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2012-13 is a transition year. Bergevin is focusing on 2013-14.

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Old
07-16-2012, 04:55 PM
  #26
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
And then when we make the playoffs this year we'll bump this one....
Being in transition does not mean you can't make the playoffs. Ottawa was in a transition year last year and made the playoffs. Frankly, they're still in transition.

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07-16-2012, 04:57 PM
  #27
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And since we're talking about 2013-14, I think we could then have this kind of starting line-up :

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Gallagher - Plekanec - Gionta
Leblanc - Eller - Prust
Moen - Galchenyuk - Bournival

Ex : White, Dumont

I really, really, really love how this looks. That's a pretty strong center line. There's a very good mix of youth and experience, grit and finesse, offensive talent and 2-way players, etc. (also 4 Quebecers!)

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Beaulieu - Diaz

Ex : Tinordi

Of course, that's if we are able to get rid of Gomez, Bourque and Kaberle. At worst, it will be cheaper next summer to buy out Gomez and Kaberle. Bourque could also be kept on the team if he gets a good season in 2012-13.

That might not be a very competitive team already in 2013-14, so I understand why some people say it will be a transition year again. But I think we will finally have the core of what the future Habs team will be.

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07-16-2012, 04:59 PM
  #28
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Like it or not the CBA issue is going to be a major factor.

If there is a major drop in the cap then one or two things have to be included:

Pain free buyouts or a commesurate salary rollback. Possibly a combination of the two.

Plainly put, there are to many teams above 60M in cap, and especially to many above 65M for that not to be the case. Teams won't vote to screw themselves over and they are too big and powerful of a block not to defend themselves from being screwed by others.

Canadiens would obviously prefer that more of the cap reduction is done by buyout and I think there are enough teams with contracts they'd like to drop that it would be a popular option. Salary rollback would be fine too, but less advantageous.

On the other hand, all this does is remove the Canadiens existing spending advantage as the second most profitable team in the league.

Best possible outcome for the Habs is they get a combination rollback and at least one no-cap buyout. A free Gomez buyout will net them at least 10% of the cap back. 2 buyouts is also great because Gomez + Kaberle is at least 16.5% of the cap. Montreal would also be in a position to bid for bought out players at what will be pretty low prices if this happens.

League also wants to keep the salary floor high rather than low and there isn't going to be many options for teams to get dead cap space to push themselves to the floor. Even without a buyout Gomez might be easily dump-able to an Islanders or Florida.


The new CBA likely won't be good for Montreal because it's going to blunt spending advantages, which particularly screws a high tax team with money. But its very unlikely they get screwed and pretty likely they make out better than other high cap teams because they have contracts they'd most like to get rid of. Most of Vancouver, San Jose or Boston's cap is invested in guys they'd like to keep.


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 07-16-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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Old
07-16-2012, 05:44 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Being in transition does not mean you can't make the playoffs. Ottawa was in a transition year last year and made the playoffs. Frankly, they're still in transition.
This. Seems more likely to me that last year was the fluke/ worst case scenario and I would expect a playoff run this year. This team is in better shape than others. You have the goalie, if Markov comes back the D is solid, and you have talent at the C position. Prust, Cole and Bourque bring some grit. If the coaching is competent, I dont see why you arent a playoff team and I'm a Bruins fan.

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07-16-2012, 05:57 PM
  #30
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This. Seems more likely to me that last year was the fluke/ worst case scenario and I would expect a playoff run this year. This team is in better shape than others. You have the goalie, if Markov comes back the D is solid, and you have talent at the C position. Prust, Cole and Bourque bring some grit. If the coaching is competent, I dont see why you arent a playoff team and I'm a Bruins fan.
Montreal had to have a perfect storm of bad breaks to end up where they did. Its actually pretty likely that they'll have a significantly worse lineup and even play worse overall and yet still end up way better on the standings. As I always like to bring up, they were only -2 in actual hockey GF-GA last year. They could have easily have been in the playoffs over the likes of Florida even playing terrible hockey.

Quality of lineup or team play hasn't corelated very strongly to results in Montreal lately. The 2009-10 squad was terrible and they made the ECF. Their best team since the nineties was in 2010-11 and they finished 6th and went out in the first round.

I think 2008-09 was more talented than 2007-08 but the lesser team won the conference in the regular season and went to the second round in the playoffs.

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07-16-2012, 06:05 PM
  #31
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My guess is both 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 are transition seasons. In the summer of 2014, Gomez, Gionta, Markov and Kaberle contracts are over.

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07-16-2012, 06:08 PM
  #32
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"Transition year" is the politically correct version of "Nathan MacKinnon" which is the politically correct version of the most vulgar form, "tank".

Let's call things by what they are.

