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Do the Habs need defense depth?

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07-15-2012, 07:41 PM
  #101
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
I would. Definitely over Diaz, as he, Weber, Kaberle, Markov and even Subban are just the same players with different skill levels.
Diaz is ahead of Weber. Unless Kaberle comes back in better shape, Diaz is also ahead of him.

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07-15-2012, 08:49 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
How is he plus 46 over the last 2 years if he can't play defense? He is second among boston defensemen in +/- .......

Chara is plus = 66
McQuaid plus = 46
Boychuck plus = 42
Ference plus = 31
Seidenberg plus = 18

So I have proved to you that he is tough 26 nhl fights 2 loses, that he is big 6-4 210
that he can play defense +46 in 2 years, that he has a great contract he is making under 1.6 million and is signed for 3 more years(franky B gets $1.5) plus he has played in big games and has a cup ring already. And to boot other posters on here would also love to have him and said he is the perfect type of dman needed here in Montreal !!!!!! JUST ADMIT IT YOU LOST HIS FIGHT.

PS SMART ASS AMSWERS DON'T WIN YOU FIGHTS !(Here's a crazy idea about what makes a defenseman good, playing good defense I know, I know, it's a crazy thought) THE FACTS AND KNOWING HOCKEY PLAYERS AND THE TYPE OF PLAYERS THAT TEAMMATES WANT TO PLAY WITH DO.
Virtually every Bruin, forward as well as Dmen, was a plus. Please don't overrate scrubs on strong teams. Put him on the Blue Jackets and you'd get an entirely different picture.

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07-16-2012, 09:31 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What fight did I lose? McQuaid is not that good of a defenseman. Simple, clear, and correct.

By your logic, McQuaid is the 2nd best Dman in Boston, because he's 2nd in terms of +/-, which is retarded. That stat has a lot more to do about the team than the individual. It's like the GAA for goalies.
See once again you are making things up, I never said McQuaid was the second best defenseman in Boston. I was proving to you that he can play defense and his +/- wasn'y just a number he had because of the team he plays on. So I have been giving you stats and others have also told you McQuaid is a good defenseman and a perfect fit for MONTREAL but all you have done is say he isn't good and you have nothing to prove your statement. come on try and make this a fair fight and prove something you say.

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07-16-2012, 09:37 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
+ - is not the end all be all. I agree with that. It is but one indicator of a player's efficacy. Probably more important to DMen than forwards.

With all that said, I would take McQuaid over pretty much any DMan we have with the exception of Markov, Gorges and Subban. He has what I like to call "intangibles" upside.
I agree southern hab I think we need atleast 2 defensemen that can hit/fight and do the little things to protect his goalie/teammates. Remember when Souray and Rivet were on the team and a guy would hit Saku with a so-so hit, they would stop whatever they were doing and fight that guy right then. It was great hockey to watch, it showed they stuck up for the smaller skilled guys, the goalie and there captain and that is what we need to have happen now with the HABS

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07-16-2012, 09:42 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
I would. Definitely over Diaz, as he, Weber, Kaberle, Markov and even Subban are just the same players with different skill levels.
See Krisse that is what I am saying we don't need another player with the same skill set as Markov,Subban,Kaberle,and Weber. Daiz just isn't a good fit we can't have all the same type of defensemen you can't build a team like that. We need defensemen that can do the little things like hitting/blocking shots/sticking up for teammates/play on the pk...... Once again McQuaid is perfect for the 3rd pairing on Montreal he brings all of those things plus he is young/big and cheap.

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07-16-2012, 10:05 AM
  #106
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
See once again you are making things up, I never said McQuaid was the second best defenseman in Boston. I was proving to you that he can play defense and his +/- wasn'y just a number he had because of the team he plays on. So I have been giving you stats and others have also told you McQuaid is a good defenseman and a perfect fit for MONTREAL but all you have done is say he isn't good and you have nothing to prove your statement. come on try and make this a fair fight and prove something you say.
I'm starting to doubt you a lot...

