corporations who open a location generally with do things for goodwill purposes with in the community. The Penguins are open to being a good corporate citizen. But not to fund programs and take the place of Government based initiatives. So the Pens will look for investment oportunities that they share with local based enterprises. But to just hand out money, I don;t think the Pens will do that. As to adding a cost to parking that goes exclusively to the Hill, no way. I pay a parking tax and an amusment tax to attend Penguin or Pirate or Steeler games. That money helps fund city programs and upkeep as is. Having a surtax that benefits only one community that comes directly out of my pocket is not something that people can get behind. That is extortion.

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07-16-2012, 11:14 PM
  #125
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People from the hill demanding handouts?! Never! Shockingly, the "activists" have all this free time on their hands. Pittsburgh would be such a better place if the hill district was leveled. Young professionals should be living there, it could be such a great place with its proximity to downtown. I went to duquesne law school and had some run ins with locals. I have 0 sympathy for them.
I know a lot of people working Downtown and went/go to Duquesne that lived in Crawford Square (the first set of housing closest to Console/Mellon), there's nothing stopping anyone from applying.

They are very, very nice apartments for a low price considering the proximity to Downtown. I knew people living in a 2 bedroom place with 2 people for around $400 each that was LOADS nicer than the apartment I was renting at Penn State for two years that was $485 each for 4 people in a 2 bedroom.

Actually, me and my girlfriend thought about living there now that I am working downtown. Only the ones closest to Console though.

It'd be a dream come true to walk home from work, eat dinner, then walk down to Console and see if I can buy from scalpers after the game starts.

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