This is a tanking and development year. Gomez, Bourque, and Kaberle are going to be showcased for deadline trades. Our prospects will be getting some icetime. And we'll probably be drafting top-5.

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07-16-2012, 06:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
"Transition year" is the politically correct version of "Nathan MacKinnon" which is the politically correct version of the most vulgar form, "tank".

Let's call things by what they are.

This is a tanking and development year. Gomez, Bourque, and Kaberle are going to be showcased for deadline trades. Our prospects will be getting some icetime. And we'll probably be drafting top-5.
It isn't tanking if we didn't actively get worst Bergevin actually addressed some needs on the bottom 6, 2nd PK wave and depth on the defense. What I love is that he didn't break the bank in doing so. If healthy, this team could maybe compete for a playoff spot. If Boston and Ottawa get the injury bug, who knows how the North East could shape up? Either way, as long as Bergevin doesn't trade some 2nd round picks for aging 3rd liners, I'll be happy.

But there is no reason to even discuss this, as there won't be hockey

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07-16-2012, 06:40 PM
  #34
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Ottawa was supposed to be terrible last season.

You just never know. I don't have much faith when I simply look at it on paper. But the thing that gives me hope is that the Habs lost a lot of close games last season. The bottom six is going to play hard to set the tone and I also bet Gionta blames himself for last season. He will play with a chip on his shoulder like he did his first season here.

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07-16-2012, 06:43 PM
  #35
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And that is in spite of Gionta, not because of him. Gio is a fine player, one of the many pieces we might want to keep to be competitive. He ain't a game breaker, but then again, you better fire a lot of players if youV want only to hold game breakers.



Somewhat agreed. Except for Gomez, we can potentially trade any of them to a needy team if they get going reasonably.



Disagree except for Gomez. Bourque is big and responsible defensively, Kaberle might be unidimensional, but he ain't useless. Just dump Gomez.

Markov ain't junk, nor is Gio. Kaberle and Bourque are sub-par, but not beyond salvage.



Agreed. And the beauty of it is, in 2 years Gio, Gomez, Markov & Kaberle will be off the books, so we can buy whomever we want.

But in the meanwhile, why can't we try to make work what we have and offer a quality spectacle? Fans don't deserve washing your hands off the show just yet.

Plus, if you prove you can be a bit competitive, you might get extra return for all the parts you might want to trade within the next years. You sure won't make Kab or Gio more desirable if you make them play a crappy team with crappy results.
Markov, I'm one of his biggest fans, but there is a good siZe chance he might even be worse than junk lol. I don't expect it, but if he doesn't play, he's beyond junk.

I don't think the fans deserve anything if it gets in the way of the ultimate goal, signing another inflated contract to good, but not great players is one of biggest contributors to our current problems, perhaps we should learn from our past mistakes and aim not to repeat them.

IMO staying the course and waiting to utilize UFA on our terms is the way to go and I have no doubt it will lead us to a cup final quicker than patchwork, constantly spinning our tires method. I don't want semin, Jagr, doan, no Ty.

Watching the prospects develop is entertaining enough for me, I don't care about the standings right now.

Its looking like molson is on board for at least a partial rebuild and that's great news.

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07-16-2012, 06:45 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Funny because I'm one of the more "we have to get bigger/tougher" guys on the board and have no issue with Gio. He's a small guy but he's built like a tank. I really like him...and he's our captain so I support him.



I don't get this. He has won before. Why can't we win with him? He has a rich contract...and so does Cole....and Markov and so many other players on this team.

I think he has a good amount of hockey left in him. Unless there was an overpayment, I wouldn' trade him.
Your 2nd paragraph is exactly the problem.

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07-16-2012, 06:50 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Like it or not the CBA issue is going to be a major factor.

If there is a major drop in the cap then one or two things have to be included:

Pain free buyouts or a commesurate salary rollback. Possibly a combination of the two.

Plainly put, there are to many teams above 60M in cap, and especially to many above 65M for that not to be the case. Teams won't vote to screw themselves over and they are too big and powerful of a block not to defend themselves from being screwed by others.

Canadiens would obviously prefer that more of the cap reduction is done by buyout and I think there are enough teams with contracts they'd like to drop that it would be a popular option. Salary rollback would be fine too, but less advantageous.

On the other hand, all this does is remove the Canadiens existing spending advantage as the second most profitable team in the league.

Best possible outcome for the Habs is they get a combination rollback and at least one no-cap buyout. A free Gomez buyout will net them at least 10% of the cap back. 2 buyouts is also great because Gomez + Kaberle is at least 16.5% of the cap. Montreal would also be in a position to bid for bought out players at what will be pretty low prices if this happens.