I said ''by your logic'', McQuaid is the 3rd best Dman in Boston. The reason I said that is because your argument that McQuaid is a good D is based solely on the +/- stat. So, if that stat is what represents ''good'' defense, then him having the 2nd best rating would mean he's the 3rd best Dman. Flawed thinking, right? Yes, just as flawed as believing having a good + rating means being a good Dmen.
A team with good offensive depth as well as having a strong defensive system, like Boston, will get that stat inflated. It really is the most useless hockey stat.
Heck, Pouliot finished with +18. Some of the worst - last year : Tom Pyatt, Emelin, Bouwmeester, Streit, Fowler, E.Staal. The +/- rating is NOT representative of defensive skill, at all.
The fact I have to explain this to you is quite alarming.

I already explained to you why he simply wasn't that good. Just go back and read.

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07-16-2012, 10:14 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
See Krisse that is what I am saying we don't need another player with the same skill set as Markov,Subban,Kaberle,and Weber. Daiz just isn't a good fit we can't have all the same type of defensemen you can't build a team like that. We need defensemen that can do the little things like hitting/blocking shots/sticking up for teammates/play on the pk...... Once again McQuaid is perfect for the 3rd pairing on Montreal he brings all of those things plus he is young/big and cheap.
Why are you still writing ''Daiz''?? You do know it's DIAZ right?

Diaz is AHEAD of Kaberle and Weber, that's what you seem to not understand, and that's what I was responding to.
BTW, Diaz blocked more shots than McQuaid despite playing 13 less games. Also, McQuaid is not a good PK player, and gets little ice time on it. I already brought this up.

The only thing McQuaid can do better than Diaz is hit/fight, that's it.

Now, if you want to suggest we need more rugged Dman, that's fine. I would move Kaberle and Weber ahead of Diaz, and I'd aim for someone better than McQuaid who's also not already under contract.

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07-16-2012, 10:25 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why are you still writing ''Daiz''?? You do know it's DIAZ right?

Diaz is AHEAD of Kaberle and Weber, that's what you seem to not understand, and that's what I was responding to.
BTW, Diaz blocked more shots than McQuaid despite playing 13 less games. Also, McQuaid is not a good PK player, and gets little ice time on it. I already brought this up.

The only thing McQuaid can do better than Diaz is hit/fight, that's it.

Now, if you want to suggest we need more rugged Dman, that's fine. I would move Kaberle and Weber ahead of Diaz, and I'd aim for someone better than McQuaid who's also not already under contract.
Come on Krisse you are a big habs fan like myself right?? How can you stand to watch Price/Subban get punched in the face and have the defensemen just watch it and be glad it isn't them getting hit? I know you know we need some big tough defensemen. We need a guy like Quintal,Odelien or Rivet. DAiz can't do the job here in Montreal that we need done end of story

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07-16-2012, 10:31 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
Come on Krisse you are a big habs fan like myself right?? How can you stand to watch Price/Subban get punched in the face and have the defensemen just watch it and be glad it isn't them getting hit? I know you know we need some big tough defensemen. We need a guy like Quintal,Odelien or Rivet. DAiz can't do the job here in Montreal that we need done end of story
You should really stop including Rivet in your arguments. You make it sound like he dropped them every second game. He didn't. The guy was the biggest passenger there ever was

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07-16-2012, 10:36 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
At this point, I hope Kaberle had an epiphany over the summer and finds himself. 2 years ago, he was a legit top 4 dman. If he can return to form, we have a top 4 that is legit.

The reality is it's a big step to assume Emelin or Diaz can jump into a top 4 role in their 2nd season.
If Kaberle return to form we would have a top pairing defensemen that is almost on par with a prime Markov. However chances of this happening are low so i'd take a 50% improvement and be happy.

Best case scenario would be both Markov and Kabs back in their 05-09 form. That would be sick but we shouldn't get our expectations that high i guess.