League also wants to keep the salary floor high rather than low and there isn't going to be many options for teams to get dead cap space to push themselves to the floor. Even without a buyout Gomez might be easily dump-able to an Islanders or Florida.


The new CBA likely won't be good for Montreal because it's going to blunt spending advantages, which particularly screws a high tax team with money. But its very unlikely they get screwed and pretty likely they make out better than other high cap teams because they have contracts they'd most like to get rid of. Most of Vancouver, San Jose or Boston's cap is invested in guys they'd like to keep.

The habs will not be buying out Gomez and they certainly won't be buying out kaberle along with him, you think molson wants tO give his money away, they could allow 20 buyouts, it isn't happening, it's not as simple as erasing his name off the roster. I can't believe you went through the time to post that.

The habs could simply demote Gomez. A compliance buyout doesn't change anything much and were not buying 2 players out, I'd bet my house on it.

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07-16-2012, 06:58 PM
  #38
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Your 2nd paragraph is exactly the problem.
It is a problem, but why pick Gio out of all the other contracts? We're in need of a top 6 winger and you suggest trading one of our better ones?

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07-16-2012, 06:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
The habs will not be buying out Gomez and they certainly won't be buying out kaberle along with him, you think molson wants tO give his money away, they could allow 20 buyouts, it isn't happening, it's not as simple as erasing his name off the roster. I can't believe you went through the time to post that.

The habs could simply demote Gomez. A compliance buyout doesn't change anything much and were not buying 2 players out, I'd bet my house on it.
If it's to demote him in the AHL, why oh why wouldn't Bergevin do a capless buyout? 2/3 is still better than full salary.

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07-16-2012, 07:07 PM
  #40
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A lot of interesting UFA too.

Getzlaf Perry Iginla Roy Fillpulla Weiss Bouchard Zajac Hartnell Clowe Lupul Burrows Ribeiro Enstrom

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07-16-2012, 07:13 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I simply don't understand the criticism towards Gio. The guy has led the team in goals in the 2 years he was healthy. He's a hard worker, fierce competitor and has been good in the playoffs. Is it because he's captain and the Koivu fans hate that? I don't get it.
And I don't get why you think Koivu's fans hate Gionta. Its not like Gio stole Koivu's job, spot or captaincy.

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07-16-2012, 07:36 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
The habs will not be buying out Gomez and they certainly won't be buying out kaberle along with him, you think molson wants tO give his money away, they could allow 20 buyouts, it isn't happening, it's not as simple as erasing his name off the roster. I can't believe you went through the time to post that.

The habs could simply demote Gomez. A compliance buyout doesn't change anything much and were not buying 2 players out, I'd bet my house on it.
Are you daft? Or do you just not understand how an amnesty buyout works?

An amnesty buyout eliminates a contract for some fraction of the remaining dollars (exact mechanisms vary) with no cap penalty. It has all the advantages of putting a contract in the AHL, but costs equal to less amounts of money, frees up summer cap space and opens a contract spot. Its in every way better than burying a contract.

Its such a sweetheart deal for the team that its only availible in such a situation where the cap has gone down massively due to a new CBA. Everything I was talking about was in the context of how the new CBA may effect what the team needs to do and what options they will have.

An amnesty buyout is massively preferable to burying contracts in the AHL. The Habs would be absolute fools not to do so if they have the option. Especially since an amnesty buyout costs less to Molson than burying it in the NHL. Buyouts are a fraction of the salary, burying contracts pays them out almost in full. If amnesty buyouts are an option this time around there is zero benefit to the AHL compared to the buyout.

If the cap decreases significantly (say 60 million or less) it makes lots of sense to buyout Kaberle too as he's a significant hit for a player they don't need. They don't even need to spend the new space right away for it to be worthwhile, just keep it open.

Any scenario where the amnesty buyout is available means that cap space is going to be at a premium again.

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I can't believe you went through the time to post that.
Embarrassing. I don't like personal attacks most of the time, but since you open this door, you obviously are either ignorant or breathtakingly illogical.

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07-16-2012, 07:54 PM
  #43
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And since we're talking about 2013-14, I think we could then have this kind of starting line-up :

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Gallagher - Plekanec - Gionta
Leblanc - Eller - Prust
Moen - Galchenyuk - Bournival

Ex : White, Dumont

I really, really, really love how this looks. That's a pretty strong center line. There's a very good mix of youth and experience, grit and finesse, offensive talent and 2-way players, etc. (also 4 Quebecers!)

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Beaulieu - Diaz

Ex : Tinordi

Of course, that's if we are able to get rid of Gomez, Bourque and Kaberle. At worst, it will be cheaper next summer to buy out Gomez and Kaberle. Bourque could also be kept on the team if he gets a good season in 2012-13.