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07-16-2012, 10:37 AM
  #111
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If we're really going after Hjalmarsson, that's a glut of defensemen. We'll have Markov, Emelin, Subban, Gorges, Hjalmarsson and Bouillon. I'm sure Bouls didn't sign here to be a 7th guy. What happens to Diaz and Kaberle? Weber's on his way out, but those two?

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07-16-2012, 11:10 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
If we're really going after Hjalmarsson, that's a glut of defensemen. We'll have Markov, Emelin, Subban, Gorges, Hjalmarsson and Bouillon. I'm sure Bouls didn't sign here to be a 7th guy. What happens to Diaz and Kaberle? Weber's on his way out, but those two?
Depth signing to please the masses. Nothing more

Even without adding a D in the mix, I'd argue that he's already #7

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07-16-2012, 11:12 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
Come on Krisse you are a big habs fan like myself right?? How can you stand to watch Price/Subban get punched in the face and have the defensemen just watch it and be glad it isn't them getting hit? I know you know we need some big tough defensemen. We need a guy like Quintal,Odelien or Rivet. DAiz can't do the job here in Montreal that we need done end of story
There's White, Armstrong, Moen and Prust.
Prust lead the NHL in fights. That's enough. There's also Bouillon that has no problem sticking up for his goalie or teammate, and won't back down despite his smaller size.

What we need is a top 4 D, not a bottom pairing guy that is only good for fighting.
Odelein, absolutely. Quintal and Rivet, no way in hell.

I'm a huge habs fan, but I don't get overly emotional and go into a sissy fit because Price or Subban get pushed around. These guys are our two best players, they will be the target of the opposition, and they are big enough to take it as well as dish it.

I don't want a poor Dman to take up a roster spot and get into fights. We only have 6 Dmen dressed, we have 12 forwards. If we're gonna have guys dropping them and sticking up for their teammates, might as well be forwards.

Yes, we have room for DIAZ. That's why he was re-signed. If we move one of our guys, it better be for someone better, not freaking McQuaid.

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07-16-2012, 11:19 AM
  #114
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Who cares about them getting punched in the face? What the team should care about is players like Lucic & Hartnell charging the net. And it ain't those dmen:

Markov
Gorges
Kaberle
Diaz
Weber
Bouillon
Emelin

Who are going to make any difference with that. That was a reason why we got Gill remember?

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07-16-2012, 12:00 PM
  #115
habsroom
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
You should really stop including Rivet in your arguments. You make it sound like he dropped them every second game. He didn't. The guy was the biggest passenger there ever was
He had 68 NHL fights and another 22 AHL fights that is 90 pro fights I think that is alot of fighting for an NHL defenseman that played 20 minutes a night.

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07-16-2012, 12:01 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Who cares about them getting punched in the face? What the team should care about is players like Lucic & Hartnell charging the net. And it ain't those dmen:

Markov
Gorges
Kaberle
Diaz
Weber
Bouillon
Emelin

Who are going to make any difference with that. That was a reason why we got Gill remember?
It was? He didn't prevent any of those guys from getting to the net.

And if we have Gill on the ice versus top talent at ES, we're not in good shape.

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07-16-2012, 12:03 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Who cares about them getting punched in the face? What the team should care about is players like Lucic & Hartnell charging the net. And it ain't those dmen:

Markov
Gorges
Kaberle
Diaz
Weber
Bouillon
Emelin

Who are going to make any difference with that. That was a reason why we got Gill remember?
I agree with you !!!!! great point

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07-16-2012, 12:05 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's White, Armstrong, Moen and Prust.
Prust lead the NHL in fights. That's enough. There's also Bouillon that has no problem sticking up for his goalie or teammate, and won't back down despite his smaller size.

What we need is a top 4 D, not a bottom pairing guy that is only good for fighting.
Odelein, absolutely. Quintal and Rivet, no way in hell.

I'm a huge habs fan, but I don't get overly emotional and go into a sissy fit because Price or Subban get pushed around. These guys are our two best players, they will be the target of the opposition, and they are big enough to take it as well as dish it.

I don't want a poor Dman to take up a roster spot and get into fights. We only have 6 Dmen dressed, we have 12 forwards. If we're gonna have guys dropping them and sticking up for their teammates, might as well be forwards.