That might not be a very competitive team already in 2013-14, so I understand why some people say it will be a transition year again. But I think we will finally have the core of what the future Habs team will be.
I guess I'm the first to comment on this. Worst lineup ever

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07-16-2012, 07:56 PM
  #44
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A lot of interesting UFA too.

Getzlaf Perry Iginla Roy Fillpulla Weiss Bouchard Zajac Hartnell Clowe Lupul Burrows Ribeiro Enstrom
Most of those guys aren't making it to free agency.

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07-16-2012, 08:23 PM
  #45
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The main reason why Bergevin this year won't do much is that he doesn't know what he has on his hands. He said it during interviews, he watched maybe one Habs game last year. So he doesn't know who sucks, who should we keep, who has jumped the shark here, etc...That's the problem with having a fresh, new GM, he'll want to analyse the group before making any moves. Remember when Bob Gainey replaced André Savard, André had made a few changes and every year he would hire UFAs and when Bob came, Habs stopped making moves like Bob wanted to see what we had. When a new GM arrives, it's always almost a starting over and everything slow down. I always view it as a the President and owners buying time because when a new GM comes in there's a grace period and the fans shut up for 3 years to give the new GM time to adapt. (although this time I don't see it happening lol)

I think if we would have hired a guy that watched the Habs in the last few years and knows the team like Roy for instance, he would have known whom to keep and whom to get rid of, he would have known what to do right away.

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07-16-2012, 08:26 PM
  #46
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I guess I'm the first to comment on this. Worst lineup ever
Can you elaborate?

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07-16-2012, 09:01 PM
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Most of those guys aren't making it to free agency.
We dont know

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07-16-2012, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
And since we're talking about 2013-14, I think we could then have this kind of starting line-up :

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Gallagher - Plekanec - Gionta
Leblanc - Eller - Prust
Moen - Galchenyuk - Bournival

Ex : White, Dumont

I really, really, really love how this looks. That's a pretty strong center line. There's a very good mix of youth and experience, grit and finesse, offensive talent and 2-way players, etc. (also 4 Quebecers!)

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Beaulieu - Diaz

Ex : Tinordi

Of course, that's if we are able to get rid of Gomez, Bourque and Kaberle. At worst, it will be cheaper next summer to buy out Gomez and Kaberle. Bourque could also be kept on the team if he gets a good season in 2012-13.

That might not be a very competitive team already in 2013-14, so I understand why some people say it will be a transition year again. But I think we will finally have the core of what the future Habs team will be.
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I guess I'm the first to comment on this. Worst lineup ever
I agree

Thats a good NHL 14 Easports lineup thought.

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07-16-2012, 09:34 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
And since we're talking about 2013-14, I think we could then have this kind of starting line-up :

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Gallagher - Plekanec - Gionta
Leblanc - Eller - Prust
Moen - Galchenyuk - Bournival

Ex : White, Dumont

I really, really, really love how this looks. That's a pretty strong center line. There's a very good mix of youth and experience, grit and finesse, offensive talent and 2-way players, etc. (also 4 Quebecers!)

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Beaulieu - Diaz

Ex : Tinordi

Of course, that's if we are able to get rid of Gomez, Bourque and Kaberle. At worst, it will be cheaper next summer to buy out Gomez and Kaberle. Bourque could also be kept on the team if he gets a good season in 2012-13.

That might not be a very competitive team already in 2013-14, so I understand why some people say it will be a transition year again. But I think we will finally have the core of what the future Habs team will be.
I really like the idea of that lineup, ex Beaulieu basically replaces Kaberle who IMO is not traded until Beaulieu is ready, and I see Tinordi taking a little longer to crack the lineup, just because its tougher being a stay at home D-men.

But if you want to get a bit more realistic, Gallagher, and Gionta are both RW, so they can't be on a line together, and IMO I think Gallagher needs 2 years in the AHL, perfect thing because that is when Gionta contract should be up.

Also you are missing a a right handed faceoff man, its very imporant, and something the Habs have lacked forever. And LL, White, and Dumont are all not good enough on faceoffs. Usually teams like to go with vets for that 4th line role, well one thing for sure is that Gally would be on the 4th line. If the team feels he is ready for the NHL, but not excatly ready for tough minutes, what you might see is have him play LW, ex a 3rd line of Gally-Eller-Leblanc, and slowly move him to wing, by either trading one of Eller,DD,Plek, or simply more Eller to LW, who is the only one of the 3 that would be moved to LW if the habs had to move one.

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07-16-2012, 09:45 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
It isn't tanking if we didn't actively get worst Bergevin actually addressed some needs on the bottom 6, 2nd PK wave and depth on the defense.
And Columbus signed Prospal and Wisniewski last summer.

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