Yes, we have room for DIAZ. That's why he was re-signed. If we move one of our guys, it better be for someone better, not freaking McQuaid.

White /Moen/Purst/Armstrong(He couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag) don't play defense they play forward. WE NEED SOME BIG /TOUGH DEFENSEMEN krisse WE CAN'T WIN WITHOUT THEM, WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TALENT SO WE HAVE TO BE TOUGH TO PLAY AGAINST.

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07-16-2012, 12:32 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
He had 68 NHL fights and another 22 AHL fights that is 90 pro fights I think that is alot of fighting for an NHL defenseman that played 20 minutes a night.
Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but according to hockeyfights.com he fought 54 times in the NHL (including postseason) during his 992-game career

Can hardly be considered a brawler

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07-16-2012, 12:37 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
I agree southern hab I think we need atleast 2 defensemen that can hit/fight and do the little things to protect his goalie/teammates. Remember when Souray and Rivet were on the team and a guy would hit Saku with a so-so hit, they would stop whatever they were doing and fight that guy right then. It was great hockey to watch, it showed they stuck up for the smaller skilled guys, the goalie and there captain and that is what we need to have happen now with the HABS
I think that we will get to that point eventually under Bergevin. He was a hard nosed hockey player and he understands that a team full of small non-physical DMen is a ticket to never winning a Cup. Price can only do so much if the D cannot clear the other team's forwards from the crease.

And Price should never have been cross checked by Lucic and then watch Lucic skate away with a smile on his face because no one challenged him.

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07-16-2012, 12:53 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but according to hockeyfights.com he fought 54 times in the NHL (including postseason) during his 992-game career

Can hardly be considered a brawler
http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Player...px?Player=3826

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07-16-2012, 12:55 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I think that we will get to that point eventually under Bergevin. He was a hard nosed hockey player and he understands that a team full of small non-physical DMen is a ticket to never winning a Cup. Price can only do so much if the D cannot clear the other team's forwards from the crease.

And Price should never have been cross checked by Lucic and then watch Lucic skate away with a smile on his face because no one challenged him.
It is sad that no one stepped up to the plate but it is ever worst that management had no one in place to step up to the plate. Do you remember Horton and Lucic taking runs at Subban? I was sure he was going to get hurt but still no one steeped in. Oh well Purst will step up this year but that still isn't enough.

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07-20-2012, 03:08 PM
  #123
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bergevin will move kaberle for sure he needs 1 more veteran d-man who can run the powerplay if markov can't play full season you can't be 29th or 3oth on powerplay like they were last year,go after either mark streit or ryan whitney both have 1 year left on their contracts.

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07-20-2012, 03:16 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by hockeypuck191 View Post
bergevin will move kaberle for sure he needs 1 more veteran d-man who can run the powerplay if markov can't play full season you can't be 29th or 3oth on powerplay like they were last year,go after either mark streit or ryan whitney both have 1 year left on their contracts.
Isn't that exactly why they picked up Kaberle? I don't see that being what we move Kaberle to acquire.

I'm fine with him gone, but the glaring need is a big, tough D-man. And those don't grow on trees.

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07-20-2012, 03:55 PM
  #125
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O'Byrne maybe? After watching him (non-star, big, fairly fast, hits, blocks shots, sometimes looks awkward) get run out of town on a rail I worry what will happen to Tinordi. Watch Tinordi have a couple of awkward big guy moments and be flamed out.

O'Byrne may not be great but he was exactly what the habs needed last year. And he did well with the Avs (played beside an offensive D against good players, hit, blocked shots, wasn't noticeable, good +/- relative to team yes I know it's a hated stat I don't know his corsis etc.).

The habs have Subban, Markov, and Gorges. And lots of fairly effective non-physical offensive types. And Emelin who tends to get killed on his off side. The D would be acceptable with one more physical stay at home type. Doesn't look like they will get one this year, maybe in mid-season if the team surprises early.

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